Cultural Question For Copts on Islam

SuperCloud

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Okay, Copts, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, isn't the most pressing cultural issue within the Coptic sphere the relationship Copts have with their neighbors in the Islamic world?

And I've always wondered if Copts living in Egypt felt 90% cool, comfortable with Muslims in Egypt and the Middle East (or Africa), or like 90% not cool and comfortable with them?

I understand there are theological differences between the two (e.g., the divinity of Christ) but I'm trying to better understand the degree there is, if any, a cultural gap or closeness between the two?

I say that because on one hand I see Copts being martyred by some Muslims, then on the other hand I see some Muslims standing side-by-side Copts and Copts participating in the cultural and political life of Egypt.

Again... this might be a stupid question to some of you Copts but it's not something I fully understand (Coptic situation) residing all the way over here in the Midwest USA and reared blinded by Catholicism.


Thanks.
 

Tigger45

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This sub-forum is pretty slow so don't take offense if you don't get an answer right away. Although there are a couple OO members who are fairly knowledgeable that can help you out.
 
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dzheremi

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Hello. Questions like these are very general and can't be easily answered with regard to all Copts or all of Egypt. I have never lived in Egypt myself (I am a convert to the Coptic Orthodox Church from a Roman Catholic background), but everyone I know who has or still does tells me that things tend to move in waves or cycles: Sometimes it's better and sometimes it's worse. It's never truly equal, of course, but that doesn't say anything about Muslims and Copts in terms of their personal relationships. One thing I will say, and I hope this will be read diplomatically and without malice (I wouldn't want to get in trouble with my first post), is that when Muslims have in the past protected Christians, they are protecting them from other Muslims, and when Christians have protected Muslims likewise, they are also protecting them from other Muslims. Make of that what you will.

In terms of cultural origins and such, it is not controversial to say that the majority of Egypt's Muslims and Christians share the same (Coptic) origins. 'Copt' is, after all, just another word for 'Egyptian', so every Egyptian is a 'Copt' in that way (except, I guess, those from other ethnic backgrounds who are just as much Egyptian citizens but were never Copts, like the Nubians). The fact that most eventually apostasized to Islam is a relatively recent phenomenon when you are talking about a people whose origins date back to the beginning of time in that location. 'Copt' only came to mean specifically 'Egyptian Christian' after there were enough new Muslims from among the Egyptians to create two distinct religious identities from among one people, and still to this day you will find Muslims who claim their Pharaohnic heritage. I have even seen videos (only in Arabic, sorry) of Muslims who learned the Coptic language from priests, because they know that this is their true identity. The division in Egypt is one of religion, and of course of differing viewpoints of what it means to be Egyptian (i.e., should Egyptians look to their own indigenous past and consider themselves distinct from the "Arab world", or should they embrace pan-Arabism like Nasser, etc).

I don't know if that answers your question or not. Hopefully someone else can answer about the mood in Egypt today. Most people in my church go back fairly often for weddings, to visit family, etc., but it is hard to tell exactly how it is from their comments. Mostly the ones I have asked say that it's not like it used to be, and they don't feel comfortable there given the political atmosphere and the recent societal changes that this has caused. My friend who just returned from a month around Cairo said he felt like he was in Afghanistan or something. It was very discouraging for him, because he is very proud to be Egyptian. I'm sure others have different feelings, though.
 
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Shane R

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I am also a convert and not ethnically a Copt. The Coptic people have a diaspora that rivals the Jews in scope. Their may be a day when more Copts live outside of Egypt than in it.

One element that Copts use to differentiate themselves from their Arabic neighbors is the Coptic language. The natives of Egypt are nearly all bilingual as it is a necessity in Egyptian society; the government and the majority of people speak Arabic. When one goes into church or the home of older Copts the language shifts to Coptic. There is in many cases a resentment of Arabic similar to the way many Hispanic people view English in their home.
 
