Beheading of children in Iraq?

[Nithavela]

And there he goes again.

 

[Armoured]

And there he goes again.

Armageddon started on 9/11 in 3...2...

 

[Oafman]

Oafman, am I understanding you correctly that you only champion the claims that children are being beaded? Or are you championing the claims of other ISIS atrocities.

To me, it doesn't really make much of a difference, to be straight and honest. I find that after seeing what other crimes and atrocities this group has committed in the name of Islam, I find it very credible that they are capable of killing children aswell.

I'm not championing anything, beyond a burden of proof. And I'm certainly not trying to cast any doubt on the extent of IS' brutality. We know about their mass executions of non-Sunnis; they seem to delight in posting them on social media. But I do think that it would raise this to another level if it can be shown that they are executing children.

I'm just conscious that we are relying on second hand sources for some of these claims. A guy in San Diego, a vague line from a priest. And it is in desperate peoples' interest to horrify the west, in an attempt to get our support.

For example, this week we had reports from Yazhidi spokesmen that there were "700,000 dying on Mt Sinjar; a few have made their way down but most are still up there". But by the time US SF get dropped in to assess, there were just a few thousand, and there was an "excess of aid" on the mountain. It's great news that the humanitarian catastrophe we feared did not materialise there, but it's an example of how things can be exaggerated.

Any way you put it, the Islamic State is an insidious disease, a cancer on our world and should be a lesson to all those who play down immigration problems and Islamic extremism in Europe and elsewhere in the world.

Woah, hang on. I was right with you up until the immigration part. What does the immigration discussion in the west have to do with IS?

 

[Senator Cheese]

I'm not championing anything, beyond a burden of proof. And I'm certainly not trying to cast any doubt on the extent of IS' brutality. We know about their mass executions of non-Sunnis; they seem to delight in posting them on social media. But I do think that it would raise this to another level if it can be shown that they are executing children.

There are videos of mass executions of teenagers by gunshot, available on the internet. I have decided not to share them here because they are very disturbing, but you know portals like LiveLeak/Google and how to use them.

I'm just conscious that we are relying on second hand sources for some of these claims. A guy in San Diego, a vague line from a priest. And it is in desperate peoples' interest to horrify the west, in an attempt to get our support.

Without doubt, you are correct in demanding proof for individual claims - especially when it comes to statements that demand political (and military action). Nonethless, given the spirit of ISIS and the crimes they already commit, I wouldn't shed too much doubt on the claims of these priests. And again - while I personally consider decapitation a much more brutal form of execution than shooting, it doesn't matter: the fact stands alone that the Islamic State is an organization that is committing atrocities beyond even the sickets, most perverted imagination.

For example, this week we had reports from Yazhidi spokesmen that there were "700,000 dying on Mt Sinjar; a few have made their way down but most are still up there". But by the time US SF get dropped in to assess, there were just a few thousand, and there was an "excess of aid" on the mountain. It's great news that the humanitarian catastrophe we feared did not materialise there, but it's an example of how things can be exaggerated.

I watched an interview last night from a Ukraine reporter, who said that the problem in war reporting is that everyone demands a comprehensive, concise and certain informative report - while it's really hard to keep on top of things when you're not really in the area. This was about the apparent destruction of a Russian military convoy, over which there continue to be conflicting reports.

Either way, he went on to say that the same goes for the Islamic State - virtually all of the information we can rely on are the eyewitness reports and the own publications of the organization.
The goal of these publications are - for one - recruitment of further young Muslim fighters to aid their goals (400 from Germany, for example). And another fact is that their relentless brutality instills fear on their enemies (which is part of their successful military campaign).
There have been multiple reports on mass rapes, sexual exploitation and sexual slavery - of which ISIS has posted no videos whatsoever. I don't think that's because those independent eye witnesses are all delusional or manipulative, but simply because such propaganda would not serve the ISIS message of erecting a "pure Muslim caliphate".

Woah, hang on. I was right with you up until the immigration part. What does the immigration discussion in the west have to do with IS?

I knew we'd get to a point where we disagree.
I believe that the current administrations in Germany have underestimated the radicalization of young Muslim immigrants. Newest sociological studies have shown that no factor correlates stronger with juvenile delinquency among German teens than adherence to the Islamic faith - it supercedes poverty and lack of education and is higher among Muslim youth than among youth of any other faith.
Coupled with the fact that we are experiencing the highest degrees of antisemitism coming from the Muslim minority (I posted the videos of "anti-Zionist" videos in which the crowd was calling for the killing of all jews a while ago), and polls/surveys conducted among Muslims by the Pew Research center, this is cause for alarm.
In Heerfordt (Germany), Yezidhis demonstrated against ISIS and were brutally beat up by Salafists in response. When a Yezidhi shop owner filed charges, he was again "visited" by two IS-supporters and threatened - luckily, the perpetrators were caught.
While the events in Israel prompted huge riots in several European cities (many of which were organized by local mosques), the onslaught of ISIS has gone without much recognition.

