The impossible ethic

Boidae

Senior Veteran
Aug 18, 2010
4,920
420
Central Florida
✟21,015.00
Country
United States
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Divorced
Politics
US-Others
I think Steve Martin sums up my problem very well. Even if I try to obey and get rid of everything, I would start accumulating new stuff immediately. It is foolish to try when you know beyond a shadow of a doubt that you will fail.

The Jerk (10/10) Movie CLIP - That's All I Need! (1979) HD - YouTube

My wife and I do not own much and much of what we do have was given to us. Our only material debt is our car for which we are making payments on. We needed a newer vehicle this year since our two cars were 19 years old and were starting to fall apart. With my wife having one doctor appointment or another at least once a week and not living near a mass transit stop, a car is a necessity. Not to mention my photography assignments and pet sitting which pays my child support each month required a vehicle that was great on gas.

I was given my PS3 by my step-dad when I had gone in for hand surgery as a get well gift. Our TV we saved up for back in 2011 and besides the car is the most expensive thing we own. My computer is from 2008 and is from a tax refund.

We are not out to accumulate stuff as we don't have multiples of things. I am content in where we are at and other than this possible house from Habitat for Humanity, we don't even on plan accumulating more debt. With the house it will get us out of a bad neighborhood where we do not feel safe. The have been gunshots here, murder, a meth lab and other criminal activity. Even the woman at Habitat for Humanity knew of our apartment complex because her daughter had a I-phone stolen and when they used the locater app, it lead them to this complex. Cops are here just about every other day. We had our windshield chipped and cracked by someone here. This house if it happens will be a blessing and prayers answered.

We see everything that we have as a blessing from God since all things are his anyway.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: psalms 91
Upvote 0

Angelquill

Bard of Angels
Jul 20, 2014
2,140
114
Following a Jewish carpenter...
✟2,838.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Interesting. Can you explain a bit more about this conviction? What does it feel like and what is likely to trigger it? What are some of the ways that people respond to conviction, whether good or bad?

I could try to explain to you what lasagna tastes like...or what a lilac smells like...or what it feels like when my little grandson hugs me.
I could try, but I don't think it would do much good.
It would be easier to make you a pan of lasagna, or to give you a lilac to smell, or to introduce you to my little grandson, who hugs everyone... However, only God can convict you in your heart. You will know if He does...

I seriously doubt that Michael or anyone else could tell you what that conviction in our hearts feels like...it is intensely personal, or what might trigger it, or how people respond to it, if they do. These are things that you simply have to experience yourself, like tasting lasagna, or the scent of lilacs, or the feel of a child's hug...
 
  • Like
Reactions: psalms 91
Upvote 0

BryanW92

Hey look, it's a squirrel!
May 11, 2012
3,571
757
NE Florida
✟15,351.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
We see everything that we have as a blessing from God since all things are his anyway.

You're fortunate. I was blessed with health and a successful career as an industrial electrician, so I enjoy a solid middle class lifestyle. No McMansions or fancy cars, but we are comfortable and secure.

I guess I received my reward on earth instead of in heaven.
 
  • Like
Reactions: psalms 91
Upvote 0

Boidae

Senior Veteran
Aug 18, 2010
4,920
420
Central Florida
✟21,015.00
Country
United States
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Divorced
Politics
US-Others
You're fortunate. I was blessed with health and a successful career as an industrial electrician, so I enjoy a solid middle class lifestyle. No McMansions or fancy cars, but we are comfortable and secure.

I guess I received my reward on earth instead of in heaven.

Bryan, you will not only be rewarded here on Earth, but in Heaven for your good works done through faith in Him.

While I do not believe in the prosperity gospel, I do believe and have faith in God wanting to give us good things if we ask (and sometimes we do not need to ask) because of His love for us.

Read Matthew chapter 7 verse 11 to see what I mean.
 
  • Like
Reactions: psalms 91
Upvote 0

Aldebaran

NCC-1701-A
Christian Forums Staff
Purple Team - Moderator
Supporter
Oct 17, 2009
38,654
12,107
Wisconsin, United States of America
✟622,977.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
How can we say we love God if we refuse to follow his teachings?


How can we say we have a relationship with him if we refuse to follow his teachings?


You only seem to bring up "the law" and "following a book" when it comes to teachings which you personally disagree with.

You keep talking about "following his teachings", but you don't say anything about "knowing him" or "loving him". Now, before you write a knee-jerk response of "How can we say we know and love him if we don't follow his teachings?", you need to first consider that a person knows and loves first. We have to be born again into God's kingdom to be able to do this. Simply following teachings like it's a rule book doesn't give us life.
 