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SuperCloud

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Tiger, yeah, I recognized it was/is slow on this board. But I suppose there are not many Copts that use this English language discussion board. And most Arabs of the United States are of Lebanese descent and Eastern Rite Catholics. I'm hazarding a guess the population of Copts in the USA and the rest of the English speaking world, is much smaller.

dzheremi, I thought Copts are a separate ethnic group from the Arab Muslims in Egypt, with Copts claiming to be the descendants of the original Egyptians, who were eventually converted under the Apostle St. Mark?

I've read a bit of Christian history (mainly on Latin Catholicism or authored by their historians) from authors that were Catholic, Protestant, and Eastern Orthodox. I know that Alexandria used to be one of the 5 Great Holy Sees and that *Arab* who were Muslims eventually invaded Egypt taking over it. From an Eastern Orthodox historian (I believe by the name the person was Russian Orthodox) I learned that the Mongols offered an alliance to the Pope in Rome, European kings, to fight the Muslims, and even offered to re-take Egypt and give it back to the Christians. At this time most the Mongol Khans were married to Nesotorian Christian women, and most Mongol *scholars* were Nesotorian Christians. The Mongols had a falling out with Muslims when they beheaded one of the Mongol ambassadors sent to them, and sent his head back to the Mongols. Which unleashed the mighty Mongol horseman putting the Muslim forces on the run.

According to this Eastern Orthodox historian, the Pope declined the alliance with the Mongols, preferring Egypt remain ruled by Muslims rather than empowering the Coptic Christians, if Catholicism could not rule over them.

The Mongol had dispatched a Chinese Nesotorian Christian that was a scholar to the Pope and to Europe. Where apparently he wooed a lot of the European nobility. The Mongol Khan even named one of his sons after the Pope in an attempt to persuade the Pope to form alliance with the Mongols.

That's what I read anyways.

Shanethetheologian, thanks for the info. By the way, I have some admiration for Muslims in some ways. I most especially admire their ever faithful women. The Coptic women I admire the most. Their fidelity to Christ and the cross, to their Coptic ancestry and identity, is awing in light of what they face. From videos I've seen on Copts, Coptic girls and women not only risk brutal beatings to death from mobs of men like the Muslim Brotherhood, but they risk the occasional abduction, rapes, and forced conversions too. Yet, they will still brand the cross on their hand, like an American gang banger will brand the horns of the devil on his neck.
 
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dzheremi

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dzheremi, I thought Copts are a separate ethnic group from the Arab Muslims in Egypt, with Copts claiming to be the descendants of the original Egyptians, who were eventually converted under the Apostle St. Mark?

My point is that the Arab identity in Egypt (as I understand it, based on how Copts have explained it to me) came in with Islam. It is not the legitimate identity of most Egyptians, with regard to the recognized history of Egypt as it was before 642 AD and the Arab-Muslim invasion by Amr Ibn Al-'As and his army. Only after that did any native-born Egyptian begin to consider himself "Arab", and there are still many (Christian and Muslim alike) who do not easily accept this identity, since of course Egyptian history did not start in 642 AD when the Arab Muslims arrived en masse. "Copt" does not properly mean "Egyptian Christian", just "Egyptian". In their own language, the Copts would be called "Remnkemi", literally "People of Egypt". If you want to specify Egyptian Christian, you would say "Remnkemi en-Khristianos". But of course today, since most Egyptians have accepted the state-sanctioned version of history that leaves Egypt's Christian past out of the discussion of the country's identity, it is understood that when you say "Coptic", you are referring to an Egyptian Christian, and for that reason most Muslims would not call themselves "Copts", since they don't want to be associated with Christianity. But those Muslims who call themselves "Coptic Muslims" know what the Coptic Christians themselves have always known: That Coptic = Egyptian. But this does not sit well with people who want the Egyptian identity to be Arab and Muslim only, so they try to suppress this from being known among the general population.

I have met priests and monks in our church who have given lessons in Coptic language to Muslims (very serious ones, too; fully-veiled women and conservative men) who wanted to know it. :) But of course that is here in the West where you can generally call yourself whatever you want and not be subjected to danger from people who think you are somehow threatening their identity and religion.
 
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SuperCloud

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SuperCloud, there are dual patriarchates in Alexandria. The EO maintains a Chalcedonian patriarch and see in Alexandria to this day. The Coptic see is non-Chalcedonian but not mono-physite.

