The Arabic "nun" - supporting our Christian brothers and sisters

[Targaryen]

Does the feeling motivate you to do some sort of action? That's what I mean.

Notice the OP? Notice the nun symbol on some profiles or forum signatures?

 

[daydreamergurl15]

Okay, but the point of this thread, which I have tried to reinforce with my comments, is that there appears to be some suspicion of or hesitation to support the Middle Eastern Christians because they are too "Catholic" or are not "True Christians."

I met a woman who worshipped with us back and June, her and her husband does missionary work in the Middle East, and as we were talking she informed me that they are helping those persecuted from the inside, it's just not as well know. Does she help everyone who is there? No, she doesn't know them all. She doesn't turn anyone away. There are people who are there to help. And many churches support that work. We've also met a missionary who are stationed in Sudan (that might be the wrong place--I believe that is in Africa, the place he told me started with an S in the Middle East so I know that's the wrong place, I can't remember the name, but it is a different area then the first missionary family), who is also there helping. It might not be reported but Christians there are being helped.

I don't know what to say about the "appearance" of non-support to help the Catholics who are being persecute but Christian persecutions will not be on mainstream tv, so the majority of the Christians, will not know what is going on. But just so you know, help is there. There is definitely a need for more workers.

 

[GoingByzantine]

I met a woman who worshipped with us back and June, her and her husband does missionary work in the Middle East, and as we were talking she informed me that they are helping those persecuted from the inside, it's just not as well know. Does she help everyone who is there? No, she doesn't know them all. She doesn't turn anyone away. There are people who are there to help. And many churches support that work. We've also met a missionary who are stationed in Sudan (that might be the wrong place--I believe that is in Africa, the place he told me started with an S in the Middle East so I know that's the wrong place, I can't remember the name, but it is a different area then the first missionary family), who is also there helping. It might not be reported but Christians there are being helped.

I don't know what to say about the "appearance" of non-support to help the Catholics who are being persecute but Christian persecutions will not be on mainstream tv, so the majority of the Christians, will not know what is going on. But just so you know, help is there. There is definitely a need for more workers.

I'm glad to know such support is out there, splendid news for those fleeing from harm. I am confused as to why they are carrying out mission work on these populations though, but I am still thankful for their help.

 

[daydreamergurl15]

I'm glad to know such support is out there, splendid news for those fleeing from harm. I am confused as to why they are carrying out mission work on these populations though, but I am still thankful for their help.

What do you mean? They are spreading the good news and help protecting the brothers and sisters in Christ.

 

[GoingByzantine]

What do you mean? They are spreading the good news and help protecting the brothers and sisters in Christ.

Why spread the good news to those who are already Christians?

 

[daydreamergurl15]

Why spread the good news to those who are already Christians?

I think you misunderstand. They are spreading it to those who don't know Christ.

 

[GoingByzantine]

I think you misunderstand. They are spreading it to those who don't know Christ.

Ah I see, so to Muslims fleeing the region?

 

[Nik0s]

Don't forget that persecution of Christians is going on everywhere in the Middle east, not just in Iraq. Even in Israel, the so called "Secular democracy" Haredi ultra Orthodox Jews are spitting on Christian clergy.
http://www.haaretz.com/news/nationa...on-old-city-clergymen-becoming-daily-1.393669