  • Like
Reactions: psalms 91
Upvote 0

BryanW92

Hey look, it's a squirrel!
May 11, 2012
3,571
757
NE Florida
✟15,351.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
While I do not believe in the prosperity gospel, I do believe and have faith in God wanting to give us good things if we ask (and sometimes we do not need to ask) because of His love for us.

That's the thing. I didn't ask for anything I have. I learned a set of skills and knowledge and have worked with them for 34 years. For more than 20 of those years, I was an atheist and was doing great.

In the meantime, you have your situation and I'm sure that you didn't ask for that either.

So God doled out prosperity to me and gunfire and broken car windows to you. On one of the Jesus Christian web sites, there is an article (that has been plagiarized in posts here recently) that asks why people will face a gun or fight a fire with courage, but the fear of poverty cripples them. I wouldn't willingly swap homes with you, so that means that I am the one who has to walk away from Jesus with sadness.

Since becoming a Christian, I have literally given enough money to the church to pay off my house, yet it is meaningless because of the money I kept (and the house itself). Are the churches that teach grace and faith intentionally misleading the people because the truth that anything less than 100% is worthless is too much for people to handle?
 
  • Like
Reactions: psalms 91
Upvote 0

Alithis

Disciple of Jesus .
Nov 11, 2010
15,750
2,180
Mobile
✟94,492.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I could try to explain to you what lasagna tastes like...or what a lilac smells like...or what it feels like when my little grandson hugs me.
I could try, but I don't think it would do much good.
It would be easier to make you a pan of lasagna, or to give you a lilac to smell, or to introduce you to my little grandson, who hugs everyone... However, only God can convict you in your heart. You will know if He does...

I seriously doubt that Michael or anyone else could tell you what that conviction in our hearts feels like...it is intensely personal, or what might trigger it, or how people respond to it, if they do. These are things that you simply have to experience yourself, like tasting lasagna, or the scent of lilacs, or the feel of a child's hug...
right you are :thumbsup:
 
  • Like
Reactions: psalms 91
Upvote 0

Alithis

Disciple of Jesus .
Nov 11, 2010
15,750
2,180
Mobile
✟94,492.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
That's the thing. I didn't ask for anything I have. I learned a set of skills and knowledge and have worked with them for 34 years. For more than 20 of those years, I was an atheist and was doing great.

In the meantime, you have your situation and I'm sure that you didn't ask for that either.

So God doled out prosperity to me and gunfire and broken car windows to you. On one of the Jesus Christian web sites, there is an article (that has been plagiarized in posts here recently) that asks why people will face a gun or fight a fire with courage, but the fear of poverty cripples them. I wouldn't willingly swap homes with you, so that means that I am the one who has to walk away from Jesus with sadness.

Since becoming a Christian, I have literally given enough money to the church to pay off my house, yet it is meaningless because of the money I kept (and the house itself). Are the churches that teach grace and faith intentionally misleading the people because the truth that anything less than 100% is worthless is too much for people to handle?

I think perhaps it has a lot to do with what we consider to be :GOOD THINGS lol ..

I have recently recovered from a most unpleasant stomach ailment ... im healed praise God ..
so for me .. "that is a good and prosperous thing .

I said to my wife a week ago .. if you were only able to ask God for one single thing for yourself (in this life -ie other then salvation etc)
what would it be... for me it would be "good health " while upon this earth .That to me is a "good THING " lol .other things are meaningless without it ,..for me :)
 
  • Like
Reactions: psalms 91
Upvote 0

Aldebaran

NCC-1701-A
Christian Forums Staff
Purple Team - Moderator
Supporter
Oct 17, 2009
38,654
12,107
Wisconsin, United States of America
✟622,977.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
I think perhaps it has a lot to do with what we consider to be :GOOD THINGS lol ..

I have recently recovered from a most unpleasant stomach ailment ... im healed praise God ..
so for me .. "that is a good and prosperous thing .

I said to my wife a week ago .. if you were only able to ask God for one single thing for yourself (in this life -ie other then salvation etc)
what would it be... for me it would be "good health " while upon this earth .That to me is a "good THING " lol .other things are meaningless without it ,..for me :)

I've always felt the same way after getting over an illness. There's nothing quite like getting sick or injured to make us appreciate how important our health is.

Michael--Glad to hear you're feeling better!
 
