The Kurds might not be able to hold against ISIS

[GarfieldJL]

If America did not spread so much negative propaganda about Iran,
instead tried to find some common ground along with other nations, there maybe a light at the end of the tunnel.

Except the problem with your argument is that Iran is a state sponsor of terror, and the Iranians were largely the ones that armed a lot of ISIS in the first place...

 

[Robban]

Except the problem with your argument is that Iran is a state sponsor of terror, and the Iranians were largely the ones that armed a lot of ISIS in the first place...

That statement you will have to stand for,

What do say to my post#37,

I do not follow the news, I have no means to, I have the internet, but not for that kind of thing,

The glimt I get is here on CF, but most of those threads I don,t bother to read.

I know zero about Islam,
don,t Think I,m obligated to either.

 

[GarfieldJL]

That statement you will have to stand for,

What do say to my post#37,

I do not follow the news, I have no means to, I have the internet, but not for that kind of thing,

The glimt I get is here on CF, but most of those threads I don,t bother to read.

I know zero about Islam,
don,t Think I,m obligated to either.

ISIS got a lot of their weapons from Iran when Iran was trying to destabilize Iraq. That being said, Iran probably didn't anticipate this blowing up in their face like this.

ISIS is targetting Christians and Shiite muslims, Iran is Majority Shiite, so they probably want to take down ISIS because they're a bunch of fanatical nutcases.

In all honesty, I would suggest that the Iraqi Government and the Kurds clear Egyptian, Jordanian, and possibly Israeli air forces to conduct military airstrikes (the fact ISIS was crazy enough to threaten Mecca may actually be enough to get other middle eastern countries to turn a blind eye to Israel jumping into the fight). Considering Israel has the best airforce in the Middle East (arguably the best in the world as far as piloting skill), Egypt either has the 2nd or 3rd most powerful airforce, and Jordan would be a good staging ground to launch attacks, it is reasonable to assume they could take ISIS down a few pegs.

 

[Robban]

ISIS got a lot of their weapons from Iran when Iran was trying to destabilize Iraq. That being said, Iran probably didn't anticipate this blowing up in their face like this.

ISIS is targetting Christians and Shiite muslims, Iran is Majority Shiite, so they probably want to take down ISIS because they're a bunch of fanatical nutcases.

In all honesty, I would suggest that the Iraqi Government and the Kurds clear Egyptian, Jordanian, and possibly Israeli air forces to conduct military airstrikes (the fact ISIS was crazy enough to threaten Mecca may actually be enough to get other middle eastern countries to turn a blind eye to Israel jumping into the fight). Considering Israel has the best airforce in the Middle East (arguably the best in the world as far as piloting skill), Egypt either has the 2nd or 3rd most powerful airforce, and Jordan would be a good staging ground to launch attacks, it is reasonable to assume they could take ISIS down a few pegs.

Well, reckon Muslim "countries" should play a leading role in bringing an end to it.

Otherwise I fear for the many muslim neighbours I have.

Was wondering if they feel embarassed over the situation.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

If love is to be our banner then I think I see this situation very differently to you. Love for the victims and the potential victims of the genocide these guys are unleashing, love for the God they blaspheme with their beheadings of Christian children is what motivates me.
Individuals like the son of the founder of Hamas have been converted but in this case the group and its story needs breaking in the military arena also.

If we claim Christ, then there really is no way of escaping the bottom line reality that love for our enemies is what Christ has called for and advocated - it was never just love for those who were suffering....but also love/mercy for those who are being harmed as well. Luke 6:17-38 was rather direct when it came to what Christ said on the matter of how we're to treat those who are our enemies.

And others in the Early Church echoed the same sentiments when they were being harmed as well. Hate will only produce hate - and that is exactly what fuels those who do evil. You cannot kill a spirit - for the same demonic spirit that drove them to do the evil things they began in the first place will simply jump to someone else. However, you can control how much influence the demon has upon others if you infect them with the love you have...

As others in the Early Church noted best:

“Whoever prays for those who hurt him lays the demons low; but he who opposes his affronter is bound to the demons.”

– St. Mark the Ascetic, Homilies, 1.45


“If you are remembering evil against someone, then pray for him; and as you remove through prayer the pain of the remembrance of the evil he has done, you will stop the advance of the passion. And when you have attained brotherly love and love for mankind, you will completely cast this passion out of your soul. Then when someone else does evil to you, be affectionate and humble toward him, and treat him kindly, and you will deliver him from this passion.”

