What Christians must do to keep their salvation

[Light of the East]

A lot of excellent posts recently!

Oz, cannot you see that everything in this passage could mean ...
Christ washed away one's PAST sins at the moment he/she becomes a BAC.

And the person has entered into the new covenant (belief in Jesus ... and obedience to Him).

All of those incredibly unpopular warning verses are to help BACs stay IN the new covenant.

And those who are being led by the Spirit, walking in the Spirit, not fulfilling the lust of the flesh, etc.
are living/walking "in Christ".

This, of course, coincides with "It is finished", etc.

Jesus came to open the door for some humans to gain access to the Father and heaven.
And those who really KNOW Father God and Jesus Christ have eternal life (John 17:2).
If one really "knows" Them, he/she will co-operate in being fully sanctified unto holiness.
Someone (not so recently) said that without holiness no one will see the Lord.
.

I recommend that anyone who wishes to understand covenant and covenant principles read the book THAT YOU MAY PROSPER -- Dominion by Covenant, by Ray Sutton. It is written BY A PROTESTANT, so you can't claim it is a "papist piece of trash," okay?

You can read it free online at the I.C.E. freebooks website.

In a covenant, oaths and sanctions are taken to the ethics of the agreed upon covenant. Here is the important part....if there is a violation of the ethics of the covenant, it requires restoration, especially if the violation is serious enough to break the covenant relationship.

Sanctions are those punishments for covenant violations. You can read this in Deut. 28 where God makes covenant with Israel and spells out quite clearly the blessings that will come from covenant obedience and curses that will come with covenant disobedience.

Our relationship with Christ (our covenant is with Him, not with God the Father) is the same way. When we sin, we fracture the relationship. If the sin is bad enough, the relationship is destroyed and unless we repent, the covenant curses will come upon us.

The Last Judgment is a time when covenant keepers will be rewarded with the inheritance of eternal life and covenant breaker will be given the curse of eternal death.

 

[extraordinary]

In a covenant, oaths and sanctions are taken to the ethics of the agreed upon covenant. Here is the important part....if there is a violation of the ethics of the covenant, it requires restoration, especially if the violation is serious enough to break the covenant relationship.
Sanctions are those punishments for covenant violations. You can read this in Deut. 28 where God makes covenant with Israel and spells out quite clearly the blessings that will come from covenant obedience and curses that will come with covenant disobedience.
Our relationship with Christ (our covenant is with Him, not with God the Father) is the same way. When we sin, we fracture the relationship. If the sin is bad enough, the relationship is destroyed and unless we repent, the covenant curses will come upon us.
The Last Judgment is a time when covenant keepers will be rewarded with the inheritance of eternal life and covenant breaker will be given the curse of eternal death.

To be fair, I see several problems.

For me ...
God's promises/prophecies of a new covenant (Jer 31, Ezek 36) were made only to the Jews.
(Paul comes along much later, saying that believing Gentiles are grafted in)

For others ...
Almost all of the salvation passages do not call for anything except believing.
Do any NT passages at all call for upholding a covenant?
Is the strictness of the OT held to a similar standard in the NT?
.

 

[faroukfarouk]

If you haven't got it, you never had it. John's First Epistle was written to give assurance to those who believe. 1 John 5.13

 

[extraordinary]

If you haven't got it, you never had it.
John's First Epistle was written to give assurance to those who believe. 1 John 5.13

Yes indeed, he gave assurance that IF they confessed their sins,
Jesus' precious blood would be applied to cleanse these sins away!
Sounds like a plan, and a reasonable one at that.

Kinda sounds like how God's people were supposed to stay in God's grace in the old covenant.
Like the new mirrors the old in a lot of ways, but the old + improvements = the new.
Yes, Jesus is the Mediator of a better covenant.

Over and out now ... from starship #38975421.
.

 

[Bro in Christ]

Jn 1:4 In JC was life; and the life was the light of men.

Jn 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

John 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, ......


Phil 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that the Holy Spirit which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

 

[extraordinary]

Phil 1:6 Being confident of this very thing,
that the Holy Spirit which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ

Thanks for the nice potpouri of hand-selected verses.
Butski, unfortunately 'tis the same old story ...

Paul's "confidence" is not the same as Paul sayin', "I know for sure that ...", etc.
Or, better still ...
"During those 17 years in the desert regions, Jesus told me that without any doubt ...".

No, there is doubt because Paul was always writing, "I hope ...".
I suggest you do an NT search on "hope".

