Ezekiel 39.

[Interplanner]

Sorry its a bit incomplete. There is a rebellion mentioned in 8:13. A rebellion has a leader. The leader is described later in 8, and there are lines from Josephus that were from ch 8 to describe him.

 

[Douggg]

Sorry its a bit incomplete. There is a rebellion mentioned in 8:13. A rebellion has a leader. The leader is described later in 8, and there are lines from Josephus that were from ch 8 to describe him.

So, according to Josephus, the little horn cannot be Antiochus, right?

 

[Rev20]

Although I don't agree that the abomination of desolation Jesus was speaking of, had anything to do with Titus - if you are saying Titus did the abomination of desolation, then Antiochus was not the "last" abomination of desolation, by your statement. Which Antiochus would not be the little horn of Daniel 8.

There were two abomination of desolations in Daniel: one that occurred about 175BC under Antiochus IV, and another in the 1st century under the Romans. Antiochus IV was the little horn in Daniel 8, by virtually all historical accounts.
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There is no argument about the Medes and Persians. So you are wasting our time over something that is not disputed.

No-one is arguing that the King of Greece is in the text of Daniel 8, as being a king.
No, no-one is arguing about those points.

The point is that in Daniel 8:8, it is the four direction of the four kingdoms that is in focus. And that in Daniel 8:22, it is only Alexander the king referenced, but not the follow up kings. It is their kingdoms, not the kings themselves.

22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.

The kings were friends of Alexander to whom he bequeathed his kingdom. There were five initially, but one had his portion wrested away after "continual wars", according to Josephus. Josephus' Complete Works has a good narrative on all of this. Search for Alexander, then Antiochus.

Josephus: The Complete Works - Christian Classics Ethereal Library
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The little horn waxes strong from one of the geographic regions that was once one of the four kingdoms, at the time of the end.

The time of the end of what? The scripture, apocrypha and historical records, combined, provide plenty of information on the little horn, Antiochus IV, who was a descendant of Seleucus, one of the four kings that received their kingdoms from Alexander.
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If that were the case, then the messiah would be cut off at a 1/2 week interval. But the text indicates after 69 weeks (62+7), not after 69 and 1/2 weeks.

How long after 69 weeks--after his arrival, baptism, and anointing--was Christ murdered, Doug? The text does not say he was murdered at the end of 69 weeks, but that he arrived at the end of 69 weeks. Therefore, his anointing occurred at the beginning of the 70th week, and he was murdered about 3.5 years later, which was the midst of the week, as explained in vs.27.
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Those text don't quantify Jesus doing something according to 3 1/2 years. It is just not there. They are not making a Daniel 9, confirmation of the covenant for 7 years argument. Those are third tier sources you are providing. I go by the original source, the bible.

I would not consider Eusebius and Augustine as third-tier sources. But that is neither here nor there. What amazes me is how you claim the Bible is your original source, but your doctrine did not exist (in Protestant circles) until the 19th century. Are you claiming you were not influenced by Scofield's or other dispensational or futurist agenda?

Frankly, Doug, I don't believe we will agree on anything.


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[Rev20]

Sorry its a bit incomplete. There is a rebellion mentioned in 8:13. A rebellion has a leader. The leader is described later in 8, and there are lines from Josephus that were from ch 8 to describe him.

The word "rebellion", as found in a few translations (ex., HCSB, NIV), is translated more frequently as "transgression"; also as "sin" (ex., DRA, LXX, NAB), and even as "disobedience" (ex., WEB).

The Maccabees has this about "transgressions" in the days of Antiochus:

"And there came out of them a wicked root Antiochus surnamed Epiphanes, son of Antiochus the king, who had been an hostage at Rome, and he reigned in the hundred and thirty and seventh year of the kingdom of the Greeks. In those days went there out of Israel wicked men, who persuaded many, saying, Let us go and make a covenant with the heathen that are round about us: for since we departed from them we have had much sorrow. So this device pleased them well. Then certain of the people were so forward herein, that they went to the king, who gave them licence to do after the ordinances of the heathen: Whereupon they built a place of exercise at Jerusalem according to the customs of the heathen: And made themselves uncircumcised, and forsook the holy covenant, and joined themselves to the heathen, and were sold to do mischief." -- 1Mac 1:11-15 LXX​

I guess you could call that a rebellion.