  • Like
Reactions: psalms 91
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Alithis

Disciple of Jesus .
Nov 11, 2010
15,750
2,180
Mobile
✟94,492.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
It's funny that you should mention tummy troubles...my little grand daughter passed her stomach virus to me (again), and it is taking hold of me as we speak.
:|Ugh!!!:|


ouhh no, God bless you and bring you swift recovery :groupray:
 
  • Like
Reactions: psalms 91
Upvote 0

Norah63

Newbie
Jun 29, 2011
4,225
430
everlasting hills
✟14,569.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
When I see this thread has migrated to the top again I check it out. Reminds me of the Martha and Mary scripture. Martha was complaining to the Lord, about what she didn't see Mary doing. Did she think it was the Lord's fault that Mary wasn't in the kitchen with her? who knows. Yet the Lord said that Mary has chosen the better part. Yet we worry over who is doing what in what manner for our dear Lord Jesus. Some give up money while not having the power gifts in use. Others have a good worship experience and love there fellowman as best they know how. Oh I know we all do our best at this.
Anyway that scripture just came to mind this morning about this thread.....
 
  • Like
Reactions: psalms 91
Upvote 0

Rubiks

proud libtard
Aug 14, 2012
4,293
2,259
United States
✟137,866.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
I think God has been convicting me for a long time regarding these verses. I've decided its best for me to give up most of my possessions except for some bare essentials we need, like food and clothing, some blankets, and some extra money. I personally would find it joyful to share all I have and live communally within a Christian community. I personally don't think the "Sell all" applies to everyone the same way, nor do I think Jesus wants us to live an ascetic lifestyle. For the 12 apostles it was largely a one time deal in order to spread the word. In Acts, the only example is in Acts 2 & 4, yet they still kept things like houses. Many disciples later in the book of Acts still owned houses. Even Jesus was a carpenter before his ministry. Paul was a tent maker for the rest of his life. God knows material things are a regular part of life. Paul even says in 1 Timothy that every created by God is good and is meant to be enjoyed. I'm not exactly sure the point Jesus is making here, so I'm not sure where exactly to go with it, but that's fine. As long as you make effort towards your honest interpretation, I believe that is repentance in God's eyes. We are justified by seeing ourselves as a terribly broken sinner, and trusting in Jesus' sacrifice to bridge the gap. God ensures all who do that will gravitate towards godliness.

Praise God, for he is glorious!
 
  • Like
Reactions: psalms 91
Upvote 0

tremble

^.^/
Feb 15, 2014
685
216
✟16,927.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Hi rubiks. Thanks for sharing this. I found it to be an encouraging post.

I personally would find it joyful to share all I have and live communally within a Christian community.

It only takes 2 to have a Christian community. Do you have any friends or family who would be willing to experiment with you on these teachings?

I personally don't think the "Sell all" applies to everyone the same way, nor do I think Jesus wants us to live an ascetic lifestyle. For the 12 apostles it was largely a one time deal in order to spread the word.

I think it's helpful to understand the reason for the sell all/ forsake all teaching. For example, look at your explanation about the 12 disciples doing it to spread the word. Is the same true for us today? If it worked for them then it should work for us, too. After all, Jesus told them to teach to others the same teachings he gave to them.

In Acts, the only example is in Acts 2 & 4, yet they still kept things like houses.

Okay, so Jesus did it, and all the disciples did it and it's mentioned twice in acts where thousands of people did it. How many different examples do we need before we will understand it to be an important value of the Kingdom of heaven?

Even Jesus was a carpenter before his ministry

There is a difference between being learning carpentry and using carpentry to make money. We don't even know for sure that Jesus was a carpenter. Many people assume this because he grew up in a household where the the head of the house was a carpenter.

But, even if he did use carpentry to make money that was before his ministry started, as you've suggested in your post. That time is long gone.

Paul was a tent maker for the rest of his life.

For the rest of his life? There is only one reference in all of the Bible about Paul making tents. You can find it in Acts 18:1-5. The context is that Paul was travelling alone at the time when he arrived in Corinth. He had more problems with this church than he did with any of the other churches he visited.

He was worried about the Corinthians becoming confused over giving him food and shelter. He didn't want anything to distract them away from what he was teaching and accepting their material goods was likely to do that. So, he decided that he would try to provide for himself by making tents rather than put himself in a compromising situation by depending on the charity of a church he was having difficulty with at the time.

A couple verses later, Timothy and Silas show up and the text says Paul was "pricked in his conscience" or "pressed in the spirit" and then gave his whole time to preaching the gospel. He later writes to the church at Corinth and says, "The only way I treated you differently from any other church was that I didn't rely on you to support me. Forgive me this wrong." (2 Cor 12:13 )

He realized that he should not have let his concern about material provision from the Corinthians stop him from dealing with them as he would any of the other churches.

God knows material things are a regular part of life.