– St. Maximus the Confessor, Chapters on Love, 3.90
​

"At Babylon the daughter of an important person was possessed by a devil. A monk for whom her father had a great affection came to the house. When the monk arrived, the woman possessed with the devil came and slapped him. But he only turned the other cheek, according to the Lord's command (cf. Mt. 5:39). The devil, tortured by this, cried out, 'What violence! The commandment of Jesus drives me out.' Immediately the woman was cleansed. This is how the pride of the devil is brought low, through the humility of the commandment of Christ."

~Abba Daniel of the Desert​

For further reference on practical ways others have sought to live this out:

• Engaging Islam by Buddy Hoffman

• Empathy in an Age of Terrorism - Q Ideas

Additionally, to be clear, I have shared my own thoughts elsewhere as it concerns the issue of Radical Islam and how we're to respond to it and take it seriously when it comes to violence (as seen here and here/here/here/here, herec and here). Military intervention is not always the best and it is because of U.S military intervention that much of the crisis began in the first place....just as it did with Syria and other places (more shared here and in Cairo death poll passes 500). As said elsewhere:

That seems to be the message that the Christians want sent and really the only biblical Christian answer. To truly conquer an enemy the only way is to make them your friend.

I'd highly suggest investigating the book entitled "Waging Peace on Islam" Waging Peace on Islam... | 89.9 LightFM

​

Christine Mallouhi, in her book Waging Peace on Islam , (more here, and here ), shared the story of St. Francis of Assisi, who during the height of the Crusades traveled to Egypt and visited the Sultan Kamil (the nephew of the great Islamic leader Saladin). Francis came in humility and peace, in contrast to the conquering Crusaders. His approach and attitude so impressed the Muslim Sultan that he invited Francis to send his Little Brothers throughout his territory. It is out of this experience that we have perhaps Francis’s wisest counsel: “Preach the Gospel at all times, and if necessary, use words.” He saw the dignity of God in every Muslim person. Such grace toward Muslims was radical in his day, and still is in ours..

Hopefully that clarifies...

I live in Germany and the Nazis and Gestapo were not defeated by someone sharing the gospel with the monsters that used to rule here. They were stopped by brave soldiers on the front line who fought for the love of country and for a world that was not dominated by the evil that dominated their enemies.

Been to Germany myself. And having friends who grew up in Germany (one of them being a German pastor I worked with extensively and another one of them being a Messianic Jewish mom who lives there with her family), I understand where you're coming from. I am not ignorant to the evils that were done in Nazi Germany nor I am ignorant to the ways that others were taken out due to military action.

Nonetheless, the ways that others often assume that Germany alone is the basis for showing that militarism was a solution to issues......it is not as if Germany was the only place in the world that had problems like what you describe. We can see the Armenian Genocide, the Hmong and many other groups.

I'm often amazed at people often assume that taking out Hitler would've stopped WWII---and the same thing as it concerns WWI with military action alone solving issues.

For in both situations prior to the rise of Hitler and afterward, even admist the background of Germany being economically devestated during WWI aftemath by having to pay the bill for a war that the entire world was involved in (unfair) and open to radical action, it does seem that many other evils that happened later may've found a way to develop regardless.

Adolph Hitler took advantage of a situation that was already well under way when he was born. Antisemitism was rife in Germany, as was the belief in the natural superiority of the aryan race. Martin Luther was antisemitic. Pogroms had been conducted on numerous occasions against the Jews living in Germany. During the 19th century a congregant in a german church could expect to hear a sermon that was virulently antisemitic whenever he atttended a church service. Blind hatred had taken on the disguise of sanctity long before the 20th century dawned.

Was Hitler the impetus that led the people of Germany to replace rhetoric with firing squads and gas chambers? Yes, he was. But can we say that another person would not have done the same thing if Hitler himself had been killed earlier? No, we cannot. The hatred was too widespread, with too many people seeing the Jews as worthy only of death. Had Hitler not been there to fill the role of leadership, there would have been another to take his place. The perversion of sanctity had simply gotten to the point where the people were waiting for anyone at all to give them the order to kill.