Help me out, IP. Where can I find the reference to ch 8 in Josephus?

Thx.


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[Interplanner]

lol, you had several just recently. It's the descriptions of how horrible the rebels were.

book 5, ch 10,
4, 7

 

[Interplanner]

[entering posts on this site is clogging up in mere minutes. It doesn't happen anywhere else. Is anyone else having trouble?]

 

[Rev20]

lol, you had several just recently. It's the descriptions of how horrible the rebels were.

book 5, ch 10,
4, 7

They certainly were a terrible bunch; and I believe the Revelation refers to them when it states:

"And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath." -- Rev 16:19​

4. And now there were three treacherous factions in the city, the one parted from the other. Eleazar and his party, that kept the sacred first-fruits, came against John in their cups. Those that were with John plundered the populace, and went out with zeal against Simon. This Simon had his supply of provisions from the city, in opposition to the seditious . . . Accordingly, it so came to pass, that all the places that were about the temple were burnt down, and were become an intermediate desert space, ready for fighting on both sides of it; and that almost all that corn was burnt, which would have been sufficient for a siege of many years. So they were taken by the means of the famine, which it was impossible they should have been, unless they had thus prepared the way for it by this procedure.​

But I cannot fit any of them into Daniel 8.


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[Interplanner]

It is about a rebellion that desolates the city. How many of such rebellions have their been down through Israel's history?

 

[Douggg]

There were two abomination of desolations in Daniel: one that occurred about 175BC under Antiochus IV, and another in the 1st century under the Romans. Antiochus IV was the little horn in Daniel 8, by virtually all historical accounts.

How can Anitochus be the little horn, if the little horn commits the last transgression of desolation, and you yourself say that Titus committed an abomination of desolation 300 years later?.

The time of the end of what? The scripture, apocrypha and historical records, combined, provide plenty of information on the little horn, Antiochus IV, who was a descendant of Seleucus, one of the four kings that received their kingdoms from Alexander.

No-one is arguing who Antiochus was historically.

The issue is who is the little horn who commits the last transgression of desolation at the time of the end. It is the time of the end of the kingdoms of this world having dominion over the earth.

How long after 69 weeks--after his arrival, baptism, and anointing--was Christ murdered, Doug? The text does not say he was murdered at the end of 69 weeks, but that he arrived at the end of 69 weeks.

Jesus arrived in Jerusalem, hailed as the messiah, riding the donkey, the beginning of that last passover week. 4 days later he was crucified at the end of 69 weeks.

Therefore, his anointing occurred at the beginning of the 70th week, and he was murdered about 3.5 years later, which was the midst of the week, as explained in vs.27.

Jesus was not in Jerusalem, at the time he was baptized by John the Baptist, which was in the Jordan river . The 62 weeks (plus the 7 weeks) is when the messiah arrives in Jerusalem.

25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

I would not consider Eusebius and Augustine as third-tier sources.
But that is neither here nor there.

But you quoted some commentator, who referred to them

What amazes me is how you claim the Bible is your original source, but your doctrine did not exist (in Protestant circles) until the 19th century. Are you claiming you were not influenced by Scofield's or other dispensational or futurist agenda?

The input to a person's eschatology is not attributable to one or two individuals in my case; it's hyper complex. God has made me an expert on the end times and the Antichrist in particular.

I will say that I am not a dispensationalist, but a futurist, and have never read Scofield. You have not seen me quote any commentator, except that long after I formulated my futurist view, 30 years or so, I discovered that Arthur Pink had some common thoughts on the subject - even back in 1923, so I sometimes point that out. His work is available on line - "The Antichrist by Arthur Pink". Pink himself may have been a dispensationalist, I don't know. But I am not.

Frankly, Doug, I don't believe we will agree on anything.


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probably not. I am hopeful that the great falling away from preterism, of them at this site at least, takes place when the EU forms that ten leader government over there.

 

[Rev20]

It is about a rebellion that desolates the city. How many of such rebellions have their been down through Israel's history?

I believe you are misreading Daniel 8:13, if you are still referring to it. If not, why are you asking that question?

The Roman army desolated the temple and city in the 1st century, and slaughtered many of the people remaining. Antiochus IV desolated the temple in the 2nd century BC, and massacred a large part of the population. Later, Antiochus sent his army, and they killed even more. They also burnt and destroyed the city, and took women and children captive.

