America Was Founded On Christian Principles

[Queller]

The Mayflower Compact:

SOURCE

This document shows intent to establish a Christian outpost here in what is now the United States.

God took that outpost and made a nation out of it and placed His name here.

If this country wasn't founded on Christian principles, then I don't know what country was.

Good thing our country wasn't founded on those principles, isn't it? Otherwise we would still be subject to English rule.

 

[Queller]

How is it dishonest to consolidate posts to make them easier to follow?

Because it actually makes it much harder to follow because people have to go back to previous posts that have already been read to see if they have changed. This makes it much more difficult to realize that an attempted rebuttal has been made. Which of course, is your whole reason for doing it in the first place.

 

[DaisyDay]

Even if true, that doesn't make it dishonest. That just makes it inefficient.

^^^changed

How is it dishonest to consolidate posts to make them easier to follow?

^^^original

Because it actually makes it much harder to follow because people have to go back to previous posts that have already been read to see if they have changed. This makes it much more difficult to realize that an attempted rebuttal has been made. Which of course, is your whole reason for doing it in the first place.

It is dishonest as far as it changes the original argument and makes it appear that the changed argument is the original.

It is cute the way you made refer-backs circular, but it highlights the dishonesty.

 

[AV1611VET]

Good thing our country wasn't founded on those principles, isn't it? Otherwise we would still be subject to English rule.

As I said, God had some forging to do.

We're human, and getting things right the first time isn't always easy.

 

[South Bound]

As I said, God had some forging to do.

We're human, and getting things right the first time isn't always easy.

Since you seem to be the only one here who's actually interested in the history of our republic, have you ever read The Legacy of Liberty and Property by Daniel Ford?

We use it in our homeschool lessons and it's an excellent overview of Christianity in the founding of our republic.

 

[AV1611VET]

Since you seem to be the only one here who's actually interested in the history of our republic, have you ever read The Legacy of Liberty and Property by Daniel Ford?

No, I haven't.

We use it in our homeschool lessons and it's an excellent overview of Christianity in the founding of our republic.

Thanks for the reference!

 

[szechuan]

We use it in our homeschool lessons and it's an excellent overview of Christianity in the founding of our republic.

that explains quite a lot.

 

[morningstar2651]

Are we all in agreement that Freedom of Religion is not a Christian Principle, and that it is in-fact contradictory to the first commandment?

I'll take the lack of objections to my post as tacit acceptance of this point - freedom of religion is a secular principle rather than a Christian principle.

I turn your attention now to more allegedly Christian principles:

The Equality of Man
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal." Declaration of Independence

This is a clear contradiction with Christian principles.

Christian Principle: Slaves are Property - Exodus 21:20-21
Anyone who beats their male or female slave with a rod must be punished if the slave dies as a direct result, 21 but they are not to be punished if the slave recovers after a day or two, since the slave is their property.​

Christian Principle: Men are superior to women - Leviticus 27:1-6
The Lord said to Moses, 2 “Speak to the Israelites and say to them: ‘If anyone makes a special vow to dedicate a person to the Lord by giving the equivalent value, 3 set the value of a male between the ages of twenty and sixty at fifty shekels[a] of silver, according to the sanctuary shekel; 4 for a female, set her value at thirty shekels[c]; 5 for a person between the ages of five and twenty, set the value of a male at twenty shekels[d] and of a female at ten shekels[e]; 6 for a person between one month and five years, set the value of a male at five shekels[f] of silver and that of a female at three shekels[g] of silver;​

"No title of nobility shall be granted by the United States" U.S. Constitution, Art. I, Sec. 9, Paragraph 8)

The Framers' intentions for this clause were twofold: to prevent a society of nobility from being established in the United States, and to protect the republican forms of government from being influenced by other governments. In Federalist No. 22, Alexander Hamilton stated, "One of the weak sides of republics, among their numerous advantages, is that they afford too easy an inlet to foreign corruption." Therefore, to counter this "foreign corruption" the delegates at the Constitutional Convention worded the clause in such a way as to act as a catch-all for any attempts by foreign governments to influence state or municipal policies through gifts or titles.

This was not religiously motivated, nor is it a Christian principle.