...When Narek Garabedian came to Israel to study in the Armenian Seminary in Jerusalem half a year ago, he did not expect the insults, curses and spitting he would be subjected to daily by ultra-Orthodox Jews in the streets of the Old City.
"When I see an ultra-Orthodox man coming toward me in the street, I always ask myself if he will spit at me," says Narek, a Canadian Armenian, this week. About a month ago, on his way to buy groceries in the Old City, two ultra-Orthodox men spat at him. The spittle did not fall at his feet but on his person. Narek, a former football player, decided this time not to turn the other cheek.
"I was very angry. I pushed them both to the wall and asked, 'why are you doing this?' They were frightened and said 'we're sorry, we're sorry,' so I let them go. But it isn't always like that. Sometimes the spitter attacks you back," he says.
Other clergymen in the Armenian Church in Jerusalem say they are all victims of harassment, from the senior cardinals to the priesthood students. Mostly they ignore these incidents. When they do complain, the police don't usually find the perpetrators.
Martarsian left Israel about a year ago. He was sent back home by the church, as were two other Armenian priesthood students who were charged after attacking an ultra-Orthodox man who spat at them.
The Greek Patriarchy's clergymen have been cursed and spat on by ultra-Orthodox men in the street for many years. "They walk past me and spit," says Father Gabriel Bador, 78, a senior priest in the Greek Orthodox Patriarchate. "Mostly I ignore it, but it's difficult.
Sometimes I stop and ask the spitter 'why are you doing this? What have I done to you?' Once I even shouted at a few of them who spat at my feet together. They ran away," he says.
"It happens a lot," says Archbishop Aristarchos, the chief secretary of the patriarchate. "You walk down the street and suddenly they spit at you for no reason. I admit sometimes it makes me furious, but we have been taught to restrain ourselves, so I do so."....

 

[~Anastasia~]

That is a good question.

I can't even remember! Hymns randomly come into my head throughout the day. I know I had my headphones on, she could hear arabic coming out of them, as I was humming to myself. Then she snapped, it was truly bizarre, to her a Christian shouldn't listen to something in Arabic...it is "offensive" somehow.

Of course my roommate had my back over hers, he knows how devout I am, and he knows I have exotic taste when it comes to Christian music.

Well, since I don't know Arabic, the words wouldn't help anyway. If she did not know Arabic either, then that kind of explains the situation a little. I'm guessing it wasn't the words, but just the fact then that you were listening to something in Arabic?

Yes, it sounds bizarre. I was trying to understand, but it sounds as though it didn't really make much sense at all anyway.

Glad to hear your roommate stood up for you.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

One of the biggest issues in the modern Western World is that we are ignorant of Geography, especially (U.S.) Americans. I have asked groups of 5-6th graders to tell me what neighboring states border our own, none had a clue...even their teachers in a couple instance did not know.

I think a lot of the problems we end up having with Georgaphy is that even what is seen is done within the mindset of a skewed vision - the maps themselves leading to A LOT of problems when it comes to identity. For example, I used to think it was just a problem that Americans in high school were not being taught global history and seeing differing territories outside of the U.S......that is a basic problem that makes a big difference. However, what I came to realize later on was that even the visual imagery of territories and the people present was not truly accurate.

I did not realize, until studying maps and history, that the Hebrew experience (as well as the Arab experience) was not simply in the Near/Middle East - it was also within the African context (i.e. Egypt, Cush, etc.) and many within the Middle East and Africa have often gotten very bothered when people assume that the Hebrews were not predominately dark-skinned or that Arabs are automatically light-skinned. Especially as it concerns African Jews (i.e. Nigerian Jews, Ethiopian Jews, Jews in Morraco, etc.) or those who are Black Iraqis, Yemenites of dark coloration ...you get the picture.

With the Black Iraqis, many are bothered that so many are concerned for the Christians in Iraq who are being harmed and yet not much was said on their own situation - "Discrimination exists in our community, but sometimes it is hard to notice because everyone is Muslim," one individual notes...says. Yet she insists, "it is not as deep as in communities outside of Iraq," - more shared in Our involvement in Iraq ignores an appalling anti-black record | theGrio

• Will Iraqi Blacks Win Justice? - NYTimes.com

• Black Iraqis In Basra Face Racism : NPR

• Back to Africa, From Iraq - Los Angeles Times

Black Iraqis - Yep no Joke - Natives - YouTube

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As said elsewhere, I was sadden to know what happened with the killing Black Iraqi rights activist Jalal Thiyab. But thankful for the work that was preceding him as well - the Movement of Free Iraqis..

And in light of what's occurring with the ISIS crisis in Iraq, praying for none of the gains that have occurred to be lost in all of the mess that has gone down.

As it concerns the issue of maps and how much that has shifted the very image of what comes to people's mind when we think of the Middle East - often dismissing those who are Middle Eastern simply because of how they don't "look" Middle Eastern in the way the stereotype demands - there was more discussed elsewhere on the matter (as seenhere and here). As said there:

Greetings!