Both were horrific events in the history of Israel. I really don't know what your point is.


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[Rev20]

How can Anitochus be the little horn, if the little horn commits the last transgression of desolation, and you yourself say that Titus committed an abomination of desolation 300 years later?.

No-one is arguing who Antiochus was historically.
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The issue is who is the little horn who commits the last transgression of desolation at the time of the end. It is the time of the end of the kingdoms of this world having dominion over the earth.

It doesn't say that. Show us that in the scripture, in context, if you believe what you say.
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Jesus arrived in Jerusalem, hailed as the messiah, riding the donkey, the beginning of that last passover week. 4 days later he was crucified at the end of 69 weeks.

It doesn't say that. Show us that in the scripture, in context, if you believe what you say.
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Jesus was not in Jerusalem, at the time he was baptized by John the Baptist, which was in the Jordan river . The 62 weeks (plus the 7 weeks) is when the messiah arrives in Jerusalem.

It doesn't say that. Show us that in the scripture, in context, if you believe what you say.
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25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

But you quoted some commentator, who referred to them

I also quoted the scripture, Doug, in detail. I guess you were not paying attention.
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The input to a person's eschatology is not attributable to one or two individuals in my case; it's hyper complex. God has made me an expert on the end times and the Antichrist in particular.

You are the expert? You really fooled me, Doug. I would not, in a million years, have thought you to be an expert on any of this.

I have heard all this before, Doug. It sounded as contrived then, as it does now.
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I will say that I am not a dispensationalist, but a futurist, and have never read Scofield. You have not seen me quote any commentator, except that long after I formulated my futurist view, 30 years or so, I discovered that Arthur Pink had some common thoughts on the subject - even back in 1923, so I sometimes point that out. His work is available on line - "The Antichrist by Arthur Pink". Pink himself may have been a dispensationalist, I don't know. But I am not.

Yet, you seem to believe in the dispensational gap theory, and you push the same, strange, dispensational talking points on the 69th week. That is a remarkable coincidence.
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I am hopeful that the great falling away from preterism, of them at this site at least, takes place when the EU forms that ten leader government over there.

Well, I guess that lets the Catholic Church off the hook. Who do you think the antichrist will be next week, Doug?


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[Rev20]

I will say that I am not a dispensationalist, but a futurist, and have never read Scofield. You have not seen me quote any commentator, except that long after I formulated my futurist view, 30 years or so, I discovered that Arthur Pink had some common thoughts on the subject - even back in 1923, so I sometimes point that out. His work is available on line - "The Antichrist by Arthur Pink". Pink himself may have been a dispensationalist, I don't know. But I am not.

I must admit I have never heard you quote any commentator. Are you familiar with this work by Arthur Pink?

"The Application of the Scriptures: A Biblical Refutation of Dispensationalism", by Arthur W. Pink



.

 

[Douggg]

I must admit I have never heard you quote any commentator. Are you familiar with this work by Arthur Pink?

"The Application of the Scriptures: A Biblical Refutation of Dispensationalism", by Arthur W. Pink



.

No, I am not. But if you read the free online work by Pink on the Antichrist, http://www.biblebelievers.com/Pink/antichrist01.htm you will find that his views are futurist, and not historist (a separate issue from dispensationalism) which holds that the papacy is the Antichrist. Pink counters that notion.

I will go take a look at the link. So, it appears Pink, like me, is a futurist, but not a dispensationalist. Thanks.

 

[Rev20]

No, I am not. But if you read the free online work by Pink on the Antichrist, The Antichrist - By A.W. Pink you will find that his views are futurist, and not historist (a separate issue from dispensationalism) which holds that the papacy is the Antichrist. Pink counters that notion.

I will go take a look at the link. So, it appears Pink, like me, is a futurist, but not a dispensationalist. Thanks.

I am familiar with his works.


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[tranquil]

When do you understand the following verses are to be fulfilled?

1. Before the Tribulation begins;

2. 3 1/2 years before the Tribulation begins and into the first half 3 1/2 of the Tribulation (7 years):

3. During the Tribulation;

4. After the Tribulation;

5. Other.


Give any verses that come to mind, or tell us if your comments are personal opinions.