Okay, I understand some of those terms and concepts a bit (e.g., dual; EO; patriarch; see) but mostly I think you understand all that stuff much better than I do. Basically, you're saying there are two rival sees in Alexandria, Egypt with one being Eastern Orthodox and the other being Oriental Orthodox?

Do the EOs and OOs get along well, in general, globally? Better than the EOs and Roman Catholics relationships? I'm speaking more about the heads of the Churches not so much about lay people flipping burgers and picking up trash in the streets.
 
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SuperCloud

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My point is that the Arab identity in Egypt (as I understand it, based on how Copts have explained it to me) came in with Islam. It is not the legitimate identity of most Egyptians, with regard to the recognized history of Egypt as it was before 642 AD and the Arab-Muslim invasion by Amr Ibn Al-'As and his army. Only after that did any native-born Egyptian begin to consider himself "Arab", and there are still many (Christian and Muslim alike) who do not easily accept this identity, since of course Egyptian history did not start in 642 AD when the Arab Muslims arrived en masse. "Copt" does not properly mean "Egyptian Christian", just "Egyptian". In their own language, the Copts would be called "Remnkemi", literally "People of Egypt". If you want to specify Egyptian Christian, you would say "Remnkemi en-Khristianos". But of course today, since most Egyptians have accepted the state-sanctioned version of history that leaves Egypt's Christian past out of the discussion of the country's identity, it is understood that when you say "Coptic", you are referring to an Egyptian Christian, and for that reason most Muslims would not call themselves "Copts", since they don't want to be associated with Christianity. But those Muslims who call themselves "Coptic Muslims" know what the Coptic Christians themselves have always known: That Coptic = Egyptian. But this does not sit well with people who want the Egyptian identity to be Arab and Muslim only, so they try to suppress this from being known among the general population.

I have met priests and monks in our church who have given lessons in Coptic language to Muslims (very serious ones, too; fully-veiled women and conservative men) who wanted to know it. :) But of course that is here in the West where you can generally call yourself whatever you want and not be subjected to danger from people who think you are somehow threatening their identity and religion.

dz! :) thanks for that information, it was illuminating. Had no idea about any of that. Never heard the word or term "Remnkemi" before either.

But now that I think of it... I do recall reading Afro-centric literature produced by either pan-Africanists or the Nation of Islam, I think, that would refer to ancient Egyptians ans "Kemi" or Kemites" or something like that. Which resembles that latter half of that word "Remnkemi."

Afrocentric literature is the first literary genre that go me into reading many decades ago. I have long since branched out into a far broader range of genres of literature. But it's what first brought me to "a life of reading."
 
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SuperCloud

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Yes, "Kemi" (in various forms) means "black" in Coptic. This is not a racial claim about skin color for the Coptic people, though. Copts come in all colors.

Ah, so my observation about the word "Remnkemi" and my recollection, weren't too far off? :)

But wait... are you trying to tell me there are black Copts? :confused: You say they come in all colors.

I don't know why black Copts would surprise me, I have seen black Muslims (Arabs I assumed) in the UAE when I was in the Middle East. Speaking of which, I have fond memories of the UAE.

Can you explain a little what this "kemi" or black means or connotes to Copts in general, and what it means or connotes in relation to "Remn" in the word "Remnkemi."

Thanks. :)
 
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Gxg (G²)

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... are you trying to tell me there are black Copts? :confused: You say they come in all colors.

I don't know why black Copts would surprise me, I have seen black Muslims (Arabs I assumed) in the UAE when I was in the Middle East. Speaking of which, I have fond memories of the UAE.
A lot of people are shocked by Black Copts (as well as blacks in the Middle East, at all...including places like Iraq, as noted in #133 /#130 ). As it is, it's something that other Egyptians have noted to be problematic when the media presentations on who others are end up dominating how others approach people - stereotypes can and do make a world of difference. When I first visited a Coptic Orthodox Church, this was something that I was told to keep in mind - as one of the members (dark-skinned) noted how shocked others were whenever he told them of his experience coming from Egypt to move to Kansas and noting the extensive Egyptian population living there while also having to note to people that Egyptians were black as well. Some of the dynamics with knowing how Black people were connected to Egypt were things I grew up with when it came to seeing others who taught from an Afro-Centric perspective...but to see how deep things went for myself was another thing entirely. And since then, seeing the extent of how things go has been fascinating.