I was having a good discussion with one of my old friends on the subject of how maps can make such a difference in the way we see the world - and he was noting this to me in light of how often it seemed that people were prone to make claims of him as being crazy whenever he'd note that Middle Eastern culture was directly connected to and reflective of African culture - in light of how often people have said that those who are Black are not really present within the scriptures or current events as much as others who are Arab or Semitic like the Jews.

For him, it was a big deal when it comes to Eurocentric views that seem to influence how others read the Bible (including with present day events when it comes to seeing the ways Europe intervened in the are of the Middle-East to create the territories largely during colonialism and shape a lot of problems known currently) - and when I noted to him the beauty of Eastern Christianity in its connection to the African context (Egypt, Libya, etc.), he pointed out to me that it needed to be said that the Middle East used to be called North Eastern Africa - with the "Middle East" term coming on later to divide and lead to a lot of other issues that never were present before when those nations in the current "Middle East" were considered African nations.......for the term "Middle East" was given when American naval strategist Alfred Thayer Mahan first invoked the term “the Middle East” in 1902 as he was seeking a geographically-defined label to mark the strategic value of the region around the Persian Gulf.


For more,

• The Deception concerning Northeast Africa. - Assata Shakur
• The Middle East or Northeastern Africa? « Natural Culture Natural ...
• London and the Invention of the Middle East: Money, Power, ... - Page 2
• London and the Invention of the Middle East: Money, Power, and War, 1902-1922...
• Is There a Middle East?: The Evolution of a Geopolitical Concept

North East Africa - The Hidden Truth Documentary Trailer ​

Maps make a world of difference when it comes to the ways that territory can shift the way you see things and impact the policies you end up creating afterward...as is the case when people groups are divorced from areas due to saying they (visually) were never connected there - leading to the media, history books and many other factors impacting the emphasis people may give you on certain topics or leading to a lack of addressment on why certain groups are left out of the picture whenever discussions occur.

I had to stop and note (although I had disagreements) where I could understand where he was coming from - for it has always seemed odd to me whenever others don't acknowledge....Since Egypt is located in North-East Africa, why is it that Egyptians are considered Middle Easterners and not Africans? And the same goes for other issues....as it concerns the ways that Africa has impacted everything from trade to customs in the Middle-East areas for centuries...even though it seems denied. Had a similar dialogue with another when we were talking about the situation with King Solomon in 1 Kings 10/2 Chronicles 9 with his meeting with the Queen of Sheba - as I've heard many say, counter to what Ethiopian Orthodox Christians claim, that Sheba was from the country of Yemen rather than from Ethiopia.....and although I can see how that would logically make sense, it was always fascinating that part of the underlying reason behind why others didn't want Sheba to be from Ethiopia was because there was more focus in saying it was a Middle-Eastern country she hailed from rather than an African one.....and I say that in light of how often people say claiming Sheba ( Genesis 10:6-8 , Genesis 25:2-4 , 1 Chronicles 1:8-10 ) as an Ethiopian narrative is simply an Afro-Centric viewpoint without basis - even though it seems difficult to get past the point that people seem slow to accept that even Yemen was once considered PART of Africa itself - with the imagery not lost on those in Early History when it came to seeing Arabs/Africans connected and the impact of a great African Queen coming to Solomon for wisdom.............................

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This is a very interesting topic. I agree with what you've stated about maps affecting the way people see things. Studying people groups without maps isn't a very effective way of studying, in my opinion. The Middle East as North Eastern Africa makes a lot of sense. I like what you had to say about being visually affected, as well. When the word "Jew" is spoken, an image follows. Images repeatedly associated with a word through media can affect our association with the word. The images associated with "Israel"/"Jew" are so diverse, however, mainstream media does not do justice to the diversity.

"no other lands are as important as the real estate which lay between the Blue and White Niles of Egypt and the Euphrates river of Iraq" (quoted from The Middle East or Northeastern Africa? « Natural Culture Natural Culture)

When the above is viewed on a map, it does not only contain the sliver of land known as Israel today, but Yemen, Oman and everything in between, as well as parts of countries to the east of the Nile River. It is interesting to look at on a map, because there are many people groups in these areas who have a Torah tradition, a tradition of being "sons of Israel", or folklore of ties with ancient characters of the Bible, such as Solomon, as previously mentioned.