Ez.39:9 "And they that dwell in the cities of Israel shall go forth, and shall set on fire (paraphrased) "all the weapons of war" and they shall burn them with fire seven years."

Ez.39:12, And seven months shall the house of Israel be burying them (their enemies in the last days) that they may cleanse the land."

Keep in mind ver.9 speaks of 7 years.

Phil LaSpino

The 7 years refers to

Leviticus 26

21“Then if you walk contrary to me and will not listen to me, I will continue striking you, sevenfold for your sins. 22And I will let loose the wild beasts against you, which shall bereave you of your children and destroy your livestock and make you few in number, so that your roads shall be deserted.
23“And if by this discipline you are not turned to me but walk contrary to me, 24then I also will walk contrary to you, and I myself will strike you sevenfold for your sins. 25And I will bring a sword upon you, that shall execute vengeance for the covenant. And if you gather within your cities, I will send pestilence among you, and you shall be delivered into the hand of the enemy. 26When I break your supplyb of bread, ten women shall bake your bread in a single oven and shall dole out your bread again by weight, and you shall eat and not be satisfied.
27“But if in spite of this you will not listen to me, but walk contrary to me, 28then I will walk contrary to you in fury, and I myself will discipline you sevenfold for your sins. 29You shall eat the flesh of your sons, and you shall eat the flesh of your daughters. 30And I will destroy your high places and cut down your incense altars and cast your dead bodies upon the dead bodies of your idols, and my soul will abhor you. 31And I will lay your cities waste and will make your sanctuaries desolate, and I will not smell your pleasing aromas. 32And I myself will devastate the land, so that your enemies who settle in it shall be appalled at it. 33And I will scatter you among the nations, and I will unsheathe the sword after you, and your land shall be a desolation, and your cities shall be a waste.
34“Then the land shall enjoyc its Sabbaths as long as it lies desolate, while you are in your enemies’ land; then the land shall rest, and enjoy its Sabbaths. 35As long as it lies desolate it shall have rest, the rest that it did not have on your Sabbaths when you were dwelling in it. 36And as for those of you who are left, I will send faintness into their hearts in the lands of their enemies. The sound of a driven leaf shall put them to flight, and they shall flee as one flees from the sword, and they shall fall when none pursues. 37They shall stumble over one another, as if to escape a sword, though none pursues. And you shall have no power to stand before your enemies. 38And you shall perish among the nations, and the land of your enemies shall eat you up. 39And those of you who are left shall rot away in your enemies’ lands because of their iniquity, and also because of the iniquities of their fathers they shall rot away like them.
40“But if they confess their iniquity and the iniquity of their fathers in their treachery that they committed against me, and also in walking contrary to me, 41so that I walked contrary to them and brought them into the land of their enemies—if then their uncircumcised heart is humbled and they make amends for their iniquity, 42then I will remember my covenant with Jacob, and I will remember my covenant with Isaac and my covenant with Abraham, and I will remember the land. 43But the land shall be abandoned by them and enjoy its Sabbaths while it lies desolate without them, and they shall make amends for their iniquity, because they spurned my rules and their soul abhorred my statutes.
​

The "Day of the Lord" (when the Gog war will occur) is most likely to occur at the end of the 49th year from the taking of Jerusalem (start of a Jubilee when the land has accrued "7 years off", 1 year for every 7 years that weren't given a day off) and is simultaneously the 69th Shavuot after the creation of Israel/ 69th "shubua"/ translated "week" in Dan 9 which is June 11, 2016.

 

[Daniel1136]

Ezekiel's vision has two parts

The invasion of Israel by Satan's little horn at the Middle of the 70th week

.... and then will come the battle of Armageddon 1260 days later

Ezekiel's vision does not include any other details and one must search other prophets for events of the first 1260 days and those leading up to the battle of Armageddon like Isaiah, Jeremiah, Daniel, Joel, Micah, and Zechariah

Armageddon will last for 30 days and then Israel will be commissioned to clean up the land for use during the Lord's millennial kingdom upon the earth just after

 

[Douggg]

Ezekiel's vision has two parts

The invasion of Israel by Satan's little horn at the Middle of the 70th week

.... and then will come the battle of Armageddon 1260 days later

Ezekiel's vision does not include any other details and one must search other prophets for events of the first 1260 days and those leading up to the battle of Armageddon like Isaiah, Jeremiah, Daniel, Joel, Micah, and Zechariah

Armageddon will last for 30 days and then Israel will be commissioned to clean up the land for use during the Lord's millennial kingdom upon the earth just after

Where is the little horn identified in Ezekiel 38/39?