Which is why he never said it is wrong to use (or even to enjoy) material things. The lesson is about our attitudes towards these material goods. We were not created to work for stuff; not even basic stuff like food and clothing. We are created to work for love. God will provide the things we need but we will never be able to see that until we stop acting in fear.

As long as you make effort towards your honest interpretation, I believe that is repentance in God's eyes.

I think God knows better than anyone just how imperfect we are when it comes to our efforts to serve him and I like that you've talked about making effort. I think that's what God wants to see, too. He knows we won't get it exactly right the first time, or the second time or the millionth time, but he wants to see that we will keep trying and trying and trying to move closer to values.

Praise God, for he is glorious!

Amen. ^.^
 
  • Like
Reactions: psalms 91
Upvote 0

tremble

^.^/
Feb 15, 2014
685
216
✟16,927.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Even if I try to obey and get rid of everything, I would start accumulating new stuff immediately. It is foolish to try when you know beyond a shadow of a doubt that you will fail.

Hi Bryan. I think you've misunderstood the lesson. This isn't a rule against using material goods. It's a lesson about confronting materialism. It's not a command to forsake any use of material goods, but to forsake private ownership in favour of sharing what we have with others.

So you have a group of Christians who have decided to share all things in common. If they need a car, they should use a car. If they need a computer, they should use a computer. If they need a place to stay, they should find shelter, etc.

But no one person can say, "this is mine and I can do whatever I want with it". Decisions are made as a group about what is needed, how to spend group funds, or how to use group resources.

If you can't change or won't change, then a partial change is a waste of your time and God's.

I don't want to assume that I know what you mean. Can you give a practical example of someone who can't change?

And can you give a practical example of someone who won't change?

And can you give a practical example of someone who is willing to change?

So, the bottom line is that if we can't succeed, it is best that we don't try.

I don't think you can produce any evidence that this is consistent with what God wants from us. Have you ever read the first 3 chapters of the Revelation? Those chapters contain letters to 7 churches. What I find most inspiring is that at the end of each church letter, there is an encouragement from Jesus about how he will reward those who overcome. He says much the same thing on a few occasions in the gospels, specifically using the word "overcome".

God understands that we will fail in our attempts to grow closer to him. That's where grace comes in. We have a reason to keep trying because we know that God is willing to forgive us when we fail.

I recently left the United Methodist Church and have been searching for a new church home, but nothing appeals to me.

You only need at least 1 other christian to have a church. Start simple with anyone you can find who's shares your ideals and grow from there. Don't give up.


The rich, young ruler walked away sad. But, since he was never getting into the kingdom anyway no matter how hard he tried, he probably had a good life once he got past the rejection by Jesus. His example is probably the best one for most of us who can't completely follow the teachings of Jesus (narrow path vs broad path and all that stuff).

The rich man could have been a part of the kingdom, but he decided that his stuff was more important. We all deal with those kind of decisions every day. It's why Jesus said, "what does it profit to gain the whole world, yet lose your soul"?

On the other hand, we don't know that he didn't later feel convicted and repent. The record isn't there for us to judge his salvation, but rather to illustrate the lesson of how NOT to respond when Jesus calls.d
 
  • Like
Reactions: psalms 91
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Aldebaran

NCC-1701-A
Christian Forums Staff
Purple Team - Moderator
Supporter
Oct 17, 2009
38,654
12,107
Wisconsin, United States of America
✟622,977.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
Hi Bryan. I think you've misunderstood the lesson. This isn't a rule against using material goods. It's a lesson about confronting materialism. It's not a command to forsake any use of material goods, but to forsake private ownership in favour of sharing what we have with others.

So you have a group of Christians who have decided to share all things in common. If they need a car, they should use a car. If they need a computer, they should use a computer. If they need a place to stay, they should find shelter, etc.

But no one person can say, "this is mine and I can do whatever I want with it". Decisions are made as a group about what is needed, how to spend group funds, or how to use group resources.

Ok, so it sounds like you're saying that Christians are supposed to live in a commune-type of living arrangement. Why didn't you tell us this before?

I don't think you can produce any evidence that this is consistent with what God wants from us. Have you ever read the first 3 chapters of the Revelation? Those chapters contain letters to 7 churches. What I find most inspiring is that at the end of each church letter, there is an encouragement from Jesus about how he will reward those who overcome. He says much the same thing on a few occasions in the gospels, specifically using the word "overcome"

John 16:33--"I have told you all this so that you may have peace in me. Here on earth you will have many trials and sorrows. But take heart, because I have overcome the world.”

I believe that if we accept Jesus' gift of salvation and His Holy Spirit, we have already overcome the world.


