Your problem with Islam.

[WoodrowX2]

Death penalty for apostates is supported by both shia and sunni groups.Islamic countries(Sunni and shia) have apostasy rules.

Apostasy in Islam - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Here is PEW survey 64 percent of Muslims in Egypt and Pakistan support the death penalty for leaving Islam

I have no problem with the result of the poll. However you may find that is probably the same percentage in Egypt and Pakistan that follow some form of wahabbi'ism.

The Sunni Hanafi Madhab of Sharia does not allow for an earthly punishment for Apostasy or Blasphemy.

Hanafi scholars refuse to control a human religious or spiritual destiny, and refuse to give that right to any human institution. Among the Hudud crimes, those crimes against God, blasphemy is not listed by the Hanafis. Hanafis concluded that blasphemy could not be punished by the state. The state should not be involved in deciding God-human relationships. Rather, the state should be concerned only with the violation of human rights within the jurisdiction of the human affairs and human relationships.

SOURCE

 

[WoodrowX2]

Saudi blogger faces death :

Saudi blogger may face death penalty for apostasy — RT News

While Saudi is Sunni, it does not follow the Hanafi Madhab of Sharia.

Currently world wide 21 Nations have the Death Penalty those being

1 China
2 Iran
3 Iraq
4 Saudi Arabia
5 United States
6 Yemen
7 Sudan
8 Afghanistan
9 The Gambia
10 Japan
11 North Korea
12 Somalia
13 Palestinian National Authority
14 Taiwan
15 South Sudan
16 Belarus
17 Botswana
18 Bangladesh
19 India
20 Pakistan
21 United Arab Emirates

SOURCE

Fifteen of those are Muslim Majority Nations. Eleven of those 15 seldom use the Death penalty except for very heineous crimes. Which means that of the 50 Muslim Majority Nations only 4 use the Death penalty routinly

 

[simplegifts]

While Saudi is Sunni, it does not follow the Hanafi Madhab of Sharia.

Currently world wide 21 Nations have the Death Penalty those being



SOURCE

Fifteen of those are Muslim Majority Nations. Eleven of those 15 seldom use the Death penalty except for very heineous crimes. Which means that of the 50 Muslim Majority Nations only 4 use the Death penalty routinly

Isn't the discussion about death penalty and apostates? Who has the death penalty for apostates in the USA?

Oh wait - Muslims, also known as honor killings.

 

[WoodrowX2]

Isn't the discussion about death penalty and apostates? Who has the death penalty for apostates in the USA?

Oh wait - Muslims, also known as honor killings.

Muslim "Honor Killings" seem to be pretty much limited to Muslims From SW Asia. Especially those of Pushtan or Punjabi origin. It is also common among Christians, Sikhs and Hindus from that region.

Honour Crimes

Posted on March 19, 2012 by Clive Field
Almost two-thirds (69%) of young British Asians aged 16-34 consider that families should live according to the concept of ‘honour’ or ‘izzat’. The proportion is lowest among Asian Christians (62%) and Hindus (64%) and greatest for Muslims (70%) and Sikhs (79%)
.
This is one of the findings of a ComRes poll undertaken on behalf of the BBC as background for a Panorama special on ‘Britain’s Crimes of Honour’, being broadcast tonight (BBC One, 8.30 pm). 500 young Asians living in Britain were interviewed by telephone between 23 and 27 February 2012. Data tables are available at:
http://www.comres.co.uk/polls/BBC_Blakeway_Honour_Crime_Feb12.pdf
A similar number of respondents (66%) argued that, while ‘izzat’ exists in some sections of society, its extent has been exaggerated by the media. This was particularly felt by young Asian Muslims (73%) and Sikhs (72%), less so by Christians (65%) or Hindus (53%).


Backing for the extremer manifestations of ‘izzat’ was small. Thus, only 6% of all young Asians believed that, in certain circumstances, it could be right to punish physically a female member of the family if she brought dishonour to it or the community. No Sikhs agreed with this, but 9% of Hindus, 8% of Christians, and 6% of Muslims did so.


Notwithstanding, three times this number (i.e. 18%) in the entire sample selected one or more of five ‘reasonable justifications’ for physical punishment of female members of the family. The figure was highest among Asian Christians (23%), followed by Muslims (20%), Sikhs (14%), and Hindus (13%).

SOURCE

 

[LoveBeingAMuslimah]

Na'am Ukhti,

SOURCE

barakAllaahu feek, 'Amo. It was an interesting read.


From what I have read about the Hanafi madhab, their opinion differs from the other madhahib only in terms of whether women can be executed for apostasy or not. And the Hanafi madhab might have more than one opinion on this itself, but I'm not too well-read up on this issue. Allaahu 'Alam.

 

[simplegifts]

Muslim "Honor Killings" seem to be pretty much limited to Muslims From SW Asia. Especially those of Pushtan or Punjabi origin. It is also common among Christians, Sikhs and Hindus from that region.