Don't get me wrong - I am not saying that I expect every Muslim to demonstrate against the Islamic State.. I am, however, growing tired of the fact that many Muslim communities portray themselves to be victim of an "oppressive, islam hating" government because our educational system (coed sports, coed swimming lessons) clash with their fundamental beliefs.
The fact that more than half of all Germans are growing more anxious in regards to Islam and terrorism should be a signal that the Muslim community - if they oppose terror as a political means and oppose religious extremism - is not doing enough to clearly distance themselves from these atrocities.

Of course, one must be very careful not to generalize, but I also believe it is the duty and responsibility of a supposed "silent majority" to distance themselves from radical, violence-advocating alleged minorities.

And, again, I don't consider the "Religion of Peace" Site to be a credible source in any respect - but their aggregated list of surveys and polls does seem to paint the picture that one shouldn't underestimate the violent potential of our Islamic communities.

The question - obviously - is in what way we can provide policies that counteract these tendencies. While social policies aiming at better integration by providing free education, welfare and security are nice and all, I think the fact that the political ideology that is deeply rooted in Islam is not criticised vehemently is part of current failures.
Integration programs to help topple right-wing and left-wing extremism have been very successful, for the most part, because they combine reeducation and social welfare. For toppling Islamic extremism, the aspect of reeducation (coupled with open criticism of the religion's antidemocratic and racist political dimension) needs to be brought into focus.

 

[mindlight]

I'm not championing anything, beyond a burden of proof. And I'm certainly not trying to cast any doubt on the extent of IS' brutality. We know about their mass executions of non-Sunnis; they seem to delight in posting them on social media. But I do think that it would raise this to another level if it can be shown that they are executing children.

I'm just conscious that we are relying on second hand sources for some of these claims. A guy in San Diego, a vague line from a priest. And it is in desperate peoples' interest to horrify the west, in an attempt to get our support.

For example, this week we had reports from Yazhidi spokesmen that there were "700,000 dying on Mt Sinjar; a few have made their way down but most are still up there". But by the time US SF get dropped in to assess, there were just a few thousand, and there was an "excess of aid" on the mountain. It's great news that the humanitarian catastrophe we feared did not materialise there, but it's an example of how things can be exaggerated.


Woah, hang on. I was right with you up until the immigration part. What does the immigration discussion in the west have to do with IS?

Questions about the validity of individual stories is honest and valid. I had thought you were questioning the broad narrative of IS brutality and was on reflection quite emotional in my response because some of the stories are from people I have met and trust and the suffering of the Iraqi church is quite considerable right now. Also I had you mingled in my head with Obama whose slow reaction to what has been going on first in Syria and now in Iraq and apparent indifference to Christians as opposed to Yazidis and Kurds has got me completely mad. This has been building over a period of years and I will be truly glad when that man leaves the Whitehouse. So I apologise if my reaction was a little over the top towards you personally for your posts. Honest questioning is not something any Christian should be worried about and it is important to keep things in perspective. That said I still believe that Mark Arabos claims about the beheading of children are probably true although I personally doubt this is a "systematic" strategy. It seems to me that they are killing people in a whole variety of ways and there is no one way that characterises this mass murder.

 

[mindlight]

Either way, he went on to say that the same goes for the Islamic State - virtually all of the information we can rely on are the eyewitness reports and the own publications of the organization.
The goal of these publications are - for one - recruitment of further young Muslim fighters to aid their goals (400 from Germany, for example). And another fact is that their relentless brutality instills fear on their enemies (which is part of their successful military campaign).
There have been multiple reports on mass rapes, sexual exploitation and sexual slavery - of which ISIS has posted no videos whatsoever. I don't think that's because those independent eye witnesses are all delusional or manipulative, but simply because such propaganda would not serve the ISIS message of erecting a "pure Muslim caliphate".

They are also relatively disciplined as an outfit and can respond to media reactions. As you say the news output is controlled to maximise fear in their opponents and to project an Islamic picture of themselves that will win recruits to their cause. But I wonder if unfavourable reports would even make the news channels these Western recruits watch. I buy my kebabs regularly from a Doner place for instance and they always have these Sunni news channels on. The standard media are distrusted and ignored if they say anything negative about Islam. Also there is a measure of intimidation of journalists and news networks going on as was evident in Gaza for instance.

Hamas manipulated and intimidated the media in Gaza. Why was that kept from us? – Telegraph Blogs

I knew we'd get to a point where we disagree.
I believe that the current administrations in Germany have underestimated the radicalization of young Muslim immigrants. Newest sociological studies have shown that no factor correlates stronger with juvenile delinquency among German teens than adherence to the Islamic faith - it supercedes poverty and lack of education and is higher among Muslim youth than among youth of any other faith.
Coupled with the fact that we are experiencing the highest degrees of antisemitism coming from the Muslim minority (I posted the videos of "anti-Zionist" videos in which the crowd was calling for the killing of all jews a while ago), and polls/surveys conducted among Muslims by the Pew Research center, this is cause for alarm.
In Heerfordt (Germany), Yezidhis demonstrated against ISIS and were brutally beat up by Salafists in response. When a Yezidhi shop owner filed charges, he was again "visited" by two IS-supporters and threatened - luckily, the perpetrators were caught.
While the events in Israel prompted huge riots in several European cities (many of which were organized by local mosques), the onslaught of ISIS has gone without much recognition.