God-Given Human Rights

".that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." (Declaration of Independence)

Just because the word God is in the sentence doesn't make it a Christian principle. In fact, there is no such teaching within Christianity that people have rights.
Does the Bible teach that people have the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness?

Leviticus 27 is about ritual human sacrifice... Which totally flies in the face of that right to life, since all first-born sons are to be sacrificed to God a week after their birth.

Exodus 22:29-30
29 “Do not hold back offerings from your granaries or your vats.

“You must give me the firstborn of your sons. 30 Do the same with your cattle and your sheep. Let them stay with their mothers for seven days, but give them to me on the eighth day.​

(Note: Granaries and vats are probably euphemisms for genitalia in this context...)

Government authority by Consent of the Governed

".governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed." (Declaration of Independence)

"The United States shall guarantee to every state in this Union a republican form of government" (U.S Constitution, Art. IV, Section 4)

This is a clear contradiction with Christian principles.

Christian Principle: Government by consent of God - Romans 13:1-7
13 Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended. 4 For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience.

6 This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God’s servants, who give their full time to governing. 7 Give to everyone what you owe them: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.​

Sanctity of Contract

"No state shall.pass any. law impairing the obligation of contracts." (U.S Constitution, Art. I, Section 10, Paragraph 1)

This says nothing about contracts being sacred or sanctified...just that you shouldn't break them. Also, our country wasn't founded on this principle.

Two Witnesses
"No person shall be convicted of treason unless on the testimony of two witnesses to the same overt act, or on confession in open court." (U.S Constitution, Art. III, Section 3, Paragraph 1)

Is this even a principle? I doubt this was a sticking point between our founding fathers and the English when they declared their independence from England.

No Corruption of Blood
".but no attainder of treason shall work corruption of blood or forfeiture except during the life of the person attainted." (U.S Constitution, Art. III, Section 3, Paragraph 2)

This is a clear contradiction of Christian principles. The idea that descendants are not guilty of the crimes of their ancestors contradicts original sin, as well as a large number of other sections of the bible.

Christian Principle: Corruption of Blood - Deuteronomy 23:3-8
3 No Ammonite or Moabite or any of their descendants may enter the assembly of the Lord, not even in the tenth generation. 4 For they did not come to meet you with bread and water on your way when you came out of Egypt, and they hired Balaam son of Beor from Pethor in Aram Naharaim[c] to pronounce a curse on you. 5 However, the Lord your God would not listen to Balaam but turned the curse into a blessing for you, because the Lord your God loves you. 6 Do not seek a treaty of friendship with them as long as you live.

7 Do not despise an Edomite, for the Edomites are related to you. Do not despise an Egyptian, because you resided as foreigners in their country. 8 The third generation of children born to them may enter the assembly of the Lord.​

Sabbath Day Excepted

"If any bill shall not be returned by the President within ten days (Sundays excepted) after it shall have been presented to him, the same shall be a law, in like manner as if he had signed it." (U.S Constitution, Art. I, Section 7, Paragraph 2)

Even though Saturday is the Sabbath...how is this one sentence a principle our nation was founded upon? The Americans got so fed up with the English including Sundays in 10 day deadlines that they declared their independence?

Separation of Church and State

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof. (First Amendment, U.S. Constitution)

Well, apart from my previous 1st commandment example, there is this:

Christian Principle: Kill non-believers: Deuteronomy 13:13-17
13 that troublemakers have arisen among you and have led the people of their town astray, saying, “Let us go and worship other gods” (gods you have not known), 14 then you must inquire, probe and investigate it thoroughly. And if it is true and it has been proved that this detestable thing has been done among you, 15 you must certainly put to the sword all who live in that town. You must destroy it completely,[a] both its people and its livestock. 16 You are to gather all the plunder of the town into the middle of the public square and completely burn the town and all its plunder as a whole burnt offering to the Lord your God. That town is to remain a ruin forever, never to be rebuilt, 17 and none of the condemned things are to be found in your hands. Then the Lord will turn from his fierce anger, will show you mercy, and will have compassion on you. He will increase your numbers, as he promised on oath to your ancestors—
​

Separation of Powers Into Three co-equal Branches

How is this even a Christian principle?