SOURCE

Read the Quran verses 18:65-81 gives this example for those Muslims who take the Quran literally:

018.074 Then they proceeded: until, when they met a young man, he slew him. Moses said: "Hast thou slain an innocent person who had slain none? Truly a foul (unheard of) thing hast thou done!"
....
018.080 "As for the youth, his parents were people of Faith, and we feared that he would grieve them by obstinate rebellion and ingratitude (to Allah and man).
018.081 "So we desired that their Lord would give them in exchange (a son) better in purity (of conduct) and closer in affection.

Then there are these verses:
033.060 Truly, if the Hypocrites, and those in whose hearts is a disease, and those who stir up sedition in the City, desist not, We shall certainly stir thee up against them: Then will they not be able to stay in it as thy neighbours for any length of time:
033.061 They shall have a curse on them: whenever they are found, they shall be seized and slain (without mercy).
033.062 (Such was) the practice (approved) of Allah among those who lived aforetime: No change wilt thou find in the practice (approved) of Allah.

Please point to the verses in the where Jesus taught Christians to perform honor killings.

We should never confuse what is taught in a religion and what people actually do.

Also STATS would carry more weight in the truth department then a POLL.

 

[smaneck]

Oh wait - Muslims, also known as honor killings.

There is nothing Islamic about honor killings. It is difficult to prosecute because murder of any type is considered a Qissas crime, one which the penalty may be mitigated if the family of the victim forgives the perpetrator. When the family of the perpetrator is the same as that of victim that creates problems. However, the Napoleonic Code also perpetuated leniency for honor killings by categorizing a husband killing a wife caught in adultery as a 'crime of passion' subject to a different penalty. A wife catching a husband in adultery, however, was not given the right to the same defense. Roman law likewise gave the Paterfamilias, male head of the household the right to execute any member of his household.

There have been clear cases of honor killings within the Christian community as well. The murder of Ronnie Paris, a little boy killed by his father who believed his son was gay is an example. Here is another example:
'Honour killings': murder by any other name | UK news | The Guardian

 

[smaneck]

Read the Quran verses 18:65-81 gives this example for those Muslims who take the Quran literally:

018.074 Then they proceeded: until, when they met a young man, he slew him. Moses said: "Hast thou slain an innocent person who had slain none? Truly a foul (unheard of) thing hast thou done!"

Show me a single Muslim who has ever used this parable of divine providence as an excuse for murder?

Then there are these verses:
033.060 Truly, if the Hypocrites, and those in whose hearts is a disease, and those who stir up sedition in the City, desist not, We shall certainly stir thee up against them: Then will they not be able to stay in it as thy neighbours for any length of time:
033.061 They shall have a curse on them: whenever they are found, they shall be seized and slain (without mercy).

You do realize that the people being referred to in this verse are those guilty of subversion and treason?

Please point to the verses in the where Jesus taught Christians to perform honor killings.

Please point to a verse in the Qur'an which teaches Muslims to perform honor killings? The verses you cite above have nothing to do with honor killing whatsoever.

We should never confuse what is taught in a religion and what people actually do.

Then you acknowledge that honor killing is not taught in Islam?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by elephunky

For those that have a problem with Islam and Muslims. Is it the first world, third world or entire scene of islam/muslims that you object to?
​

Good question.

a miracle-less, braindead religion.. poo poo, so to speak

Well that is one answer........


.

 

[BobRyan]

For those that have a problem with Islam and Muslims. Is it the first world, third world or entire scene of islam/muslims that you object to?

I wonder if Islam will survive ISIS?

Who would think of joining Islam while watching the almost dead silence in the Muslim world in response to ISIS?

Why are Christian countries having to once again - step in and put a stop to Islamic misdeeds?

Why don't Islamic states police their own mess??

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

A wife catching a husband in adultery, however, was not given the right to the same defense. Roman law likewise gave the Paterfamilias, male head of the household the right to execute any member of his household.

There have been clear cases of honor killings within the Christian community as well. The murder of Ronnie Paris, a little boy killed by his father who believed his son was gay is an example.

But no Christian group supports it - no mass movement to "go and do likewise".

When a Christian nation in Eastern Europe sought to wipe out a Muslim ethnic group - it was other Christian nations that stepped in to stop it.

The examples you give above - are great for the dark ages.

When does Islam come out of the dark ages?

I have argued that as Catholics came out of the dark ages and many are trying to leave that behind them - so also should Islam.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[gord44]

I wonder if Islam will survive ISIS?

Of course it will. It has over a billion adherents.

Who would think of joining Islam while watching the almost dead silence in the Muslim world in response to ISIS?

I did. In wanting to learn more about Islam in the wake of the nasty ISIS stuff, I decided to read my Quran again. The book is truly from God. My heart was opened up as I discovered the truth. And there are plenty of Muslims speaking out if you take a look.

Why are Christian countries having to once again - step in and put a stop to Islamic misdeeds?

'Christian' countries made the mess in the Middle East that gave rise to the type of extremism we see in ISIS. They are there to clean up 'their' mess.

 

[BobRyan]

Of course it will. It has over a billion adherents.



I did. In wanting to learn more about Islam in the wake of the nasty ISIS stuff, I decided to read my Quran again. The book is truly from God. My heart was opened up as I discovered the truth. And there are plenty of Muslims speaking out if you take a look.