Some of this was shared more in-depth elsewhere, as seen here:

Science has proven conclusively that the human race originated in Africa. However, the ancient kings of Egypt were black as shown in extant art works from that era. Significantly, Moses was raised in the house of a black man and did not know he belonged to a different race. Therefore, it is a good bet that he, too, was black.
Gxg (G²);64263730 said:
There are differing types of Egyptians and that's something MANY in Egypt have noted for some time when it comes to the differing shades - as well as the differing skin variations in Africa in general. There are a lot of stereotypes others can have when it comes to the term "black" - and sadly, a lot of ignorance on what actually has occurred in Egypt historically.

Did the Egyptians UNIVERSALLY have features we'd deem to be Negroid traits? Not really. However, scientifically and culturally, it is the case that the Egyptians were a part-Black people and that there were many cases of having Negroid features present (far from a minority). That much is for certain - as it concerns the facts.

In antiquity, People were who they were, and black or white simply did not exist as differentiators. ...although acknowledging it was not a problem as much as in our times. In ancient times color was not something that was the sole factor in determining opportunities as it was in later times. One solid history book on the issue that may be of blessing to you on the subject is entitled Before Color Prejudice: The Ancient View of Blacks





As said before, I've been amazed at how many Egyptians have had to correct others when it comes to people thinking to be Egyptian is light-skinned and yet they've either NEVER been to Egypt or had Egyptian friends. For many Egyptian communities, as I was told by light-skinned Egyptians in the Coptic Orthodox Church community I was blessed to interact with when they shared their stories of loved ones harmed (and later verifying in the reports ), it's a big point of bitterness when someone says something as limited as "Well, you dark skinned Egyptians simply were from others who moved in Egypt" (without any historical evidence) while saying the light-skinned ones were always present. That has never been the case whatsoever...

There were Egyptians of Darker complexion that were always present just as others who were light-skinned were present - others who moved into Egypt that were dark-skinned just as others who were light-skinned (especially when seeing the influx of Arabs into Egyptian territory) moving into Egypt.













Africa has seven distinct skin tones with lighter brown being often associated with "Arabs" that live in the Middle East ....but as happens unfortunately, all people with the same shade tend to get grouped together politically, racially and geographically.

When people hear that someone is Black, they automatically think that means someone is dark-skinned...due predominately to media representations of what black culture is like and the ways others have often stereotyped things. However, you have many Africans that're light-skinned, as is the case with many in Egypt today and other places.

One can consider those present in Africa on the southern tip, such as
Khoisa people. The term Khoisa is actually a unifying term for two similar groups: the foraging San and pastoral Khoi.One thing you might notice is their surprisingly light skin tone for being a southern African group.


Khoisan people of Africa.


tumblr_lk2ye1tSWr1qbclmp.jpg
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tumblr_lk2ydu2hke1qbclmp.jpg


sized_afrika2008_1188.jpg



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It always depends on which part of Africa one goes to that determines the skin tone they have. Other Africans have been there for a VERY long time.


afnewlnd.gif



Gxg (G²);64123680 said:
On Egypt, the black roots of the land are very well-documented. Northern Africa is full of others who are black and have been noted for being dark. Even in Egypt this has been the case....often an issue when people outside of the culture assume All Egyptians are light-skinned and end up shocked seeing the numerous cases of Egyptians that are dark, just as there were Dark skinned Pharoahs depicted throughout history...many in fact. Obviously, there are many Egyptian Jews who have lighter complexion....and many are not aware of that (more). But the ones that are darker often get overlooked. Had that confirmed once before when talking to light-skinned Coptic Christians at a Coptic Orthodox church I visited and they alerted the visitors how often people assumed all Egyptians looked like them, one of them noting how one of the churches he was with shocked others when they went in/saw many looking black....and it was assumed that they weren't Egyptian There are many not understanding of some of the racial issues within Egypt, as it concerns those of darker complexion and their connection with black culture...and others have often noted how the Egyptians were initially black when considering the Nubians....powerful and wealthy kings/Pharoahs who controlled large territories along the Nile and whose land was known as the Kingdom of Kush.---though there has been much historical debate on that. For exampls, places to investigate can be found under the names of Ancient Africa's Black Kingdoms or Black Pharaohs - National Geographic Magazine. Additionally, One can either go here or One can go here for example of where connections between Egypt and blacks have often come up