Those are things I wish were considered....and yet for many Evangelicals or Christians cheering on those who are persecuted Christians in the Middle East, I still find it highly sad that those who are people of color are not really recognized.

Americans I know have a tendency of seeing the Middle East as one big f'ed up place filled with Christian hating Islamist extremists. Once I was humming a Melkite hymn to myself as I worked, a friend of my roommate was also in the room and she flipped out at me. She said I was "making fun of Muslims," and I tried to explain Eastern Christianity to her and she thought I was full of it. She called me a racist and ran out of our room. This incident shows how ignorant the masses can be of Geography.

Sad but true - it is unfortunately the case that many Americans see the Middle East as something to hate entirely. A lot of this is due to cultural ignorance of what Middle Eastern history is about and the many ways that it has always interconnected with the West. They don't even know what the East is about as well...

And they don't even know what American culture is about and how others who are Muslim or Eastern Christian have operated here in the U.S. Some don't even realize they have the same struggles as other Americans do.

In example, I'm reminded of how Muslim spoken word poet Madiha Bhatti spoke powerfully on the ways that MEDIA/music entertainment culture dehumanizes women all the time.....and I was so glad that she noted how she didn’t like the objectifying lyrics she heard in contemporary music. There are so many snap-worthy moments in this, our fingers hurt.

For reference:

• Groundswell | Multifaith Movement for Justice |

Mu(sick) - YouTube

 

[GoingByzantine]

Gxg, what you say is truth. I am too tired to respond in depth, but maps can be used to distort reality, my Carthography mentor has told me as much. In fact, Cartographers are trained to mislead people for a living to get their POV across. (I am one.)

Political Geography 101 is this idea of "The State", and the "The State" often controls the view of those that follow it. People are conditioned to look at the outside world according to "the state" that they are apart of. Often these ideas are based in a state vs. state mentality, that ignores lesser nations of people in a region. When George Bush invaded Iraq, he ignored the racial and religious tensions in the region. His invasion led to the current situation there, basically an ethnic civil war.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I have a question for you, do you know what I am going through? Do you know what my congregation is going through? What about all the Christians in my state? What about all of us on the General Theology board? Did you ever stop to ask? For me, the answer is no. And it is not possible to know unless you have come across that.

No, it is not possible to know what 2.3 billion people are going through. Some of us, are working in our local areas around us because we can do more work around here. Many pray everyday for the saints--Christians. But if you know feel strongly about those who are being persecuted in the Middle East, find a way to help.

Some Christians know what is happening in your meeting and some know what's happening with you and that was my point; there are 2.3 billion of us and collectively we know heaps.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Gxg, what you say is truth. I am too tired to respond in depth, but maps can be used to distort reality, my Carthography mentor has told me as much. In fact, Cartographers are trained to mislead people for a living to get their POV across. (I am one.)
.

Indeed - and on the issue of what has happened with the the Middle East crisis when others who are Middle-Eastern are told they are not and segregated from others in hot-spot areas - or whenever you even have to entertain questions such as "Does Egypt belong to Middle East or Africa?" when it comes to the subject of identity (and the same in regards to Libya, which is another good example of this - on the continent of Africa but considered part of the Middle East), you realize how Carthography has everything to do with it.

That is the only way you can separate the struggles others have been experiencing within the African continent (including acts of terrorism and displacement like what has happened in Iraq ..Somalia coming to mind) - struggles others in those areas see as a "Middle Eastern struggle" IN(like the Christian militias coming against others as early as Februrary or the Nigeria's Boko Haram Islamists in light of Northern Nigerian Culture and other Islamist terror groups in Africa)- and then and ignore where that has occurred while only focusing on what has happened in the area deemed to be the Middle East despite how there is extensive historical references showing an African origin of Islam and Islamic culture spreading across Africa (as noted best in Black Arabia: Black Arabia and the African Origin of Islam: Select Bibliography ). It's no small issue to forget cartography when it comes to the global African prescence.. (as Dr. Runoko Rashidi has said best ), noted best in Black Arabia (Kusha Dwipa) and the African Origin of Islam (more here). No one considers the many migrants who have fled from places being African in appearance because they have been trained to see Middle Eastern as looking one way - not a lot know of others like Abu Kurke Kebato, in his early 20s, who was one of only nine survivors in a boat carrying 72, which had left Libya, only to languish at sea for two weeks before drifting back to Libyan shores (more here in https://voiceofthepersecuted.wordpr...tians-risk-lives-to-flee-war-and-persecution/ ).