'Christian' countries made the mess in the Middle East that gave rise to the type of extremism we see in ISIS. They are there to clean up 'their' mess.

Blaming others for what Muslims do is pretty common these days - but less than convincing to the objective mind.

When Sadam was butchering his own people - no Muslims put a stop to it - America had to do it for them.

While America had troops in Iraq - no ISIS - but when America left - well there comes the Islamic mess for someone to clean up.

Why do not the Islamic states see how this reflects on them and start a movement to clean up their own messes?

There are no voices crying out against ISIS among the islamic general public. No demonstrations, no news conferences, no world forums meeting to condemn ISIS.

But we do here stuff as in your post where "blame non-Muslims for whatever the muslims do if it disgraces the religion of islam".

What kind of logic is that?

Even your own post appealed to "fathers killing family members" as a practice from the dark ages -- as IF dark ages ethics will be seen as a shining standard for objective, free, intelligent minds today. Surely you knew this was not going to present Islam in a favorable light.

What if Christians did that??

They would never get away with it.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

There is the "notion" of a "Moderat muslim" and ISIS is challenging that "notion". They are arguing that the moderates are only moderate to the degree that they do NOT follow the Quran.

And to the degree that ISIS gains even the smallest "impression" of success - Muslims are signing up from civilized countries all over the world.

One begins to think that maybe the claims ISIS makes about Islam are the right ones and those calling themselves 'moderate' are in fact not following the Quran as closely as ISIS.

And because of that - I think Islam is going to lose more converts than it makes -- the wackos joining ISIS and the more well-reasoned Muslims bailing.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[gord44]

Blaming others for what Muslims do is pretty common these days - but less than convincing to the objective mind.

More like to the closed mind.

When Sadam was butchering his own people - no Muslims put a stop to it - America had to do it for them.

You should examine why a guy like Saddam was even in power.

While America had troops in Iraq - no ISIS - but when America left - well there comes the Islamic mess for someone to clean up.

Right. The US left Iraq in pristine condition. It was an Arab utopia. No violence. The reports of 500,000 civilian deaths since the invasion happened was simply false info. And the Iraqi government left in charge was a model of character and morals. It was incorruptible. ISIS started when the lines at the Baghdad Disneyland got too long and they got bored.

Why do not the Islamic states see how this reflects on them and start a movement to clean up their own messes?

You may not like that answer.

There are no voices crying out against ISIS among the islamic general public. No demonstrations, no news conferences, no world forums meeting to condemn ISIS.

There is. Take a look Bob. You may have to turn off Fox News to find it though.

 

[GrowingSmaller]

Well to some degree its a divided religion, but in Christianity, protestantism at least, there seems to be some form of humility and respect dfor other "sects" or versions of the faith. Its more ecumenical. Whereas with Islam it seems like everybody has the right version, and seems to know it too.

 

[GrowingSmaller]

Well to some degree its a divided religion, but in Christianity, protestantism at least, there seems to be some form of humility and respect for other "sects" or versions of the faith. Its more ecumenical. Whereas with Islam it seems like almost everybody has the right version, and seems to know it too.

 

[Profane]

When Sadam was butchering his own people - no Muslims put a stop to it - America had to do it for them.

Right, because that worked out so well.

 

[simplegifts]

Show me a single Muslim who has ever used this parable of divine providence as an excuse for murder?



You do realize that the people being referred to in this verse are those guilty of subversion and treason?



Please point to a verse in the Qur'an which teaches Muslims to perform honor killings? The verses you cite above have nothing to do with honor killing whatsoever.



Then you acknowledge that honor killing is not taught in Islam?

It is not me saying so but those are the verses Islamists use.

No that last comment - show me where Jesus taught honor killing.

 

[WoodrowX2]

It is not me saying so but those are the verses Islamists use.

No that last comment - show me where Jesus taught honor killing.

Just addressing Honor killings. The coutry that has the most is Pakistan and nearly all are in the Punjab Provence. It occurs among Punjabi to about equal levels among Christian, Sikh and Muslim Punjabi and seems to an issue of Asian Culture not religion.

What is interesting is the findings among Asians living in the UK

A similar number of respondents (66%) argued that, while ‘izzat’ exists in some sections of society, its extent has been exaggerated by the media. This was particularly felt by young Asian Muslims (73%) and Sikhs (72%), less so by Christians (65%) or Hindus (53%).


Backing for the extremer manifestations of ‘izzat’ was small. Thus, only 6% of all young Asians believed that, in certain circumstances, it could be right to punish physically a female member of the family if she brought dishonour to it or the community. No Sikhs agreed with this, but 9% of Hindus, 8% of Christians, and 6% of Muslims did so.


Notwithstanding, three times this number (i.e. 18%) in the entire sample selected one or more of five ‘reasonable justifications’ for physical punishment of female members of the family. The figure was highest among Asian Christians (23%), followed by Muslims (20%), Sikhs (14%), and Hindus (13%).

SOURCE

The issue seems to be the result of National culture. Not because of religion.