Don't get me wrong - I am not saying that I expect every Muslim to demonstrate against the Islamic State.. I am, however, growing tired of the fact that many Muslim communities portray themselves to be victim of an "oppressive, islam hating" government because our educational system (coed sports, coed swimming lessons) clash with their fundamental beliefs.
The fact that more than half of all Germans are growing more anxious in regards to Islam and terrorism should be a signal that the Muslim community - if they oppose terror as a political means and oppose religious extremism - is not doing enough to clearly distance themselves from these atrocities.

Of course, one must be very careful not to generalize, but I also believe it is the duty and responsibility of a supposed "silent majority" to distance themselves from radical, violence-advocating alleged minorities.

And, again, I don't consider the "Religion of Peace" Site to be a credible source in any respect - but their aggregated list of surveys and polls does seem to paint the picture that one shouldn't underestimate the violent potential of our Islamic communities.

The question - obviously - is in what way we can provide policies that counteract these tendencies. While social policies aiming at better integration by providing free education, welfare and security are nice and all, I think the fact that the political ideology that is deeply rooted in Islam is not criticised vehemently is part of current failures.
Integration programs to help topple right-wing and left-wing extremism have been very successful, for the most part, because they combine reeducation and social welfare. For toppling Islamic extremism, the aspect of reeducation (coupled with open criticism of the religion's antidemocratic and racist political dimension) needs to be brought into focus.

the vast majority of Muslims in Germany are quite compromised eating pork and drinking for instance. But when it comes to something like Israel or any perceived attack on the Ummah there remains a strong connection with the Middle East. For most that will not translate into the kinds of scenes you showed in those youtube videos though. I did some investigating after our last conversation on German anti-Semitism. It is mainly in these radical Muslim groups but not exclusively. I was shocked in conversation with work colleagues to be told that there was a Doppelmoral thing going on with many Germans. They know how to behave for the international crowd but then there are the jokes they share amongst themselves. This is definitely not all Germans either.

Also up to now violence in Germany itself has been kept to a minimum. I wonder how tolerant of Radical Islam most Germans would be if there was an incident like 911 or 77 here.

Personally in the long run I think the problem of Islam in Europe may be solved in one of 3 ways.

1) Conversion to Christianity
2) Annihilation - as with the Jews (Obviously not what anyone wants to see happen)
3) Integration.

3) Is going to take generations and there are so many things that can upset the process and radicalise a new generation of Muslims. Social media can help or hinder integration providing both the opportunity to hang out in radicalised cliques and the possibility of gaining a more balanced new perspective

 

[Senator Cheese]

They are also relatively disciplined as an outfit and can respond to media reactions. As you say the news output is controlled to maximise fear in their opponents and to project an Islamic picture of themselves that will win recruits to their cause. But I wonder if unfavourable reports would even make the news channels these Western recruits watch. I buy my kebabs regularly from a Doner place for instance and they always have these Sunni news channels on. The standard media are distrusted and ignored if they say anything negative about Islam. Also there is a measure of intimidation of journalists and news networks going on as was evident in Gaza for instance.

One thing that I have witnessed across the board among many young Muslims is a combination of a deep feeling of being a victim of oppression everywhere - coupled with a "build your own world" conspiracy theory when it comes to global politics.

The fact that the German high court ordered that a "burkini" was enough coverage to warrant that Muslim girls need to partake in regular swim classes caused a multitude of arguments claiming "islamophobia" and "oppression of Muslims" is an example for that. Medical students at a state university in the western part of Germany refused to partake in CPR-classes because the movements apparently prompted "sexual arousal" in the male professors/students who tutored the class. They demanded solely female tutors - their demands could not be met - they claimed it was oppression.

The same goes for the constant claim that the German media is part of a zionist conspiracy. Claims that go so far as to say that ISIS is "controlled by the Jews" and that the German media is "covering up" what is happening in Gaza. Armenian genocide? Never happened. Holocaust? Grossly exaggerated. September 11th? Jews. 7/7? Jews.

As such, yes, the claims of mass rape and beheading of children are washed away as the "typical" media conspiracy to discredit Islam.
Still, I am certain that not everyone would close their eyes if there were more evidence of these attrocities, seeing as how mass rape cannot be justified by the Quoran whereas mass murder obviously can (as "defensive" Jihad against those who oppose the caliphate). Respectively, I think ISIS is not sharing videos of all of their crimes, instead only spreading the ones they deem purposeful.

the vast majority of Muslims in Germany are quite compromised eating pork and drinking for instance. But when it comes to something like Israel or any perceived attack on the Ummah there remains a strong connection with the Middle East. For most that will not translate into the kinds of scenes you showed in those youtube videos though. I did some investigating after our last conversation on German anti-Semitism. It is mainly in these radical Muslim groups but not exclusively. I was shocked in conversation with work colleagues to be told that there was a Doppelmoral thing going on with many Germans. They know how to behave for the international crowd but then there are the jokes they share amongst themselves. This is definitely not all Germans either.