tumblr_m8k86lBbXV1rd1aldo1_500.jpg


A81.jpg


......As another noted best, "Many people forget that Egypt is part of the continent of Africa and only think of the modern state as part of the Middle-East. ...This is because Arabic is the main language and the country is predominantly Islamic following the settlement there in AD 642 of people of Islamic culture.... However, there are many links between ancient Egyptian and modern African cultures, ranging from objects such as headrests to hairstyles such as the side lock, and this and other evidence support the idea that it was an African culture in addition to being geographically in Africa.". There were other threads in the past which sought to go into detail covering the issue (here and here).

Arabs hail from Ishmael - who was born out of union BETWEEN Abraham and Hagar (an Egyptian), with Ishmael moving elsewhere and having a differing ancestrial line being developed than the Egyptians. Egypt came before Ishmael (Genesis 16, Genesis 25 ) - even though Ishmael's mother got a wife for him from Egypt later ( Genesis 21:8-21 ....more here, here, and here) - and later, Esau married into Ishmael's line to please his father Isaac when he realized Issac and his wife hated how Esau married Caananite Women rather than people close to Abraham's line).



 
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Gxg (G²)

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Okay, Copts, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, isn't the most pressing cultural issue within the Coptic sphere the relationship Copts have with their neighbors in the Islamic world?

And I've always wondered if Copts living in Egypt felt 90% cool, comfortable with Muslims in Egypt and the Middle East (or Africa), or like 90% not cool and comfortable with them?

I understand there are theological differences between the two (e.g., the divinity of Christ) but I'm trying to better understand the degree there is, if any, a cultural gap or closeness between the two?

I say that because on one hand I see Copts being martyred by some Muslims, then on the other hand I see some Muslims standing side-by-side Copts and Copts participating in the cultural and political life of Egypt.

Again... this might be a stupid question to some of you Copts but it's not something I fully understand (Coptic situation) residing all the way over here in the Midwest USA and reared blinded by Catholicism.


Thanks.
Not certain as to how much research you may have done on the subject prior - but on the issue, the best place to start (if wanting to know how the Copts and the Muslims interact) would be to examine what some of the Bishops of the Church have said on the matter. There's His Holiness Pope Shenouda I in what he noted. Specifically, following the death of Pope Shenouda III, here is an exclusive interview conducted with the 117th Coptic pope from 1996 that discusses the rise of fundamentalist Islam in the middle east, the persecution of Coptic christians in Egypt, and the relationship between Copts and the rest of the Christian faith.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vl8KyO8DruI

The Pope that followed him is another to consider - as Tawadros II has spoken out against the nation's Islamist leadership, giving a cautious but unusually critical commentary

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1vEPJJaYU90

Additionally, Bishop Angaelos is a big example of someone who can help a lot with your questions:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1j2GB4pe1sM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GI9pQ5oCsyc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SLsfIZGwDFc

More was shared on him and what other Copts have shared elsewhere...
Gxg (G²);63974041 said:
May the Lord bless them and may we not forget what they're going through or treat it as if it's of no consequence. And the same in regards to many of the Muslims who've been harmed by the same people destroying the world of Ancient Christianity amongst the Copts in Egypt

One of my dear sisters in Christ (who's Eastern Orthodox) was once conversing with an Orthodox Deacon about world events. Somehow, Egypt came up, and the Deacon said, "You know, given how hard things are for the Copts, I expect most of the Copt community will have left Egypt in the coming decades." That was under Mubarak.