If you change the borders and boundaries of an area, you change the perceptions others have toward it.

And as it concerns the visual, I am still in shock over how ironic it is that Christians would raise alarms over the harm being done to Iraqi Christians (a big deal) and yet remain silent for years over the mistreatment of Black Iraqis that has happened for a long time. It's as if they were not worth being acknowledged. “These people have been facing discrimination since the very day their ancestors were brought from Africa to build canals and to turn marshlands into fields for cotton and other crops,” says Saad Salloum, editor of Masarat, a magazine focused on the minorities issue in Iraq. Salloum went on to note that “Unlike the Christians, the Bahai or other religious minorities, the Iraqi blacks haven’t suffered prosecution because of their faith. On the other hand, they don’t enjoy recognition as an Iraqi minority as that is still based on religious grounds.”

If Christians are concerned with the ways others are mistreated in Iraq, I would think they'd also be concerned with the ways others (like the Black Iraqis present for centuries) have been called "slaves" and have had their history in Iraq marked by a tradition of discrimination. I would hope they would also join in protest against prejudicial treatment, economic marginalization and a high unemployment rate.

Arab Racism against Black People in Iraq - YouTube

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Iraq is suffering its own version of what Blacks went through in the North when it came to economic discrimination within the U.S (after the Reconstruction) and harm of other kinds - and throughout the U.S occupation of Iraq and our going back into Iraq with the ISIS crisis, there has been silence.

But it seems that was all allowable by others in the West since it is is a "Black" concern...and thus, there was not concern for Iraq again until the ISIS started killing others. If nothing else, there should have been concern when Jalal Thiyab was gunned down - hindering the Civil Rights movement in Iraq. His murder occurred against a backdrop of increasing sectarian violence in Iraq. from April 2013 - with the civil war in neighbouring Syria placing an extra strain on the fragile relations between Sunni and Shi'a Muslims in the country and the death toll in Iraq being high.

As described of him elsewhere:

______"The 2003 U.S. intervention in Iraq inspired Thijeel to start a movement to build racial unity. He founded “The Supporters of Human Freedom in Basra,” an advocacy that won him the label, “Iraq’s Martin Luther King.” But sadly enough, like MLK, Thijeel was gunned down a year ago in Basra. The case was never fully investigated. Thijeel was murdered as he left a classroom where a picture of Barack Obama hung on the wall. Meanwhile, Iraq has failed to enact its first anti-discrimination law or address its decades long racial problem at all. Slavery was abolished in Iraq in 1920, and with the challenges facing Iraq’s political crisis, the focus on racism aimed at blacks in that country appears to be far off.

Salloum reports in The Times, “Since Thijeel’s assassination, Iraq’s blacks have slunk back into the shadows.” In Basra, he says, “Blacks have resumed their identification as Shiites or Sunnis. Even Jalal’s [Thijeel’s] family refuses to speak out about what happened to him. They mourn him in private.”____________

As impactful and significant as he was, when he died, you didn't hear a word from the West (or Western Christians involved in advocating for persecuted minorities in Iraq) say anything. With the Iraqi Christians, their silence seemed to indicate how much of the problems goes back to how we see nationalism - including nationalism from the perspective of the Iraqi Christians since it doesn't seem that even they either spoke on it or were concerned.

That seems off to me. Actually, to be truthful, it really does bother me a good bi t that you didn't see any Christians speak on the issue of what Jalal noted as a crisis - and yet with the Diaspora of Christians in Iraq and the ISIS, people have taken to protesting and making it a priority to speak out. It gives the impression that one dire struggle is less important than another when suffering is suffering..

That just seems off, IMHO.

