If Protestantism is true, why they are not united? (2)

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by MoreCoffee

Have you read Hebrews chapter ten?

Verse twenty five will answer your question.
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I already know that. I responded to Mama Kidigo on that point and am working on a new thread to address the context and application of that very point.

Heb 10:25
Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more...as ye see the day approaching.

The underscored and the fact it was addressed to the Hebrews is of great importance for proper exegesis. The difference IS in the dispensations.

What day is that?

http://www.christianforums.com/t7426625-10/#post56463318
LLoJ's Hebrew Chapt 10 translation

Rotherham] 10:25
Not having forsaken/egkataleiponteV <1459> (5723) the assembling of ourselves together, according to the custom of some.
But exhorting, and by so much the more as this, by as much as ye behold the day drawing nigh.

Textus Rec.) Hebrews 10:25
mh egkataleiponteV thn episunagwghn eautwn kaqwV eqoV tisin alla parakalounteV kai tosoutw mallon osw blepete eggizousan thn hmeran

Strong's Number G1459 matches the Greek &#7952;&#947;&#954;&#945;&#964;&#945;&#955;&#949;&#8055;&#960;&#969; (egkataleip&#333, which occurs 10 times in 9 verses in the Greek concordance of the

1459. egkataleipo eng-kat-al-i'-po from 1722 and 2641; to leave behind in some place, i.e. (in a good sense) let remain over, or (in a bad sense) to desert:--forsake, leave.
2596. kata kat-ah' a primary particle; (prepositionally) down (in place or time), in varied relations
3007. leipo li'-po a primary verb; to leave, i.e. (intransitively or passively) to fail or be absent:--be destitute (wanting), lack.


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[BobRyan]

Paul prophesied that when he died ravenous wolves would come in and even of the churches own elders whom he was adressing would fall away and lead men away from faith...does not sound much like just trust the church...not to me

Acts 20 'i know that after my departure...that from among your own selves men will arise teaching strange doctrine...seeking to draw disciples after themselves"

1Tim 1 - Timothy instructed to stay on at Ephesus in an attempt to squash the rising heresy.

Titus 1 -- Titus commanded to train up elders to help stop the rising heresy within the church.

3John 1 - John reports that the heresy was taking over entire churches.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[sculleywr]

Acts 20 'i know that after my departure...that from among your own selves men will arise teaching strange doctrine...seeking to draw disciples after themselves"

1Tim 1 - Timothy instructed to stay on at Ephesus in an attempt to squash the rising heresy.

Titus 1 -- Titus commanded to train up elders to help stop the rising heresy within the church.

3John 1 - John reports that the heresy was taking over entire churches.

in Christ,

Bob

The existence of heresy in the city or even among people does not mean that there wasn't one united Church. In fact, the very fact that Paul was able to not only write those letters with the expectation that his writings be heeded, but that those letters would then be accepted to the point of eventually being recognized as Scripture, is evidence against the idea of a divided early Church.

This practice of Church leaders writing instructions to churches that weren't under their purview carried from the Apostles onto those they ordained, and at least one had his gospel included in Scripture (John-Mark, as far as is evidenced, was not sent directly by Christ). This inter-church communication was evidence of a unified early Church.

Furthermore, the Apostolic method of universal church councils (Acts 15) was followed throughout history, eventually building up so large that 8 were recognized as completely ecumenical.

These three are evidence against a divided early Church. Sure, there were practical differences, and they always struggled against heresy, but there was a common government.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Saint Paul's warning about error and deceitful elders despoiling the faithful and harming the Church has played itself out time and time again in the history of the Church and one of its fruits is the vast array of divided groups of Christians who - through tradition - are separated from the Church and have little or no desire to be reconciled with her. This thread has as its thesis that if the doctrine of these many denominations were true then they would be able to unite under the banner of the truth that is in the doctrines that they all share but the truth is different from that fantasy. The truth is that there is only a very tiny core of beliefs that all of those denominations share and that tiny core is not sufficient for union. That is why there are three major forms of church government among the denominations (Episcopal, Presbyterian, and Congregational) and two types of baptism and several types of Lord's supper and dozens of eschatological views and several views of how one is to be saved and several views of how one is called by God to salvation and several views of what will become of the heathen who never heard the gospel and so forth, on and one until only the name of Jesus Christ and possibly one or two other facts remain in the tiny core.

 

[Rick Otto]

Doctrinal and liturgical conformity are one type of unity.