And yet the Copts have been truly amazing in how they've handled things. Bishop Angaelos is making a world of difference, as he is even-tempered and is very much about inter-faith dialouge/ecumenical work. (shared more in depth here in #1 /#42 ). Complex as Islam/its origins are (more shared here and here /here), the man doesn't seem to demonize all of those within Islam---and Bishop Angaelos seems to have more of the mindset that Paul had in Acts 17, where he sought to find common ground with those he was witnessing to in Athens before trying to show them where they may've missed it. Bishop Angaelos - who describes the Egyptian bombing as "unprecedented" - still seeks to do as Paul noted in I Peter 2:11-25 when it comes to living godly lives amongst the pagans and submitting to government as best as one can so that one's faith will shine. His example of how he handled himself when discussing the bombing in Egypt and threats made to the UK and other European churches by other radicals is still one of the most astounding witnesses I've seen ...and his interviews have always been refreshing.

As he made clear on Muslims in one interview (for one brief excerpt):
CT: There are a number of legal requirements that hinder Christian freedom, such as the need for permits to build churches. Do you see the solution being government-led, with changes to the legal framework?

Bishop Angaelos: It has to be a combined effort. The church has its role, the government has its role and as long as we stick to our role faithfully everything will be fine. The government has a certain onus on it to provide a social structure that allows for people to grow and integrate positively. The church has a role to maintain people in their faith. We don’t want to turn into a political party. As a bishop of the church I don’t want to be a political activist, I have other things to do. I would much rather lead my people in prayer. But, and we see it in Scripture, advocating for people is a responsibility and calling for justice is a responsibility.


CT: It seems it is not the majority of Muslims who are against Christians but rather a hard line section of the Muslim community that is attacking Christians. How should the church approach them?

Bishop Angaelos: There are two major components. The first is the minority radical element and [change] will have to come from their leadership and a sense of civil order where if you go and commit a certain crime you will be brought to justice, whereas in the past few decades so many crimes have been committed and no one is brought to justice. So there is a civil side of things. But then you are speaking about the mass majority and I agree that not every Muslim wants to kill a Christian, but there is an increased polarisation and radicalisation that comes from the few and this is partly due to massive poverty and illiteracy and a social void in some areas and some people try to jump into that void and try to fill it.


Very excellent example of calling out that which is wrong...and yet realizing the need for Christians to work with the local governments with what they have. And for other interviews:





Some may think the Coptic Church is akin to tolerating bullies when it comes to trying to work with Islamic Governments/the rules they set....and in the minds of many, fighting back is the ONLY Reasonable option.


And in many ways, many in Islam can be bullies who need to be stopped.

Part of me wonders, however, about the other side of bullying....and that's loving the bully till you win him over to your side...as many Muslims have noted when it came to their seeing the love of Christ so manifest in the Bible and through other Christians that they were won over from much of what they saw in Islam. If Jesus said for believers to love their enemies and do good to those who hate you ( Luke 6:27-36)---and said that mercy was always reflective of what it meant to be Sons of the Most High--then I'd wonder who'd be reflecting the Lord more when it comes to how bullies are addressed. I don't think self-defense is a negative necessarily, as I don't see where Christ advocated that in the scriptures and absolute pacifism is something disciples of Christ are bound to walk in.....but on the same token, there can be alot of danger occurring when people try to fight fire with fire...and be just as aggressive as those coming against them.


People can say they'll beat up a bully to put him in check--only to end up prolonging a conflict/making a bully more determined to wipe them out and leading to a blood bath or friends of the person bullied being harm as a result (as has happened in many schools fights). And likewise, for many, to respond with fighting/violent speech toward all in Islam is not something that'll lead to true peace. For the real issue is spiritual----and for many Muslims, the LOVE of Christ is what they need to see. As the old saying goes, "The best way to get rid of enemies is to make them into friends." There was a story I once heard of where a pastor asked his son to name the greatest superhero--and his son said "Superman!!!!", to which the pastor disagreed. When the son noted that Superman could beat up/destory all of the bad guys, the pastor noted back that only Jesus could make bad guys turn into good ones....and then work for Him.