Political Geography 101 is this idea of "The State", and the "The State" often controls the view of those that follow it. People are conditioned to look at the outside world according to "the state" that they are apart of. Often these ideas are based in a state vs. state mentality, that ignores lesser nations of people in a region. When George Bush invaded Iraq, he ignored the racial and religious tensions in the region. His invasion led to the current situation there, basically an ethnic civil war

Very true - and as it concerns the issue of state vs. state, there's also the dynamic of nationalism that impacts how others see others. Bush ignored a lot when he went into the situation by ignoring the religious and racial tensions - but too many blame Bush and ignore where the public in the U.S was ignorant of what happened there and continued to assume that there were not divisions already present there. They continued with a lot of the stereotypes and thus Bush could do as he did..

And the minority groups within Iraq are so varied that people cannot afford to not know the differing sides of the conflict. For more, one can investigate Minorities | Masarat

 

[Gxg (G²)]

The surrounding areas, ie:Kurdistan have had so much persecution directed against them that have driven them into an almost exiled/fugitive condition. For those fleeing as Christians they would be forced to go to those who are the enemy of the enemy I would imagine. And as pointed out bringing with them their own politics. The Kurds in particular may think of them as a western religion and the west was where their problems began because of giving power to the taliban to start with against the Russians. Which had left them in the middle of the conflict geographically I believe (I'm just going on an account of what a Kurd friend told me and I probably have some details wrong)

Very excellent points as it concerns the ways that others may ended up stepping into a situation they didn't really want to be in but that seemed wise at the time...only for it to harm them later on. The nationalism present with groups that are fleeing persecution and the ways that other groups later persecute those who fled to them on the basis of their own nationalism...that cannot be ignored.

What I mean to say is that this is just another in a long line of persections on various peoples, not just religions in the middle east area.

I believe that God holds us to an allegiance with His people, our brothers and sisters, no matter the nationality. Prayer that politics will not interfer with communion. God is bringing about another turning point in human history of that I am assured that He is in control in this gruesome situation also.

More than understand where you're coming from and agree..

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Don't forget that persecution of Christians is going on everywhere in the Middle east, not just in Iraq. Even in Israel, the so called "Secular democracy" Haredi ultra Orthodox Jews are spitting on Christian clergy.
Ultra-Orthodox spitting attacks on Old City clergymen becoming daily Israel News | Haaretz

That is old news but appropriate for today.

Israel would like just 1 religion in Israel, apostate Judaism.
Much like apostate Islam wants only 1 religion in their countries.

Ultra-Orthodox spitting attacks on Old City clergymen becoming daily

Clergymen in the Armenian Church in Jerusalem say they are victims of harassment, from senior cardinals to priesthood students; when they do complain, the police don't usually find the perpetrators.

By Oz Rosenberg | Nov. 4, 2011 | 7:50 AM |

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[daydreamergurl15]

Some Christians know what is happening in your meeting and some know what's happening with you and that was my point; there are 2.3 billion of us and collectively we know heaps.

That's exactly what my first response was getting at.

 

[GoingByzantine]

Good reading in your last post there Gxg, the plight of "Black" Iraqis is one htat is completely ignored by the outside world. It is also one that could be easily overlooked when maps are made showing things such as Sunni and Shia but not underlying racial connotations as well.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Good reading in your last post there Gxg, the plight of "Black" Iraqis is one htat is completely ignored by the outside world. It is also one that could be easily overlooked when maps are made showing things such as Sunni and Shia but not underlying racial connotations as well.

I think the issue would go a bit deeper than examining what is seen on the maps with showing Muslim sects and ignoring racial contexts. It also goes to assuming that all members of Christian minority groups on a map are automatically of a positive mindset with regards to other minorities - for just because a group of minorities are persecuted doesn't mean they support other minorities in their struggles or suffering since the focus on what you're going through may dominate all other concerns.

This is definitely the case with the Black Iraqis and how they have been seemingly ignored, as far as I am aware, by the Iraqi Christians for years - indicating that there is a level of racism (at the least) or neglect in ignorance (at the least) even among the Christians who've been persecuted and thus they should not be elevated entirely as being either without any faults or any need for serious reform.

 

[SolomonVII]

France has offered refugee status to all Iraqi Christians.

 

[~Anastasia~]

France has offered refugee status to all Iraqi Christians.

That's wonderful to hear!