Extremism runs high among Germans aswell. The Left (3rd largest faction), for example, has a very large antisemitic wing (historical sympathies with Gazan hijackers who wanted to aid the Red Army Faction, hate for Zionism) - same goes for parts of the extreme Right aswell.
=> then again, I think extremism might not be the right word. I would assume that about a third of Germans hold some prejudice and about 5% actually hate jews regardless of knowing them.
I would also assume similar figures for anti-African-American sentiments among US citizens

Then there's a large group that believes that Palestine is being categorically "oppressed" by Israel, based largely on misinformation and misrepresentation -
with no knowledge of the unilateral disengagement or the background as to why certain measures (fence building, blockade) have their justification.
These usually aren't necessarily antisemitic, though.

Most of these extremist views are, however, purely of theoretical nature and oftentimes even guided by good intentions (helping the oppressed, believing that any problem can be solved via humanitarian aid). As such, this type of antizionism/antisemitism is fundamentally different from those who believe it is their holy duty to fight "world jewdom".

Also up to now violence in Germany itself has been kept to a minimum. I wonder how tolerant of Radical Islam most Germans would be if there was an incident like 911 or 77 here.

I sometimes wonder that, aswell. We can be lucky that this hasn't happened as of yet - though there have been multiple attempts.
Even without terror attacks, I believe that sentiments have been changing rapidly in the past few weeks. Let's hope that this change of heart translates into political will and hinders such an attack from ever happening.

1) Conversion to Christianity
2) Annihilation - as with the Jews (Obviously not what anyone wants to see happen)
3) Integration.

3) Is going to take generations and there are so many things that can upset the process and radicalise a new generation of Muslims. Social media can help or hinder integration providing both the opportunity to hang out in radicalised cliques and the possibility of gaining a more balanced new perspective

I don't really care what religion people convert to. The majority of people I have to do with are Atheist, followed by Christians and Muslims, followed by Hindus, Buddhists and smaller religious groups (Yezhidis, Baha'i). Everyone seems to be getting along fine, except for most of the Muslims. Even Muslim friends who I once considered very integrated (partying, having fun, being far from what I would consider very orthodox) ended up posting anti-Jewish content on facebook. While I see that most Hindus partake in many community festivities and hang out with other Europeans, the Muslims mostly stay to themselves.
What I'm trying to say is that I (obviously) have a very high view of Christianity, I don't see much of a problem in converting to any other religion that is dedicated to minority rights, freedom and peace.

As for (3) - I think that's the only realistic option we have. I welcome integration, but I think more needs to be done to bring Islam into an open discussion and make people aware that many of the topics in the Quoran will never be an acceptable way of life. Just like no sane Christian will advocate the stoning of adulterers and homosexuals in these times, Muslims need to realize that corresponding commands in the Quoran cannot be taken seriously either.
And that's where the conflict comes up: where Christians have been relieved of the first covenant and those commands do not apply to Christians (from a theological standpoint), Islam is in direct contradiction to that worldview. After all, if the Quoran was revealed by Allah directly, then who are "we" to say that the command to behead converts and to stone adulterers are "wrong"?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I don't really care what religion people convert to. The majority of people I have to do with are Atheist, followed by Christians and Muslims, followed by Hindus, Buddhists and smaller religious groups (Yezhidis, Baha'i). Everyone seems to be getting along fine, except for most of the Muslims. Even Muslim friends who I once considered very integrated (partying, having fun, being far from what I would consider very orthodox) ended up posting anti-Jewish content on facebook. While I see that most Hindus partake in many community festivities and hang out with other Europeans, the Muslims mostly stay to themselves.

What I'm trying to say is that I (obviously) have a very high view of Christianity, I don't see much of a problem in converting to any other religion that is dedicated to minority rights, freedom and peace........

Except for back during the inquisitions and barbaric early RCC, so do I.

Judaism and Islam have way too much legalism and judgentalism for my palate....Here is an interesting that just started on GT:

http://www.christianforums.com/t7837100/
In 2014, would Christ choose Judaism or Christianity?

Originally Posted by Darth Bagel

I was reading some comments after an article on a website that I like, and one of the individuals mentioned that he reverted to Judaism from Christianity because of the rampant judgmentalism in Christianity...........
​

,

 

[Senator Cheese]

Except for back during the inquisitions and barbaric early RCC, so do I.

With the difference being that the inquisitions and crusades (is that what you mean by RCC?) have no scriptural merit at all (if you think otherwise, let me know, I haven't read the Bible in whole, only the NT). The ruling elite was simply exploiting the fact that very few were literate and that most of the churchgoers were simply hearing sermons in latin - hence the Lutheran need for translation of the Bible into German.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7837100/

Thanks for the info

 

[mindlight]

One thing that I have witnessed across the board among many young Muslims is a combination of a deep feeling of being a victim of oppression everywhere - coupled with a "build your own world" conspiracy theory when it comes to global politics.

Deceived rebels seeking attention. Sounds like kids from large families who lack a true fathers love. People with this victim complex are never able to take responsibility for their own failings.

However I am reminded of a story of a bright young Turkish girl who was told that even though she had the grades she would not be able to go to university and would have to marry an older man she did not love. She committed suicide rather than submit to this. Maybe all too many of these people are really victims of their own leaders. But in turn that sense of victimhood is transferred on to the convenient scape goats of Jews, Americans and Christians.