........For those Coptic Christians who've had to deal extensively with Muslims and yet won them through the Love of Christ, I salute them---and on love, I agree with those Coptic Orthodox who've noted that practical love is a witness to the love of Christ. Witness is not withheld where it is needed most. ..and conversions coerced by force or finances contradicts the very nature of saving faith. Saving faith is a free embrace of Jesus as our Savior, Lord, and highest Treasure.[/COLOR]

And as one of my dear sisters said best in regards to the Copts and Bishop Anagelos (from #74 ):

I do think much could be learned by those in the west if they would turn to the experience of eastern Christians; those in the east have over 1,000 years of experience with Islam. There have been periods of benefit (during the Iconoclastic crisis), and great pain. In all, the relationship has not been consistent, but a certain ability to co-exist has occurred on a personal level.

Christos Yannaras has characterized the struggle between the West and Islam as having its source not in a radical difference, but as a sort of "sibling rivalry", where one seeks to differentiate oneself from another that is similar. Though this may be a generalization, it is interesting to consider.
(In "The Church in Post-Communist Europe", not available online - sorry.)

Each moment, and each situation has its answer -- and for the best answer one must be open first to God, and likewise to the other (and in this to make God who is wholly "other" and the other person the subject, not the object).

Sometimes, that includes learning from others and the past ... and witnesses like Bishop Angaelos :)


Even though relations are strained, there are still others seeking to be examples of what the Lord desired. From what I've often seen, there were many groups that have often noted how they had no desire to respond in violence whenever tension arises...as is the case with the Copts in Egypt and how they've often sought to live in harmony with Muslims--with many Muslims desiring to do the same even though others from Radical Isalm make it difficult and cause drama on all sides, including getting others incensed outside of Egypt. It requires a lot of examination when it comes to the complex interactions between Muslims and Christians, including the reality of believers from Muslim backgrounds who live in Islamic systems/share aspects of commonality with Muslims while trying to reach out to them as many have for centuries, especially seeing how the early Church saw Islam as a heresy..with much conversation/dialogue and peaceful times occurring....and others are seeing the kind of relationships people had with Muslims in the early church and how RADICAL Islam preys upon people not aware of that).


Muslims seeking to support Coptic or Oriental Christians is not a new reality - just as it's not new that there have been times Christians have harmed Muslims. For the Copts, it's a big deal to walk out what Christ noted when it came to being a neighbor to those in need - be it Muslim or Christian.

For other places to investigate, one may wish to consider places like Muslims vs Christians in Egypt.
 
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dzheremi

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Ah, so my observation about the word "Remnkemi" and my recollection, weren't too far off? :)

But wait... are you trying to tell me there are black Copts? :confused: You say they come in all colors.

Yes, there are. I see Gxg (G²) has dealt with this reality in depth in reply, and I cannot add any more to that. But I have met Copts who would at least be classified as "African-American" in an American context, for whatever that means. But issues of race and racism in Egypt aren't necessarily analogous to racial classifications or thinking in other places, so it takes a lot of undoing preconceptions and bias to hopefully start seeing Egyptians as they see themselves, whether we're talking about Copts, Nubians, or any other people who belong to that land and its church.

Can you explain a little what this "kemi" or black means or connotes to Copts in general, and what it means or connotes in relation to "Remn" in the word "Remnkemi."

"Kemi" is, like I posted earlier, one of the reflexes of the word for "black" in Coptic (I've seen it written a few different ways, and since of course Coptic is not anyone's native language anymore it is difficult to say what shades of meaning, if any, might exist between "kemi", "kami", "kimi", or if these are variations due to dialect or scribal idiosyncrasy; they are listed together in both of the dictionaries I have). Often you can find reference in dictionaries or grammars to the "kemi" in Remnkemi meaning "black" with reference to the black soil of the Nile flood plain, as opposed to the red soil found elsewhere in Egypt. I suppose that is fine as one explanation (it wouldn't be the first time a country was known according to some feature of its geography or geology; Bahrain, Guatemala, Chad, etc. are all named likewise), though it tends to bother some Afrocentrist authors who take it to be a "whitewashing" of Egypt's black African identity, which is another thing I have not seen among Copts, though I have yet to see any Afrocentrist literature written by Copts anyway, so that might be a moot point. At any rate no Coptic person I have met thinks of himself as "white", in the American sense of that word. I can virtually guarantee you that if you ask a Coptic person "What does it mean to be Coptic? Who are the Copts?", they will answer "Egyptian", not "black", "white", "brown", etc. That's what I meant when I wrote that "kemi" meaning "black" is not a claim about skin color for Coptic people. It's really not thought of in that way.