God understands that we will fail in our attempts to grow closer to him. That's where grace comes in. We have a reason to keep trying because we know that God is willing to forgive us when we fail.

Very true!
 
  • Like
Reactions: psalms 91
Upvote 0

Alithis

Disciple of Jesus .
Nov 11, 2010
15,750
2,180
Mobile
✟94,492.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Ok, so it sounds like you're saying that Christians are supposed to live in a commune-type of living arrangement. Why didn't you tell us this before?



John 16:33--"I have told you all this so that you may have peace in me. Here on earth you will have many trials and sorrows. But take heart, because I have overcome the world.”

I believe that if we accept Jesus' gift of salvation and His Holy Spirit, we have already overcome the world.




Very true!

one problem with communes... if they are salt .it is piled in one spot.
have you seen what salt piled in one spot does to the earth?
 
  • Like
Reactions: psalms 91
Upvote 0

Angelquill

Bard of Angels
Jul 20, 2014
2,140
114
Following a Jewish carpenter...
✟2,838.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
I have actually lived in Christian communes. Remember, I am 63 years old, soon to be 64...born in the fall of 1950, I am an original 60s Flower Child...one of those who, back then, was called a "Jesus Freak".

A few of those commune experiences were glorious. Everyone shared everything in common, and everyone had more than they needed. Even our children were considered children of the community, and everyone cared for them. That is Christianity at it's best.

However, at least in my experience, that sort of thing is very rare. Most of the time, it doesn't last too long. As Peter could probably tell us...

Most of the time, however, those commune experiences did not work out so well. Usually you had one or two people who wanted to be "in charge" and make decisions for everyone else. The commune had become more "commun-ism"...there was no freedom at all. Needless to say, these sorts of arrangements soon broke up, often leaving those who had been involved broke and disillusioned.

If you can find a group that can truly share all things in common, may God bless you.
However, I wouldn't hold my breath. Remember, we are all sinners. Fighting our sin, yes...nevertheless, we still encounter sin in ourselves and in others. There is bound to be some jealousy, some greed, some bad feelings sooner or later in any such group. There will be scam artists seeking to take advantage of the more gullible in such a group. It is almost inevitable.

I wish it could be different. As I said, when it is good, the experience is glorious. It is as close to Heaven, I think, as we can get in this nasty ol' world of ours.
However, it's almost certain to come to a bad end. We live in a fallen world, with sin forever at the gate.

I guess what I am saying is just this.

Please, be careful about getting involved in such a community. It might sound good, but in the end, it is liable to leave you destitute and heart broken....
 
  • Like
Reactions: psalms 91
Upvote 0

Aldebaran

NCC-1701-A
Christian Forums Staff
Purple Team - Moderator
Supporter
Oct 17, 2009
38,654
12,107
Wisconsin, United States of America
✟622,977.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
Please, be careful about getting involved in such a community. It might sound good, but in the end, it is liable to leave you destitute and heart broken....

That's a very interesting experience you have shared with us, with lessons to be learned. Thank you for sharing!

I think the larger group of people you have in such a situation, the more likely it is that you'll see it fall apart due to abuse, jealousy, or other sin. If everyone is conditioned to trust everyone else, it becomes very easy for one person to take advantage of the rest.

Look at the old Soviet Union. That's about as big as a communist situation as you can get, and it fell apart. I know that's not a Christian-type situation, but it has the same goal of everyone chipping in and sharing. Those at the top sure were abusive, and under that system were able to control the rest easily.
 
  • Like
Reactions: psalms 91
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

tremble

^.^/
Feb 15, 2014
685
216
✟16,927.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
one problem with communes... if they are salt .it is piled in one spot.
have you seen what salt piled in one spot does to the earth?

You really just don't get it, do you? I can't believe it. Follow the example of Jesus and his disciples. Were they "salt piled in one spot"? No, they travelled around all over the place teaching other people to follow their example. Why is that so difficult for you to appreciate?

I mean really, who ever said that as Christians we should all stay in one spot and never leave? Where did you get that idea from? Certainly not the example of Jesus and his followers. If you're not listening to their example, then where are you getting your ideas from?

I think you've really messed yourself up with this whole, "we're not meant to follow a book" theory. It's like you can't even see the good in Jesus' example anymore, you just see it as a book that we should not follow. It seems to be some kind of hyper-fear that you've been indulging for so long that you auto-reject anything that sounds even slightly radical.

What's worse is that it's not just your own fear you are indulging; you're here on a forum representing Christianity in general and teaching this kind of fear as normal Christian behaviour.
 
  • Like
Reactions: psalms 91
Upvote 0