The fact that the German high court ordered that a "burkini" was enough coverage to warrant that Muslim girls need to partake in regular swim classes caused a multitude of arguments claiming "islamophobia" and "oppression of Muslims" is an example for that. Medical students at a state university in the western part of Germany refused to partake in CPR-classes because the movements apparently prompted "sexual arousal" in the male professors/students who tutored the class. They demanded solely female tutors - their demands could not be met - they claimed it was oppression.

The Muslim respect for the chastity and modesty of women is not an altogether bad thing. I only come from Britain but found the openness of Germans about their bodies a little hard to handle at first. Seeing naked women in public swim baths in mixed sex showers for instance was a surprise! Maybe Burqas hide more complexes than they protect but I happen to agree with the German court decision. Muslim girls have no excuse not to integrate by this ruling as their chastity and modesty is respected by wearing a Burquini

The same goes for the constant claim that the German media is part of a zionist conspiracy. Claims that go so far as to say that ISIS is "controlled by the Jews" and that the German media is "covering up" what is happening in Gaza. Armenian genocide? Never happened. Holocaust? Grossly exaggerated. September 11th? Jews. 7/7? Jews.

These claims would be laughable were it not for the fact that 6 million dead Jews, 6 million dead Armenians, 2 million dead Greeks and all the victims of Al Qaeda and ISIS scream its deadly reality followed by the attempt to cover up what has been done.

As such, yes, the claims of mass rape and beheading of children are washed away as the "typical" media conspiracy to discredit Islam.
Still, I am certain that not everyone would close their eyes if there were more evidence of these attrocities, seeing as how mass rape cannot be justified by the Quoran whereas mass murder obviously can (as "defensive" Jihad against those who oppose the caliphate). Respectively, I think ISIS is not sharing videos of all of their crimes, instead only spreading the ones they deem purposeful.

These reports are being received by the UN and the numbers of them has been sufficient for them to comment with some concern about them. Though I notice the main stream media have ignored even this source of information.

United Nations News Centre - ‘Barbaric’ sexual violence perpetrated by Islamic State militants in Iraq – UN

Extremism runs high among Germans aswell. The Left (3rd largest faction), for example, has a very large antisemitic wing (historical sympathies with Gazan hijackers who wanted to aid the Red Army Faction, hate for Zionism) - same goes for parts of the extreme Right aswell.
=> then again, I think extremism might not be the right word. I would assume that about a third of Germans hold some prejudice and about 5% actually hate jews regardless of knowing them.

I must admit I have mainly ignored the Left wing idiots on the streets throwing stones and abuse at police officers. But these are far more a source of deception and anti-Semitic violence than the right. But I see some of their views are actually being taken seriously by sectors of the German media and of course they can have such devastating consequences in the shape of terror organisations (as at the Munich games). Also they are shared to some extent more widely in the German silent majority who have learnt to conceal these views - I need to pay more attention to what people say and how they say it. I wonder how these attitudes are split between East and West Germany. That die Linke get any votes has always been mysterious to me but I understand they get most of these from the east. Are these from die hard Commies who will die out in a generation or so or are they newly converted students?

I would also assume similar figures for anti-African-American sentiments among US citizens

The racism thing is an odd feature of American politics long past its overdue date. Though black and white people probably both make their own contributions to this.

Then there's a large group that believes that Palestine is being categorically "oppressed" by Israel, based largely on misinformation and misrepresentation -
with no knowledge of the unilateral disengagement or the background as to why certain measures (fence building, blockade) have their justification.
These usually aren't necessarily antisemitic, though.

Most of these extremist views are, however, purely of theoretical nature and oftentimes even guided by good intentions (helping the oppressed, believing that any problem can be solved via humanitarian aid). As such, this type of antizionism/antisemitism is fundamentally different from those who believe it is their holy duty to fight "world jewdom".

Yes there is a difference in rationale and in the passions with which these prejudices are pursued. Also Zionism is not perfect and builds its own prosecutions case altoften. Maybe one thing I am missing in Germany that I saw more often in the British and especially American church is a fundamental conviction amongst Christians that Jews remain a chosen people whom God has preserved down 3000 years of pogroms and attempts at annihilation for a reason. That the return to Israel and the reactions of those who hate what it stands for testifies to something seismic in significance. Coming down on the wrong side of Gods plan is foolishness by any account and those who do that often do so in his Name and with a special zeal. Most Germans treat Israel as just another nation and that larger context and purpose is lost on them. As the guilt for WW2 fades there is less to hold them to their support for Israel than amongst Israels true friends in America for instance.

I sometimes wonder that, aswell. We can be lucky that this hasn't happened as of yet - though there have been multiple attempts.
Even without terror attacks, I believe that sentiments have been changing rapidly in the past few weeks. Let's hope that this change of heart translates into political will and hinders such an attack from ever happening.

I think it would be a mistake for the terrorists to strike here as they are more likely to win Germans to their side with a propaganda campaign and especially targeting the media and the universities. Also most Muslims here are not that radical and I think they would lose a large % of their own people by any act of brutality.