Paul said he would say anything, do anything, etc. to get as many saved as possible!
So, this was Paul's mindset ...
"I hope my optimistic confidence is not misplaced, but I'll continue to kind of hide
all of my warnings in with my many exhortations, edifications, encouragements, etc.
because ...
I want to get credit for the salvation of as many of you dudes as I possibly can!
Hopefully, this method of mine will be successful ...
an ingeniously tactful combo of optimism (plusses) and pessimism (minuses).
Let the indwelling Holy Spirit reveal to you what's what!"
.

 

[Light of the East]

To be fair, I see several problems.

For me ...
God's promises/prophecies of a new covenant (Jer 31, Ezek 36) were made only to the Jews.
(Paul comes along much later, saying that believing Gentiles are grafted in)

For others ...
Almost all of the salvation passages do not call for anything except believing.
Do any NT passages at all call for upholding a covenant?
Is the strictness of the OT held to a similar standard in the NT?
.

Covenant principles do not change, regardless of whether it is a Suzerainty treaty covenant, the covenant of Yom Kippur, the personal covenant of salvation, or the covenant of marriage.

Every thing has certain principles which make it what it is. Looking, for instance, at a modern phenomenon, certain people want to now claim that marriage can be between a man and a man. Or a woman and a bridge. Well, they can call it what they want, but that does not change the fact that marriage is between a man and a woman. That is an inviolate principle.

Sutton lists five principles of covenant:

Transcendence -- the greater offers covenant to the lesser.

Hierarchy -- Headship over the covenant unit.

Ethics -- What are the rules of this covenant?

Oaths/Sanctions -- Vows taken when the covenant is made with sanctions for breaking those vows.

Succession -- the covenant passes on from generation to generation.

Take away any five of those and you do not have a covenant, you have something else which may look somewhat like a covenant, but is in fact not a covenant.

The covenant promises were made to Israel. Israel is the people of God. In the OT, there was a specific nation which was the people of God, and in order to belong to God, you had to be circumcised into that covenant with them. In the NT, the covenant has been expanded. The Jews are no longer the exclusive people of God, the congregation of the Lord. The Church has taken their place (Matthew 21: 33-46).

Paul alludes to this in Romans and Galatians when he states that all those who are of faith are the children of Abraham.

 

[Light of the East]

To be fair, I see several problems.

For me ...
God's promises/prophecies of a new covenant (Jer 31, Ezek 36) were made only to the Jews.
(Paul comes along much later, saying that believing Gentiles are grafted in)

For others ...
Almost all of the salvation passages do not call for anything except believing.
Do any NT passages at all call for upholding a covenant?
Is the strictness of the OT held to a similar standard in the NT?
.

Don't forget that you are reading the Scriptures with a 21st century mindset that has been severely tainted by Evangelicalism. Try to think like a first century Jew.

The Jews were covenant people. Covenant was life for them. Their scriptures were all about their covenant relationship with God. The idea of "faith alone" or just believing would have been met with incredulous looks if they had been told such a thing. They understood covenant, practiced covenant, and understood Jesus as Messiah in terms of covenant. This is why St. Paul addressed the Hebrews about Jesus being Great High Priest. That is a very covenant relative office. They needed to understand the transition from the Old Covenant to the New, especially since the Jews of the Circumcision Party were going around insisting upon circumcision to be a true believer. Paul's work was to show that the Old Covenant was over and make applications to the New Covenant, showing the transition from old to new.

 

[Light of the East]

If you haven't got it, you never had it. John's First Epistle was written to give assurance to those who believe. 1 John 5.13

Then kindly explain John 5:28-29, Romans 2: 5-10, Matthew 25: 31-46, and Revelations 20: 11-17. Each of these passages shows the Last Judgment where all men are judged and those who have done good works receive eternal life.

You claim that some already have it. What then is the purpose of the Judgment in these passages?

 

[extraordinary]

To be fair, I see several problems.
For me ...
God's promises/prophecies of a new covenant (Jer 31, Ezek 36) were made only to the Jews.
(Paul comes along much later, saying that believing Gentiles are grafted in)
For others ...
Almost all of the salvation passages do not call for anything except believing.
Do any NT passages at all call for upholding a covenant?
Is the strictness of the OT held to a similar standard in the NT?.

LOTE ...

It appears that you failed to speak to these problems.

And did you mean to say "take away any one of those" in THEOS?

Sutton lists the five THEOS principles of covenant:
Transcendence -- the greater offers covenant to the lesser.
Hierarchy -- Headship over the covenant unit.
Ethics -- What are the rules of this covenant?
Oaths/Sanctions -- Vows taken when the covenant is made with sanctions for breaking those vows.
Succession -- the covenant passes on from generation to generation.

Qvestion ... When does the BAC partake in the "O" part of THEOS?
.

 

[Light of the East]

LOTE ...