 

[Queller]

Separation of Powers Into Three co-equal Branches

How is this even a Christian principle?

It isn't. The claim that it is a Christian principle is based on Isaiah 33:22

"For the Lord is our judge; the Lord is our lawgiver; the Lord is our king; he will save us."

Of course the claim totally ignores the fact that in this verse, the "judge" "lawgiver" and "king" are all the same being, completely the opposite of what we have.

 

[Teilhard]

Does white supremacy county as a christian principle?

 

[keith99]

Does white supremacy county as a christian principle?

Sadly to some it does.

 

[drjean]

One of the founding principles is the Redeeming Power of Christ. You don't find that in any other faith nor religion. __________________

In what way is that a founding principle? I don't see it reflected in government.

[SIZE=+1]John Adams[/SIZE]
SIGNER OF THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE; JUDGE; DIPLOMAT; ONE OF TWO SIGNERS OF THE BILL OF RIGHTS; SECOND PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity. I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God.[SIZE=-2]1[/SIZE]
Without religion, this world would be something not fit to be mentioned in polite company: I mean hell.[SIZE=-2]2[/SIZE]
The Christian religion is, above all the religions that ever prevailed or existed in ancient or modern times, the religion of wisdom, virtue, equity and humanity.[SIZE=-2]3[/SIZE]
Suppose a nation in some distant region should take the Bible for their only law book and every member should regulate his conduct by the precepts there exhibited. . . . What a Eutopia – what a Paradise would this region be![SIZE=-2]4[/SIZE]
I have examined all religions, and the result is that the Bible is the best book in the world.[SIZE=-2]5[/SIZE]

WallBuilders - Issues and Articles - The Founding Fathers on Jesus, Christianity and the Bible

[SIZE=+1]Josiah Bartlett [/SIZE] MILITARY OFFICER; SIGNER OF THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE; JUDGE; GOVERNOR OF NEW HAMPSHIRE Called on the people of New Hampshire . . . to confess before God their aggravated transgressions and to implore His pardon and forgiveness through the merits and mediation of Jesus Christ . . . [t]hat the knowledge of the Gospel of Jesus Christ may be made known to all nations, pure and undefiled religion universally prevail, and the earth be fill with the glory of the Lord.[SIZE=-2]15[/SIZE]

 

[saffron park]

States are organizations that believe that there can be authority from a source other than God, that men can stand above other men like gods, and from their thrones declare theft and violence moral actions. An anti-Christian organization cannot be founded on Christian principals.

 

[szechuan]

One of the founding principles is the Redeeming Power of Christ. You don't find that in any other faith nor religion.

yes you do, It's called Sikhism and Muslims i can probably name some other few.

it might not be Christ but it's a redeeming power of a God. Actually the majority of Religions have principles of Redemption.

 

[drjean]

yes you do, It's called Sikhism and Muslims i can probably name some other few.

it might not be Christ but it's a redeeming power of a God. Actually the majority of Religions have principles of Redemption.

But that is the point, isn't it? The USA is different because it is based upon CHRISTIAN principles... not Islamism, or another god... Christ's redeeming power as Son of God, God as a Trinity....i.e.

 

[GoldenBoy89]

But that is the point, isn't it? The USA is different because it is based upon CHRISTIAN principles... not Islamism, or another god... Christ's redeeming power as Son of God, God as a Trinity....i.e.

Except The US is not based on Christian principles. Nowhere is there any mention of the bible, Christ, or redemption in our constitution. It seems to be more about religious freedom than religious obedience.

So our government is really based on anything found in Christianity and our culture isn't very Christian either.

Where in Christianity do you find the idea of freedom of speech? Or freedom of religion. I'd call those defining principles of American governance. Where is the Christian inspiration for those two founding principles?

 

[Queller]

One of the founding principles is the Redeeming Power of Christ. You don't find that in any other faith nor religion. __________________

That is not a founding principle of the US, which is the topic of the thread.

 

[South Bound]

Except The US is not based on Christian principles.