 

[Targaryen]

Saint Paul's warning about error and deceitful elders despoiling the faithful and harming the Church has played itself out time and time again in the history of the Church and one of its fruits is the vast array of divided groups of Christians who - through tradition - are separated from the Church and have little or no desire to be reconciled with her. This thread has as its thesis that if the doctrine of these many denominations were true then they would be able to unite under the banner of the truth that is in the doctrines that they all share but the truth is different from that fantasy. The truth is that there is only a very tiny core of beliefs that all of those denominations share and that tiny core is not sufficient for union. That is why there are three major forms of church government among the denominations (Episcopal, Presbyterian, and Congregational) and two types of baptism and several types of Lord's supper and dozens of eschatological views and several views of how one is to be saved and several views of how one is called by God to salvation and several views of what will become of the heathen who never heard the gospel and so forth, on and one until only the name of Jesus Christ and possibly one or two other facts remain in the tiny core.

That is the sad part of the Reformation, how it veered away so sharply from what the core of the reform was to be about and turned into a grab-bag of different policies.

 

[Albion]

Yes, but there's nothing unusual about this development. When there is a terrible wrong and the folks in charge refuse to hear of any reform, a buildup of opposition develops until there is a bigger outburst than would have happened if the "powers that be" had accepted and made the reforms in the first place.

The fact that there may therefore be a range of reforming movements and ideas, not all in agreement with each other, is unfortunate. It dissipates the force of the reform movement, but it would be silly to conclude that every one of them must, therefore, be wrong or that the need for reform wasn't real.

 

[MoreCoffee]

so selling indulgences was a terrible wrong that warranted the 30 years war and a host of other wars and civil wars because paying money for a piece of paper was more terrible than any war, right?

 

[Targaryen]

so selling indulgences was a terrible wrong that warranted the 30 years war and a host of other wars and civil wars because paying money for a piece of paper was more terrible than any war, right?

The political fallout that led to war was a by-product of the Reformation,yes. another sad and unfortunate event. But, to be clear it wasn't the indulgences and the reforms that Luther and others wanted that led to war persay so much as it was the overt political nature of the Papacy of the time and how it played a role in other kindgom's policies....there was a political advantage for those kingdoms to rebel against the Pope's political needs.

To be fair, some of it was justified and some of it was not...hence 30 years of atrocity.

 

[MoreCoffee]

The political fallout that led to war was a by-product of the Reformation,yes. another sad and unfortunate event. But, to be clear it wasn't the indulgences and the reforms that Luther and others wanted that led to war persay so much as it was the overt political nature of the Papacy of the time and how it played a role in other kindgom's policies....there was a political advantage for those kingdoms to rebel against the Pope's political needs.

To be fair, some of it was justified and some of it was not...hence 30 years of atrocity.

Surely the German princes were not fighting to free the peasants from religious-politics!

 

[Targaryen]

Surely the German princes were not fighting to free the peasants from religious-politics!

No, but have more politcal and financial freedom aka more taxes for themselves, yes.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by Rick Otto

Protestants have a type of unity that conforms to freedom, not the "Dark Ages" kind concieved of by "the one true church".
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I'm not quite sure what you mean about unity conforming to freedom, Rick Otto. Can you explain? Forgive me if you've said it before, as I don't believe I've seen it.

I admit I tend to look at doctrinal unity, and no matter which side of the fence I was standing on, I had to admit that Protestants of every stripe and belief can be found.

Who'd a thunk it! on to the second thousand posts

And it is well on it's way to a 3rd thousand posts



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[MoreCoffee]

No, but have more politcal and financial freedom aka more taxes for themselves, yes.

Yes, well I think that the taxes that some wanted were not so much taxes as lands; that was Henry VIII's motive in the dissolution of the monasteries. One cannot really paint that as a noble religious motive. And still we have the legacy of those times in the form of some major Protestant churches that were state churches until very recently (Lutheran in the Scandinavian kingdoms, Anglican in England, Church of Scotland in Scotland etc). So some divisions within Protestantism were partly geographical and political and partly doctrinal and some divisions are doctrinal and personal and some divisions have causes that are difficult to pin down.

The Pentecostal and Charismatic groups are hard to properly characterise, their divisions can be related to visions and prophecies from within one or more of the groups - United Pentecostal style churches divided because of the "Jesus only" visions related to baptism ...

