Your problem with Islam.

Rationalt

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(The Noble Qur'an, 5:48) “To thee (Muhammad) We sent the scripture (Qur'an) in truth confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety.”

(The Noble Qur'an, 10:94) “If thou (Muhammad) are in doubt as to what We have revealed, then ask the People of the Book.”

The verse 10:94 was for muhammad.The surah 10 was meccan where muhammad was trying to win legitimacy and hence tried to cozy up with "people of book".Also during that period he didn't have any fighting strength.

When muhammad became strong he brought up verses that say "people of book" are perverts .

Although if what is said contradicts the Qur'an the Qur'an takes preference. But we do not say the previous Prophets are not to be followed.

OTOH,quran explicitly says following muhammad is following Allah.Nothing about MUSLIMS following other prophets .
 
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WoodrowX2

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The verse 10:94 was for muhammad.The surah 10 was meccan where muhammad was trying to win legitimacy and hence tried to cozy up with "people of book".Also during that period he didn't have any fighting strength.

When muhammad became strong he brought up verses that say "people of book" are perverts .



OTOH,quran explicitly says following muhammad is following Allah.Nothing about MUSLIMS following other prophets .

You are over looking that surah 5 is from Medina

(The Noble Qur'an, 5:48) “To thee (Muhammad) We sent the scripture (Qur'an) in truth confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety.”
 
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Rationalt

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You are over looking that surah 5 is from Medina

No, I didn't overlook surah 5.

(The Noble Qur'an, 5:48) “To thee (Muhammad) We sent the scripture (Qur'an) in truth confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety.”

You should actually read the entire surah starting from ayat 12.That medinan surah pours hatred on Jews and christians BUT, military action was not yet proclaimed untill surah 9 where jews and christians are to be subjugated by force (9:29-30) .

Here is the link to surah 5 Center for Muslim-Jewish Engagement


The funny thing is if allah guarded (5:48) the previous scriptures then there is no need for new scripture.As usual Muhammad forgets about it in later surahs.
 
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WoodrowX2

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No, I didn't overlook surah 5.



You should actually read the entire surah starting from ayat 12.That medinan surah pours hatred on Jews and christians BUT, military action was not yet proclaimed untill surah 9 where jews and christians are to be subjugated by force (9:29-30) .

Here is the link to surah 5 Center for Muslim-Jewish Engagement


The funny thing is if allah guarded (5:48) the previous scriptures then there is no need for new scripture.As usual Muhammad forgets about it in later surahs.


Surah 5 was revealed over a period of time about 6-7 years after the Migration to Medina, The conditions had become somewhat dangerous for the Muslims.

The Surah covers several topics each has to be understood seperatly. Fron the Tafsir of Maududi. (I dislike his political views but of the modern scholars he appears to be the most historically knowledgable)

From his Tafsir

Topics and their Interconnection

The Believers have been exhorted to fulfill scrupulously all of their obligations and follow the regulations prescribed by the Divine Law about food, sex, Salat, justice, etc. 1 - 10

The Muslims have been warned to guard against the errors of their predecessors; they should follow the Right Path and avoid the bad example of the Jews and the Christians, who broke their Covenants and went astray into evil ways. They, in their turn, have been admonished to give up their wrong ways and accept Islam. 11 - 26

The story of the two sons of Adam has been related to reproach the Jews for their plot to kill the Holy Prophet and his Companions. (v. 11 & E.N. 30). The story has also been used to emphasize the sanctity of human life. 27 - 32

To achieve this object, punishments have been prescribed for those who create chaos in the Islamic State, and the Believers have been urged to exert their utmost to establish the Right Way; the sanctity of property has also been emphasized. 33 - 40

The Holy Prophet (and through him the Muslims) has been reassured that he should not mind the enmity, the evil designs and the machinations of the Jews, but continue exerting his utmost to establish the Right Way in accordance with the Guidance of the Quran; for nothing better could be expected from those who had forsaken their own Torah. He should deal with the Christians likewise, for they, too, had forsaken their Gospel. 41 - 50

In view of the degenerate moral condition of the Jews and the Christians, the Believers have been warned not to make them their friends and confidants. Likewise they should be on their guard against the evil designs of the hypocrites, the disbelievers and the like and should rely on the true Believers alone. The people of the Book have, in their turn been exhorted to give up their enmity and adopt the right attitude, for they cannot get salvation without this. 51 - 69

The theme of the corruptions of the Jews and Christians has been resumed. The Christians especially have been reproved for their errors in regard to the doctrine of Tauhid. At the same time they have been preferred to the hard hearted Jews, for there are among them some who are more inclined towards the Truth. 70 - 86

In this portion of the Surah, further regulations about the lawful and the un-lawful, in addition to those contained in vv. 1 - 10, have been given. 87 - 108

At the end of the Surah, the mention of the conversation that will take place between Allah and His Prophets on the Day of Judgment, has been made for the benefit of the erring people to serve as a corrective to their creeds. The conversation with Prophet Christ has been cited as a specimen to warn particularly the Christians, who profess to believe in him, and generally all those people who put false hopes in their Prophets, etc. 109 - 119

Conclusion: "O man-kind! The Sovereignty of the heavens and the earth belongs to Allah: therefore you should become His true servants and fear Him, for He has full powers over everything." 120

SOURCE

I still come to the conclusion that all the Prophets(PBUT) are to be obeyed
 
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Why do not the Islamic states see how this reflects on them and start a movement to clean up their own messes?