Again, anti-semitism was something that pervaded the culture of Germany in many ways LONG before Hitler arrived...even though there were others who actively resisted against it. With Hitler himself, he was but a figurehead in many ways of the the desires of the general populace in many areas---and if the crowd was already distrustful of Jews, it's not a suprise to see how Hitler was able to get so much action backing him with combatting them. The radical mindset that accompanied the economic devestation of Germany during Hitler's rise would have found something else to attach itself to at some point...

And spiritually, many of the Churches in Germany also did their part in ensuring that much of how the Jews were seen was shown in a negative sense. Sadly, many of the churches in Germany did great error in aiding the Nazi regime and viewing the Jews wrongly...and the consequences are still here today...even though others often try to scapegoat things onto Hitler. For some good reviews:

• 
  Jesus and Hitler Atone for our Sins? - Jesus Radicals
  
  
• Hitler, the Church and Messianic Jews | - The Rosh Pina Project

Indeed, in many ways, Hitler would have simply been replaced by someone else had he been taken out long before he had the opportunity to do anything. And not realizing that can cause a world of actions to occur that may miss the root cause of things. Some of it seems similar to what occurred with 9/11 and how many were either demanding the bombing of the countries that terrorists came from---or demanding that all the terrorists be eliminated. For as another said, "You can kill the man who killed..but you cannot kill the spirit which drove him to killing." If a spirit of hatred was already existing and that spirit was birthed out of a certain mindset that was never addressed, one can only go so far in trying to selectively deal with people......


Again, what is often avoided (as many Germans have attested to) is the fact that the military action taken was not enough to erase the anti-semitism that actually led up to much of the genocides toward the Jewish people alongside other minority groups who were harmed - the U.S, in fact, was having extensive actions of genocide in its own history and was actively oppressing blacks in its own territory and saying nothing, from Jim Crow to beatings to lynchings and many other things. And MANY Jews experienced racism in the U.S also - both BEFORE the U.S/Allies came over and afterward. And the Blacks who died in the Holocaust of Germany as well as in German Holocausts throughout Africa is something that that goes alongside that. Militarism alone did not come anywhere close to saving the day.

There is a reason others stand out such as Deitrich Bonheffer - who was committed to changing others one life at a time and was deeply impacted by what he witnessed at Abyssinian Baptist Church in Harlem and the struggles Blacks had to deal with for centuries when it came to oppression, violence and a culture of death. Although his views changed in time, of course, he was still very much aware of how militarism was not always the SOLE solution to take when changing a cultural dynamic...

To be clear, of course I am not against the concept of self-defense. As a Black Hispanic, that is a basic reality that people in my culture had to deal with actively when it came to being left to themselves and having no protection from their local government - it is why I have NO issue (and I do mean none) with others being able to arm themselves with regards to self-defense, as Christ was never against that. There were so many saints involved in the Early Church who were warriors in the physical sense and others who were warriors more so from the spiritual sense (like the monks ), yet all were used greatly for Christ ( more in Monastics vs Military Might: Is Self-Defense against Perversion Right?

ISISs momentum of growth needs to be broken but the surrounding powers are still playing games against each other with the rise of this power and the Americans lack the political capital to intervene.
It may have to get a lot worse before people realise what is going on and decide to intervene. I just hope that when the right people act it is not too late to stop a bloodbath in the region.

I think where others get into trouble is assuming that the surrounding powers are NOT already involved in setting the situation up as it is...but that is ignoring the history behind how the IRAQ situation got developed and the U.S actively helped on shaping the matter. For reference:

• Invading Iraq 2.0: ISIS Propaganda, Proxy Wars and US-NATO’s ‘Blitzkrieg’ | Global Research

The same dynamics with the U.S making the Iraq region unstable and thus in the position of needing to look to the U.S as a "savior" (and subject to its agenda) has happened in other places, especially Africa (with many regretting they ever asked for help after seeing how things got worse)

 

[Blessedj01]

ISIS is spreading BECAUSE the US and Britain destabilized Iraq. I'm not saying nothing should be done, but what you call losing our balls, I call realizing that good intentions pave the path to hell.

We didn't make ISIS but we did help to create the situation. However now we are trying to wash our hands of it and sitting back while the Iraqi government appears powerless to stop them. Collectively we want to do nothing and that wont help.