 

[sculleywr]

Doctrinal and liturgical conformity are one type of unity.

doctrinal being the most important of them

 

[Targaryen]

Yes, well I think that the taxes that some wanted were not so much taxes as lands; that was Henry VIII's motive in the dissolution of the monasteries. One cannot really paint that as a noble religious motive. And still we have the legacy of those times in the form of some major Protestant churches that were state churches until very recently (Lutheran in the Scandinavian kingdoms, Anglican in England, Church of Scotland in Scotland etc). So some divisions within Protestantism were partly geographical and political and partly doctrinal and some divisions are doctrinal and personal and some divisions have causes that are difficult to pin down.

No, you cannot paint political power in Protestant movements as a noble religious motive, I agree there entirely. Anglicanism as a tradition benefited sure, but as a spiritual tradition it benefited far more from the work of Cranmer and other English churchmen working within the CofE system then it ever did from the nobility.

The Pentecostal and Charismatic groups are hard to properly characterise, their divisions can be related to visions and prophecies from within one or more of the groups - United Pentecostal style churches divided because of the "Jesus only" visions related to baptism ...

The American impact on protestantism, in the Pentecostal/Charismatic portion is still relatively a new one in terms of Christianity. It could take some more time before we can know it's true historical impact, although IMO we are seeing it now in the polarization of the left/right perspective in politics and society in the US, particularity in the southern US.

 

[MoreCoffee]

No, you cannot paint political power in Protestant movements as a noble religious motive, I agree there entirely. Anglicanism as a tradition benefited sure, but as a spiritual tradition it benefited far more from the work of Cranmer and other English churchmen working within the CofE system then it ever did from the nobility.

The American impact on protestantism, in the Pentecostal/Charismatic portion is still relatively a new one in terms of Christianity. It could take some more time before we can know it's true historical impact, although IMO we are seeing it now in the polarization of the left/right perspective in politics and society in the US, particularity in the southern US.

There is a tragedy being played out on the African continent with the Charismatic/Pentecostal movement being wedded to native African animist religious thought and producing "Men of God" who marry multiple wives, have prayer nights with women with whom they have illicit sex in the name of God, and a host of spurious claims to healing powers. In some countries this has become so wide spread that the governments have published statistics to demonstrate that seeing a medical doctor has measurable benefits while seeing a "man of God" shows the same levels of pathology as seeing nobody at all. I heard two sermons from an African pastor (a Calvinist chap) from Zambia and his comments on these matters were very informative while at the same time rather distressing. I include links to the two sermons if you want to listen/watch them.

The African Import of Charismatic Chaos (Conrad Mbewe) Strange Fire Conference - YouTube

Are We Preachers or Witch Doctors? (Conrad Mbewe) Strange Fire Conference - YouTube

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Doctrinal and liturgical conformity are one type of unity.

doctrinal being the most important of them

How do we achieve doctrinal conformity?

Rom 12:2
And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind,
that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.

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[Radagast]

I heard two sermons from an African pastor (a Calvinist chap) from Zambia and his comments on these matters were very informative while at the same time rather distressing.

Good old Conrad Mbewe.

He blogs at www.conradmbewe.com, by the way.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Good old Conrad Mbewe.

He blogs at www.conradmbewe.com, by the way.

I thought you'd like his name. The second sermon is the one that deals directly with the "Man of God" theme. The first is, in my opinion, more interesting but less directly related to that theme.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by Rick Otto

There's only one Sheppard.
God is in you, brother... or you wouldn't care enough to be here about Him right now. Ask Him to show you Himself.
If you have to depend on a person or a place for this stuff...
Just go to Him.
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Originally Posted by catholichomeschooler

That doesn't answer the question.

Clearly, outside of the Catholic Church individuals reach radically different conclusions about the meaning of scripture.

Jesus gave us a Church so this wouldn't be a problem.

Which shepard do you follow and how do you know where he is going?
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Originally Posted by rick357

Paul prophesied that when he died ravenous wolves would come in and even of the churches own elders whom he was adressing would fall away and lead men away from faith...does not sound much like just trust the church...not to me
​

Acts 20 'i know that after my departure...that from among your own selves men will arise teaching strange doctrine...seeking to draw disciples after themselves"

in Christ,
Bob

What heresies?
Paul was concerned that the Jewish rulers would try to keep them from the grace that was in Jesus instead of the Mosaic law that was from Moses.

Read Acts 21.

Acts 21:21
and they are instructed concerning thee, that apostasy from Moses thou dost teach to all Jews among the nations, saying -- Not to circumcise the children, nor after the customs to walk;


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