Anyway, "Remnkemi" is a compound word made up of "Rem" (or in some dialects "Rom" or "Lom") meaning "man" or "person" -- e.g., one of the words we used to refer to God in Coptic is "Pi-mai-romi", meaning "Lover of Mankind". The n- between 'Rem' and 'kemi' in the word is the genitive marker ('of'), so the whole word can be read as the phrase "Person/People of Egypt", or, if you will, "People of the Black Land/the Black Soil" (understood to mean Egypt).
 
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SuperCloud

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Gxg, I thought I could type out some long posts at times. I think you have me thoroughly beat. ^_^

I've been reading over some of what you posted (links/vids) in the thread on guilt and fear of hell, as well as this thread. It's a lot though, so, I haven't really responded.

With respects to this thread, thanks for some of that additional information on the ancestry of the Egyptians and the history of their varying phenotypes. Some of what you posted in this thread I was already more or less aware of--including about the lighter hued San people.

Perhaps because I've only seen the lighter hued (more brownish or dark olive) Copts in photos and on youtube videos... maybe that's why I simply assumed the darker and black phenotypes of some of the ancient Egyptians no longer was an inherited phenotype trait. That was probably a stupid assumption, but I don't think I gave it much thought being all the way over here in the City of Milwaukee in the USA. I only recall one Egyptian I've met in Milwaukee and he was professor of developmental economics I had. He looked "Arab" to me. What we Americans of as Arab.

dzheremi, I can see how Copts would have a different comprehension of what Copts are and how various terms like "black" are culturally constructed. I'm something of a slight Brazilophile and their views of "white" tend to be more encompassing of darker hues than we in the USA accept. Along similar lines their views of "black" tends to be as narrow as our views of "white" are. Furthermore, they like the rest of Latin America use the term "moreno" which encompasses phenotypes as diverse as the San people and Fulani of Africa to the brunettes of Italy. So, Brazilians like to say "All Brazilians are morneos." Albeit, that's not true given they have white blondes and very dark hued blacks in Brazil, both of whom do not fit in that broad "middle" of "moreno" as mestizos, Fulani, Chinese, and Arabs do.

But that was a pretty good explanation you gave. Thanks.
 
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Gxg (G²)

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Gxg, I thought I could type out some long posts at times. I think you have me thoroughly beat. ^_^
It depends on circumstance - long is long (and there are others who do more than me)

I've been reading over some of what you posted (links/vids) in the thread on guilt and fear of hell, as well as this thread. It's a lot though, so, I haven't really responded.
One never needs to feel as if they need to respond to all things all at once - it's a matter of taking time for others and for differing people that are quick at processing all of what's present.
With respects to this thread, thanks for some of that additional information on the ancestry of the Egyptians and the history of their varying phenotypes. Some of what you posted in this thread I was already more or less aware of--including about the lighter hued San people.

Perhaps because I've only seen the lighter hued (more brownish or dark olive) Copts in photos and on youtube videos... maybe that's why I simply assumed the darker and black phenotypes of some of the ancient Egyptians no longer was an inherited phenotype trait. That was probably a stupid assumption, but I don't think I gave it much thought being all the way over here in the City of Milwaukee in the USA. I only recall one Egyptian I've met in Milwaukee and he was professor of developmental economics I had. He looked "Arab" to me. What we Americans of as Arab.
A lot of things are based primarily on stereotypes we all have of other people - and for many, depending on how much they actually get around with things, their experience can be limited. It's like people assuming no Black people live in Wisconsin or up in the North-Western U.S - but a lot of that goes back to how we choose to see others.
 
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