I don't really care what religion people convert to. The majority of people I have to do with are Atheist, followed by Christians and Muslims, followed by Hindus, Buddhists and smaller religious groups (Yezhidis, Baha'i). Everyone seems to be getting along fine, except for most of the Muslims. Even Muslim friends who I once considered very integrated (partying, having fun, being far from what I would consider very orthodox) ended up posting anti-Jewish content on facebook. While I see that most Hindus partake in many community festivities and hang out with other Europeans, the Muslims mostly stay to themselves.
What I'm trying to say is that I (obviously) have a very high view of Christianity, I don't see much of a problem in converting to any other religion that is dedicated to minority rights, freedom and peace.

As for (3) - I think that's the only realistic option we have. I welcome integration, but I think more needs to be done to bring Islam into an open discussion and make people aware that many of the topics in the Quoran will never be an acceptable way of life. Just like no sane Christian will advocate the stoning of adulterers and homosexuals in these times, Muslims need to realize that corresponding commands in the Quoran cannot be taken seriously either.
And that's where the conflict comes up: where Christians have been relieved of the first covenant and those commands do not apply to Christians (from a theological standpoint), Islam is in direct contradiction to that worldview. After all, if the Quoran was revealed by Allah directly, then who are "we" to say that the command to behead converts and to stone adulterers are "wrong"?

I am not sure the New Testament is enough to understand the full political significance of Christs message and what Christian governance and law might look like.

Dialoging with Muslims could be good if we could trust that the hard questions could be asked and responded to and by more than a few trained Muslim academics who are too trained to change. But I think the basic thing is to maintain the rule of law, the freedom to speak freely and practice ones religion freely and therefore to allow these conversations to take place at every level of society. Also the consequence of conversion cannot ever be allowed to be death here in Germany.

Exposure of the rapes and child murders of supposedly devout Muslims in this new Muslim Caliphate is a good place to start.

 

[Senator Cheese]

Deceived rebels seeking attention. Sounds like kids from large families who lack a true fathers love. People with this victim complex are never able to take responsibility for their own failings.

However I am reminded of a story of a bright young Turkish girl who was told that even though she had the grades she would not be able to go to university and would have to marry an older man she did not love. She committed suicide rather than submit to this. Maybe all too many of these people are really victims of their own leaders. But in turn that sense of victimhood is transferred on to the convenient scape goats of Jews, Americans and Christians.

Yes, that makes a lot of sense. From a psychological view, it's easy to understand why people enjoy their belief in conspiracy theories - it's a scapegoat, and it provides a sense of order. Anything that doesn't fit into the world view can be blended out.
Sadly, that doesn't make the problem easier to tackle. :/

The Muslim respect for the chastity and modesty of women is not an altogether bad thing. I only come from Britain but found the openness of Germans about their bodies a little hard to handle at first. Seeing naked women in public swim baths in mixed sex showers for instance was a surprise! Maybe Burqas hide more complexes than they protect but I happen to agree with the German court decision. Muslim girls have no excuse not to integrate by this ruling as their chastity and modesty is respected by wearing a Burquini

Heh, I actually had thought along that line once, too - we often portray ourselves to be a very advanced civilization and yet we also tend to be very primordial in our judgement, choosing looks and attractiveness over character.
On the other hand, the freedom to be so primordial justifies not following this type of extreme modesty.
And as for Germans getting naked - heh, that sounds like Germany alright. It's against the law to wear textiles in a Sauna. I don't enjoy it, but then again that's the way our society is.
Either way, my point was merely that many Muslims feel "oppressed" at the sight of any ruling that may conflict with their traditionalist religious beliefs. Where it's simply practical and fair to demand that every student has equal obligations in sports classes, they view it as a heinous infringement on their beliefs.

These claims would be laughable were it not for the fact that 6 million dead Jews, 6 million dead Armenians, 2 million dead Greeks and all the victims of Al Qaeda and ISIS scream its deadly reality followed by the attempt to cover up what has been done.

Yeah, well, try telling that to someone with these beliefs. They'll ask for proof, evidence, deny it all and say we weren't there and that these are lies spread by the Zionists. Meanwhile, even the Arab-Nazi collaboration is a taboo subject that is never mentioned in history class... and we have a lot of information on WWII in history class (for good reason).

These reports are being received by the UN and the numbers of them has been sufficient for them to comment with some concern about them. Though I notice the main stream media have ignored even this source of information.

United Nations News Centre - ‘Barbaric’ sexual violence perpetrated by Islamic State militants in Iraq – UN

Again, I don't doubt the atrocities committed by ISIS. I am just saying that although at first sight it might sound schizophrenic, it's their intention to spread videos of beheadings and executions while it is absolutely against their intention of spreading beheadings of children and sexual violence.

I must admit I have mainly ignored the Left wing idiots on the streets throwing stones and abuse at police officers. But these are far more a source of deception and anti-Semitic violence than the right. But I see some of their views are actually being taken seriously by sectors of the German media and of course they can have such devastating consequences in the shape of terror organisations (as at the Munich games). Also they are shared to some extent more widely in the German silent majority who have learnt to conceal these views - I need to pay more attention to what people say and how they say it. I wonder how these attitudes are split between East and West Germany. That die Linke get any votes has always been mysterious to me but I understand they get most of these from the east. Are these from die hard Commies who will die out in a generation or so or are they newly converted students?