 

[Blessedj01]

Interesting post, gxg. Thankyou.

 

[GarfieldJL]

We didn't make ISIS but we did help to create the situation. However now we are trying to wash our hands of it and sitting back while the Iraqi government appears powerless to stop them. Collectively we want to do nothing and that wont help.

I would also point out the flaw in people's argument when they say that the US created ISIS, because using that logic they are saying we shouldn't be responsible and go clean up the mess that, according to them, we're responsible for...

Obama had a chance to do serious damage to ISIS without causing civilian casualties some months back, and he chose to do nothing, I would call that gross negligence on his part.

 

[TLK Valentine]

Except the problem with your argument is that Iran is a state sponsor of terror, and the Iranians were largely the ones that armed a lot of ISIS in the first place...

And we helped arm Iran -- looks like nobody's hands are clean...

 

[Blessedj01]

I would also point out the flaw in people's argument when they say that the US created ISIS, because using that logic they are saying we shouldn't be responsible and go clean up the mess that, according to them, we're responsible for... Obama had a chance to do serious damage to ISIS without causing civilian casualties some months back, and he chose to do nothing, I would call that gross negligence on his part.

Yeah, well I'm always against removing the personal responsibility of wrongdoers. That excuse never worked for me before the judge in the courts in my old days.

 

[mindlight]

Obama authorises US air strikes to help Iraqis besieged on mountain by Isis | World news | theguardian.com

 

[S.ilvio]

As a XChristian I say thank you to the Obama administration for this offer. It may be late in coming but its never too late to do the right thing...

 

[MasterRich]

Are there any aid companies offering to help them out? Asking for donations and such?

 

[High Fidelity]

Yes they are in Lebanon now

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/05/world/middleeast/isis-lebanon-syria.html?_r=0

ISIS extends control into Lebanon, threatens 500,000 with captured Iraqi dam « Hot Air

And also there was an attack in Tripoli Lebanon also. It seems that they have an appeal across the whole Sunni Arab world.

They have also taken Iraqs largest Hydroelectric dam north of Mosul and could withhold water or flood with this or simply destroy it

Sunni insurgents 'seize Iraq's biggest dam' in defeat for Kurdish forces | World news | theguardian.com

One irony here is that if they reach any further towards Israels Northern border Hezbollah and Israel and indeed even Hamas may be fighting on the same side against them. That is if they can glance up long enough from their bickering to notice the machetes aimed at their heads.

I doubt Hezbollah and Hamas will fight ISIS.

The enemy of my enemy is my friend and all that.

 

[mindlight]

As a XChristian I say thank you to the Obama administration for this offer. It may be late in coming but its never too late to do the right thing...

Yes it is never too late to do the right thing. Wise words.

 

[mindlight]

Are there any aid companies offering to help them out? Asking for donations and such?

See my signature for Barnabus. There is also a large Anglican church in Baghdad that is doing all it can to help victims of ISIS from every religious background not just Christians

Make a donation to FRRME today!

This is the pastor speaking on the present troubles. I met this guy before the troubles and was deeply encouraged by his faith in what must be one the most difficult ministry postings in the world.

[youtube]BweJKj2DHkw[/youtube]

The Catholics are also very active.

 

[mindlight]

I doubt Hezbollah and Hamas will fight ISIS.

The enemy of my enemy is my friend and all that.

In the case of Hamas it is clear they hate Israel most. With Hezbollah it is harder to say. i think it is not clear who they hate more - Sunnis or Jews. I can imagine their heads spinning round and steam coming out of their ears as they wrestle with conflicting hatreds.

 

[Blessedj01]

This really is getting serious, isn't it. I think the world has totally missed the ball.

Too many people in this day and age think that the world is a massive place where things aren't connected.

 

[High Fidelity]

In the case of Hamas it is clear they hate Israel most. With Hezbollah it is harder to say. i think it is not clear who they hate more - Sunnis or Jews. I can imagine their heads spinning round and steam coming out of their ears as they wrestle with conflicting hatreds.

I imagine they'll take any help they can get.

If you're drowning, it doesn't really matter whose hand reaches to help you.

 

[MasterRich]

See my signature for Barnabus. There is also a large Anglican church in Baghdad that is doing all it can to help victims of ISIS from every religious background not just Christians

Make a donation to FRRME today!

Thanks!