 

[Danoh]

I must admit I have never heard you quote any commentator. Are you familiar with this work by Arthur Pink?

"The Application of the Scriptures: A Biblical Refutation of Dispensationalism", by Arthur W. Pink



.

Am presently re-reading that writing by Pink, after all these years. It remains as full of holes as it did when I first read it years ago.

Also, its entire spirit is that of the typical tradutionalist - be they.for or against Dispensationalism - they right from that same spirit of mind that Christ had been so at odds with as to "the scribes" of his day - as though both, in love with hearing themselves, as well as if compelled to use words in a manner that might show their audience just how great they are with words.

Their kind is never open but to their own "piping."

You shouldn't allow yourself to be taken in by their actual agenda. Its own that is plied through what makes only due to what's left out of their repeated conclusions of those who came before them.

If you do, then, after a while, their "science falsely so called" not only becomes your own, but so does its intolerance for constant humility of being willing to start over each time you delve into Scripture, demands.

I realize you may perhaps come back with some snide comment. But that just makes its basis suspect.

Respectfully,

 

[Daniel1136]

"Where is the little horn identified in Ezekiel 38/39?"


The Lord is addressing Satan [Gog] [Ezekiel 38:17]

Satan Is the one behind the human little horn and king of the north

Satan is the "god" of this present world who operates through human kings [Ezekiel 28:1-28]

The human little horn is the first beast of Revelation who is empowered by Satan [Revelation 13:1-4]

There is also an infusion of Abaddon-Apollyon as part of Satan's design for his anti-messiah .... this is revealed here [Revelation 9:11; 11:2; 13:1-4; 17:8-18]

This angelic prince serves Satan ruling over the 7 human kingdoms and king positions [heads] of the Middle East [beginning just after the flood] .... 5 fallen [the "land" of Magog, the Assyrian, the neo-Babylonian, the Medo/Persian [and greater Persian], Seleucid Syria] .... and 2 more coming when he is released from the abyss

Number 6 will be the smaller kingdom of the little horn located in the north western region of Mesopotamia, Iraq and the Levant, the same core region of the ancient Assyrian Empire [Nineveh province/Mosul Iraq] .... this is why the little horn is called the "Assyrian" in Micah 5:5-6

Abaddon [the beast in the little horn] will then quickly expand his 6th kingdom into the 7th which will incorporate the entire Middle East [Daniel 7:7-25; 8:9-12; 8:23-25; 11:36-45; 12:7]

He will invade and occupy Israel, Jerusalem, and the temple mount and sit in the temple of his "god" who is Satan [2 Thessalonians 2:8-12]

Then the Lord will come, rescue a believing remnant of Israel, and destroy Satan's mimic and his human followers at Armageddon [Jeremiah 30; Ezekiel 39; Daniel 11:45; Joel 2:20; 3; Micah 5; Zechariah 12; 13; 14; Matthew 24:15-16; Revelation 12:6; 12:14; 14:14-20; 16;1-16; 19:11-21]

 

[Douggg]

"Where is the little horn identified in Ezekiel 38/39?"


The Lord is addressing Satan [Gog] [Ezekiel 38:17]

Satan Is the one behind the human little horn and king of the north

Satan is the "god" of this present world who operates through human kings [Ezekiel 28:1-28]

The human little horn is the first beast of Revelation who is empowered by Satan [Revelation 13:1-4]

The first beast in Revelation claims to be God and is worshiped. Revelation 13:4. So he would not have a muslim army following him because Muslims will not worship a man claiming to be God. So who is the mighty army of the little horn if he comes from the north and covers the land as a cloud?

Also, Persia, (modern day Iran), Eithopia, and Libya are mentioned by name. Ezekiel 38:5. They are all muslim. Why would they, as muslims, follow the beast, a man claiming to be God ? And worshiping the image of the beast.

Which would be equivalent to Christians worshiping and following some man other than Jesus claiming to be God.

Your timing is off, your identity of Gog is off, and your identity of the little horn is off, your identity of the beast is off.