It appears that you failed to speak to these problems.

And did you mean to say "take away any one of those" in THEOS?

Sutton lists the five THEOS principles of covenant:
Transcendence -- the greater offers covenant to the lesser.
Hierarchy -- Headship over the covenant unit.
Ethics -- What are the rules of this covenant?
Oaths/Sanctions -- Vows taken when the covenant is made with sanctions for breaking those vows.
Succession -- the covenant passes on from generation to generation.

Qvestion ... When does the BAC partake in the "O" part of THEOS?
.

What are you referring to when you use the initials BAC?

 

[Bro in Christ]

romans 13:11 And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed. 12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light. 13 Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and envying. 14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.

why is their salvation nearer than when they first believed yet their still sinning?
God is awesome !

 

[extraordinary]

What are you referring to when you use the initials BAC?

I apologize ... Born Again Christian.
Blame me for it ... 'twas about 2 years ago now.
.

 

[extraordinary]

Romans 13:11 And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed. 12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light. 13 Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and envying. 14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.

why is their salvation nearer than when they first believed yet their still sinning? God is awesome !

IMO, Paul is up to his usual tricks ...
wrapping, cloaking, etc. his warnings in edifications and encouragements.

7 chapters back, he warned them that slaves of sin receive eternal death
... in much much more wrapping and cloaking than here!
.

 

[Bro in Christ]

blind ... blind ... blind

 

[Light of the East]

Okay.....here's the answer to your question.

Jesus said "This is the new covenant in my blood." We live in the New Covenant. Therefore, we are bound by the rules of covenant.

The whole Bible gives us numerous examples and analogies of covenant. We have to be willing to learn them and apply them to our lives.

For instance, there is no such thing as being "born again" by "accepting Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior." That idea came about in the 1850's by a man by the name of Charles Grandison Finney and his "new methods of evangelization."

In a covenant relationship (all covenants are about relationship) you enter that relationship through a covenant making ceremony. One of the clearest references to the nature of covenant is in Ezekial 16:8 where it is shown to be a relationship akin to the very intimate relationship of marriage. Covenant is entering a relationship with another, and it is not without reason that Christ calls us "the Bride of Christ." There is a real intimacy of relationship in our covenant with Him.

Just as two people are united by a covenant making ceremony called "marriage" in which they make vows (or oaths) to each other, so in the Church, in the covenant making ceremony of baptism, before the baptism takes place the one who is to be baptized makes vows of fidelity to Christ.

Q. "Do you reject Satan and all his pomp and false glories?"

A. "Yes, I reject Satan"

Q. "Do you promise to follow Christ and be faithful to Him?"

A? "Yes, I promise to follow Christ."


That is when it is done in the covenant making ceremony.

 

[Bro in Christ]

1 Jn 5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

 

[mercy1061]

romans 13:11 And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed. 12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light. 13 Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and envying. 14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.

why is their salvation nearer than when they first believed yet their still sinning?
God is awesome !

Israel left Egypt at night, she ate meat at night, she understood that G_d brought her out of Egypt

 

[Bro in Christ]

romans 13:11 And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed. 12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light. 13 Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and envying. 14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.

why is their salvation nearer than when they first believed yet their still sinning?
God is awesome !


But this believer .... Needs to understand 1 cor 6:19


What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? -20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

 

[mercy1061]

Don't forget that you are reading the Scriptures with a 21st century mindset that has been severely tainted by Evangelicalism. Try to think like a first century Jew.

The Jews were covenant people. Covenant was life for them. Their scriptures were all about their covenant relationship with God. The idea of "faith alone" or just believing would have been met with incredulous looks if they had been told such a thing. They understood covenant, practiced covenant, and understood Jesus as Messiah in terms of covenant. This is why St. Paul addressed the Hebrews about Jesus being Great High Priest. That is a very covenant relative office. They needed to understand the transition from the Old Covenant to the New, especially since the Jews of the Circumcision Party were going around insisting upon circumcision to be a true believer. Paul's work was to show that the Old Covenant was over and make applications to the New Covenant, showing the transition from old to new.

Abraham offered Isaac as a living sacrifice on the altar, the old covenant is not obsolete, Yeshua continues to serve as High Priest, appointing priests to pray at the altar. Consequently the church can never replace Israel for her fasting and prayer at the altar. The writer of Hebrews says we have an altar that those who serve in the Tent are NOT permitted to eat.

Heb 13
10 We have an altar from which those who serve in the Tent are not permitted to eat.

This kind of spirit come only be driven out by fasting and prayer; Israel had to drive out her enemies in order to inherit the promise land.

Mark 9

29 He said to them “This is the kind of spirit that can be driven out only by prayer.”