Germany is much more left than the United States or any other European nation I know of. The US Republicans would likely be considered a "right-wing populist" or "right wing extremist" group here. As for the Left, it's a combination of DDR traditionalists, new left-avantgarde and just protest voters who are tired of the four major parties.
In general, both the Greens and the Left aren't really one party but split among several platforms referred to as the "Fundis" (fundamentalists) and the "Realos" (realists). The latter tend to advocate policy that is less radical and more realistic whereas the former tries to stick to fundamental policies. In the question of arming the Kurds, for example, the Left realists advocated arms shipments whereas the fundamentalists cited that this contradicts pacifist theories.
A large part of the Left are former SPD-voters who feel that the SPD has become too moderate since they cut welfare under Schroeder.

The racism thing is an odd feature of American politics long past its overdue date. Though black and white people probably both make their own contributions to this.

I'm not denying that. I merely wanted to say that among Germans, antisemitism is about as prevalent as prejudice towards any other group by any group.

Yes there is a difference in rationale and in the passions with which these prejudices are pursued. Also Zionism is not perfect and builds its own prosecutions case altoften. Maybe one thing I am missing in Germany that I saw more often in the British and especially American church is a fundamental conviction amongst Christians that Jews remain a chosen people whom God has preserved down 3000 years of pogroms and attempts at annihilation for a reason. That the return to Israel and the reactions of those who hate what it stands for testifies to something seismic in significance. Coming down on the wrong side of Gods plan is foolishness by any account and those who do that often do so in his Name and with a special zeal. Most Germans treat Israel as just another nation and that larger context and purpose is lost on them. As the guilt for WW2 fades there is less to hold them to their support for Israel than amongst Israels true friends in America for instance.

The problem among Germans is that they felt "guilted" into providing Israel with "support no matter what". Virtually everyone of the younger generation, myself included, feels that there is no "moral obligation" due to history to stand by the Jewish state. It just seems wrong to feel obligated to do something because of the sins of the previous generations.

This reduces credibility - whenever someone mentions our "historic responsibility" for Israel, it just sounds like a "well, our country perpetrated the Holocaust, so we need to stick by Israel this time again". This means that real arguments (for which there are plentiful) to support the Israeli struggles against terrorism aren't heard.

As for Israel being the chosen people, that is indeed something that our state churches do not advocate as much. Then again, I do not advocate to base foreign policy on Christian faith, but on secular humanism. Most German "Christians" aren't very faithful and would not deem such an OT-derived argument to be a valid reason to conduct policy. As such, I would keep such argumentation out of any discussion and focus on the reality, which is that the State of Israel is home to a displaced and persecuted people that is surrounded by extremist neighbors who want to destroy it - and who would not think twice about destroying our world of values in a second.

I think it would be a mistake for the terrorists to strike here as they are more likely to win Germans to their side with a propaganda campaign and especially targeting the media and the universities. Also most Muslims here are not that radical and I think they would lose a large % of their own people by any act of brutality.

Indeed, targeting media and universities is underway already. We have very influential Salafist speakers (Pierre Vogel, for example) who are already contributing to widespread radicalization.
As for how many Muslims here are really "not that radical", I will hope that you are correct. I was very shocked and outraged to see what my supposed friends were posting on Facebook when this latest Israeli operation in Gaza started. It sent chills down my spine to see antisemitic and racist posts on facebook by those who I had once considered to be the most moderate Muslims I know.

I am not sure the New Testament is enough to understand the full political significance of Christs message and what Christian governance and law might look like.

I am not sure, either. But I know that to me, the New Testament is a coherent witness to the accounts of Jesus Christ and his teachings. I believe that the New Testament is the greatest collection of books ever written.
And the nice thing (for Atheists) is that following the New Testament is an interval between (at worst) following the beliefs of the greatest pacifist social reformer of his time and (at best) following the beliefs of the son of God.

This is very off topic, but I sometimes just can't believe that a loving God would command a nation to committ genocide, or to impose such a strict and unforgiving punitive legal system.
But, yes, it is a very important topic. I'd love to hear your opinion on this, but maybe we should take it to another thread?

Dialoging with Muslims could be good if we could trust that the hard questions could be asked and responded to and by more than a few trained Muslim academics who are too trained to change. But I think the basic thing is to maintain the rule of law, the freedom to speak freely and practice ones religion freely and therefore to allow these conversations to take place at every level of society. Also the consequence of conversion cannot ever be allowed to be death here in Germany.

Bingo.
Obviously, the hard questions have to be asked. But we also need to accept hard answers and move towards finding a proper response. If someone believes the Quoran is the unabridged word of God and that all territories that were ever won by Islamic conquest (that includes Spain, not just Israel) must be fought for in Jihad, then we must face the fact that our different world views are incompatible.

Exposure of the rapes and child murders of supposedly devout Muslims in this new Muslim Caliphate is a good place to start.

Indeed.

 

[mindlight]

Anglican church criticises Camerons Middle Eastern policy: Dear prime minister: what is the UK government's strategy in Iraq and Syria? | World news | theguardian.com

 

[mindlight]

Yes, that makes a lot of sense. From a psychological view, it's easy to understand why people enjoy their belief in conspiracy theories - it's a scapegoat, and it provides a sense of order. Anything that doesn't fit into the world view can be blended out.
Sadly, that doesn't make the problem easier to tackle. :/

They commit murder and blame the guy they hate as the reason for it. Holding people to account for actions they commit requires control of legal institutions.