What Islaamic states? The corrupt dictators either propped up or supported by the West?

There are no voices crying out against ISIS among the islamic general public. No demonstrations, no news conferences, no world forums meeting to condemn ISIS.
First of all, why should Muslims say it's wrong? I have no need to apologize for or condemn something I didn't do. I don't ask all white men/women or all Christians or all Republicans/Democrats to apologize for something that some members of their "groups" did.

But even asking for condemnations is ridiculous. Muslims globally are no more responsible for the actions of ISIS than British Jews are for Israeli war-crimes. During the Gaza offensive no one asked British Jews to apologise for the Israeli bombs that killed hundreds of children. This is despite the fact that British Jews do go and fight in the IDF.

Demanding that Muslims condemn ISIS is xenophobic because it implies that they are sympathetic to the terrorist group unless they state otherwise. It implies all Muslims are responsible for the actions of terrorists. And there’s a double-standard because other minorities aren’t held to the same standard.

The demand that more Muslims ‘must condemn ISIS’ is racist and ridiculous | Liberal Conspiracy

Having said that, you're absolutely wrong in your claim. Many Muslims have condemned ISIS, including Muslim fighters (i.e rebels) in Syria.

But we do here stuff as in your post where "blame non-Muslims for whatever the muslims do if it disgraces the religion of islam".
It's more like stating the facts. We (well, our Western governments) support terrible people but are surprised when different groups of people (including religious ones) decide to fight against them?

What if Christians did that??

They would never get away with it.
They get away with all sorts of things like dropping atomic bombs, drones, depleted uranium, etc.

But then the religious affiliation of those criminals is not important because....they're not Muslim!
 
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Rationalt

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I find it hard to believe that Muslims don't want to harm non muslims because muslims are permitted to lie to non believers they call it Taqiyya and Kitman. Since lying is permitted how do we ever really know what Islamic intentions are.

It doesn't take much to uncover the truth.

Check the quranic tafsir contents posted above.

The highlights:



The Muslims have been warned to guard against the errors of their predecessors; they should follow the Right Path and avoid the bad example of the Jews and the Christians, who broke their Covenants and went astray into evil ways. They, in their turn, have been admonished to give up their wrong ways and accept Islam. 11 - 26


The Islamic sword is perpetually hanging. The Quran makes muslims feel everybody else is evil and they have the right to Attack them.

It is no surprise those terrorist muslims quote quran before engaging in jihadi activities.
 
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steve_bakr

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Surah 5 was revealed over a period of time about 6-7 years after the Migration to Medina, The conditions had become somewhat dangerous for the Muslims.

The Surah covers several topics each has to be understood seperatly. Fron the Tafsir of Maududi. (I dislike his political views but of the modern scholars he appears to be the most historically knowledgable)

From his Tafsir

SOURCE

I still come to the conclusion that all the Prophets(PBUT) are to be obeyed

It is not my impression that what you reference is to be taken as universal statements against Christians and Jews. Many statements may reflect conflicts in the Medina period, so I have trouble with the idea that Suras from Medina "abrogate" those from Mecca in some universal sense. If anything, the earlier Surahs are more universal and may even be said to abrogate later statements that were made in the midst of specific conflicts.
 
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steve_bakr

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I find it hard to believe that Muslims don't want to harm non muslims because muslims are permitted to lie to non believers they call it Taqiyya and Kitman. Since lying is permitted how do we ever really know what Islamic intentions are.

My understanding of the original intention of Taqiyya is that it permited Muslims under the pain of torture to say what the torturers wanted to hear in order to save their lives.

It was never intended to be a license to lie to non-Muslims. All wars involve strategies of deception, which is another subject, but my understanding is that Muslims are to be honorable in their dealings with non-Muslims.
 
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It is not my impression that what you reference is to be taken as universal statements against Christians and Jews. Many statements may reflect conflicts in the Medina period, so I have trouble with the idea that Suras from Medina "abrogate" those from Mecca in some universal sense. If anything, the earlier Surahs are more universal and may even be said to abrogate later statements that were made in the midst of specific conflicts.

Not only is the Quran lacking in completeness it was not put in chronological order. Without some outside input people do not know for sure what verses correspond with which activities of Mohammad.

Did Uthman intentionally confuse the issue? Did he want a book on war and conquering and not a book on spirituality?

How much of the real Quran did he destroy?

You can not say what you think. It was Mohammad who said later verses were the better verses and not the converse. But again because of the incompleteness of the Quran we do not know which verses were truly revealed as the later verses without outside records.

Is Uthman at fault again purposely confusing chronology issues?
 
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steve_bakr

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Not only is the Quran lacking in completeness it was not put in chronological order. Without some outside input people do not know for sure what verses correspond with which activities of Mohammad.

Did Uthman intentionally confuse the issue? Did he want a book on war and conquering and not a book on spirituality?

How much of the real Quran did he destroy?

You can not say what you think. It was Mohammad who said later verses were the better verses and not the converse. But again because of the incompleteness of the Quran we do not know which verses were truly revealed as the later verses without outside records.

Is Uthman at fault again purposely confusing chronology issues?

The order of the Quran is approximately from the longer Suras at the beginning to the shorter Suras towards the end. It is an imposition of someone else's preconceptions to expect the Quran to be organized chronologically.

There is a lot of historical material that provides important background information for the chapters in the Quran.

Well, yes, I can have a position regarding abrogation and express it. In my view, many have distorted and abused the conventional view of abrogation to the detriment of Islam's basically peaceful nature.
 
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