Either way, my point was merely that many Muslims feel "oppressed" at the sight of any ruling that may conflict with their traditionalist religious beliefs. Where it's simply practical and fair to demand that every student has equal obligations in sports classes, they view it as a heinous infringement on their beliefs.

This is the essential dilemma. Which has the prior call Ummah or host country. I must confess to understanding this mentality as i would place church over country and especially in the modern era where Britain has lost its way.

Yeah, well, try telling that to someone with these beliefs. They'll ask for proof, evidence, deny it all and say we weren't there and that these are lies spread by the Zionists. Meanwhile, even the Arab-Nazi collaboration is a taboo subject that is never mentioned in history class... and we have a lot of information on WWII in history class (for good reason).

As the last living survivors start to die off this becomes all the more worrying.
The evidence is overwhelming but it seems to me that scepticism reveals ones actual allegiance rather than honesty.

Again, I don't doubt the atrocities committed by ISIS. I am just saying that although at first sight it might sound schizophrenic, it's their intention to spread videos of beheadings and executions while it is absolutely against their intention of spreading beheadings of children and sexual violence.

It is the Americans that control the internet not ISIS. But it is possible these stories do not reach their for simple reasons like poor people have no cameras or have them stolen, the witnesses are killed and ISiS have enough discipline to cover their tracks.

The problem among Germans is that they felt "guilted" into providing Israel with "support no matter what". Virtually everyone of the younger generation, myself included, feels that there is no "moral obligation" due to history to stand by the Jewish state. It just seems wrong to feel obligated to do something because of the sins of the previous generations.

The sentiment that this must never happen again should hold every generation of Germans in my view.

This reduces credibility - whenever someone mentions our "historic responsibility" for Israel, it just sounds like a "well, our country perpetrated the Holocaust, so we need to stick by Israel this time again". This means that real arguments (for which there are plentiful) to support the Israeli struggles against terrorism aren't heard.

There are other good secular reasons to support Israel. The if they fall we are next being especially powerful.

As for Israel being the chosen people, that is indeed something that our state churches do not advocate as much. Then again, I do not advocate to base foreign policy on Christian faith, but on secular humanism. Most German "Christians" aren't very faithful and would not deem such an OT-derived argument to be a valid reason to conduct policy. As such, I would keep such argumentation out of any discussion and focus on the reality, which is that the State of Israel is home to a displaced and persecuted people that is surrounded by extremist neighbors who want to destroy it - and who would not think twice about destroying our world of values in a second.

This is the same blindness to God plan and word that led to the theological liberalism of the late nineteenth century and the nihilist void that permitted the rise of the Nazis. Germans need to get back into scripture. The liberalism and lack of missionary zeal of the Evangelische Kirche is deep problem for the future of Germany. Theological education today breeds atheists and the church is too rich and insulated from real world questions and struggles. The lack of awareness of the meaning of Israel and the Jews is merely the tip of the iceberg here.

Indeed, targeting media and universities is underway already. We have very influential Salafist speakers (Pierre Vogel, for example) who are already contributing to widespread radicalization.
As for how many Muslims here are really "not that radical", I will hope that you are correct. I was very shocked and outraged to see what my supposed friends were posting on Facebook when this latest Israeli operation in Gaza started. It sent chills down my spine to see antisemitic and racist posts on facebook by those who I had once considered to be the most moderate Muslims I know.

I am less surprised by the radical undercurrents of Islam than by German weakness in the face oc it. A weakness that reveals a lack of awareness of scripture and a barren prayer life.

I am not sure, either. But I know that to me, the New Testament is a coherent witness to the accounts of Jesus Christ and his teachings. I believe that the New Testament is the greatest collection of books ever written.
And the nice thing (for Atheists) is that following the New Testament is an interval between (at worst) following the beliefs of the greatest pacifist social reformer of his time and (at best) following the beliefs of the son of God.

This is very off topic, but I sometimes just can't believe that a loving God would command a nation to committ genocide, or to impose such a strict and unforgiving punitive legal system.
But, yes, it is a very important topic. I'd love to hear your opinion on this, but maybe we should take it to another thread?

The old testament has its place and the New Testament cannot be understood without it. God sanctioned the genocide in Canaan but not the one going on in Iraq. Start a thread if you want to pursue that one. People forget Islam followed Christianity and indeed many view its texts as an attempt to neutralise they key appeal of Christianity e.g in terms of assurance of redemption and relationship with God for instance. Also historically Muslim territories are only ever won by force the rationale for which requires a full scriptural response and not merely a liberal New Testament one.

Bingo.
Obviously, the hard questions have to be asked. But we also need to accept hard answers and move towards finding a proper response. If someone believes the Quoran is the unabridged word of God and that all territories that were ever won by Islamic conquest (that includes Spain, not just Israel) must be fought for in Jihad, then we must face the fact that our different world views are incompatible.

The hard questions about the Qurans authenticity have not really been asked. The bible by contrast has survived these criticisms intact. A false zeal is merely dangerous and requires a very firm response in the case of jihad. The apparent lack of purposeful intent in British and American leaders is the real crisis here that permits the events we are now seeing unfolding.