OK. I realize you're just ignoring everything I say, so just consider this repeated again for lurkers:

Principle: All Men Are Created Equal

Deuteronomy 1:16-17, Leviticus 19:15Acts 10:34, and Galatians 3:28

Principle: All Rights Come From God

Genesis 1:27 - 28

Principle: Government authority by Consent of the Governed
Judeo-Christian Roots

Deuteronomy 16:18 and Deuteronomy 1:13-15

Principle: Sanctity of Contract

Numbers 30:2

Principle: Two Witnesses

Deuteronomy 17:6

Principle: No Corruption of Blood

Deut. 24:6

Principle: Sabbath Day Excepted

Exodus 20:8-10

Principle: Separation of Church and State

Luke 20:25

Nowhere is there any mention of the bible, Christ, or redemption in our constitution.

First, why does there have to be a mention of the Bible or Christ in the Constitution? It's a legal document. And why would it mention redemption, when it's not a religious document?

Second, why limit it to the Constitution, when there are hundreds of documents in our founding history? And don't you think it's just a wee bit hypocritical of you to demand that we limit our argument to the Constitution, when you routinely cite extra-Constitutional sources such as the Treaty of Tripoli?

So our government is really based on anything found in Christianity and our culture isn't very Christian either.

While it's true that we live in a post-Christian culture, our republic is founded on Christian principles, as evidenced by the examples I have repeatedly shown you and which you have repeatedly ignored.

Where in Christianity do you find the idea of freedom of speech? Or freedom of religion.

Exodus 20. You know, the passage I've cited for you repeatedly that you insist on ignoring.

 

[jzyehoshua]

I've examined this issue extensively on my site's Separation of Church and State page, and can definitely say the U.S. was founded on Christian principles, for the following reasons:

A) Congress has always opened with prayer.
B) All states including the original 13 reference God in their state constitutions.
C) The original version of the Constitution referred to God as the "Great Governour of the Universe", the Articles of Confederation.
C) Most of the original 13 states, 8 of them, kept non-Christians from running for public office.
D) Many of America's universities and colleges began as Christian seminaries for instructing pastors.
E) Separation of Church and State was originally designed to protect the Danbury Baptists who were being imprisoned at the time for their beliefs by Virginia's Anglican state church. Most states were run by churches, as was the case in Europe. Jefferson's letters to the Danbury Baptists are the origination of the phrase wall of separation where separation of church and state comes from. He and Madison united to help defend the Danbury Baptists.
F) Jefferson and Madison both wrote legislation on separation of church and state invoking reference to God and Christianity. Jefferson in the Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom begins by saying:

"Whereas, Almighty God hath created the mind free; That all attempts to influence it by temporal punishments or burthens, or by civil incapacitations tend only to beget habits of hypocrisy and meanness, and therefore are a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, who being Lord, both of body and mind yet chose not to propagate it by coercions on either, as was in his Almighty power to do, That the impious presumption of legislators and rulers, civil as well as ecclesiastical, who, being themselves but fallible and uninspired men have assumed dominion over the faith of others, setting up their own opinions and modes of thinking as the only true and infallible, and as such endeavouring to impose them on others, hath established and maintained false religions over the greatest part of the world and through all time"

Madison in his legislation, Memorial and Remonstrance Against Religious Assessments argues for Christian principles as the basis of religious freedom:

"We remonstrate against the said Bill, 1. Because we hold it for a fundamental and undeniable truth, 'that religion or the duty which we owe to our Creator and the manner of discharging it, can be directed only by reason and conviction, not by force or violence.' The Religion then of every man must be left to the conviction and conscience of every man; and it is the right of every man to exercise it as these may dictate. This right is in its nature an unalienable right. It is unalienable, because the opinions of men, depending only on the evidence contemplated by their own minds cannot follow the dictates of other men: It is unalienable also, because what is here a right towards men, is a duty towards the Creator. It is the duty of every man to render to the Creator such homage and such only as he believes to be acceptable to him. This duty is precedent, both in order of time and in degree of obligation, to the claims of Civil Society. Before any man can be considerd as a member of Civil Society, he must be considered as a subject of the Governour of the Universe: And if a member of Civil Society, do it with a saving of his allegiance to the Universal Sovereign. We maintain therefore that in matters of Religion, no man’s right is abridged by the institution of Civil Society and that Religion is wholly exempt from its cognizance. True it is, that no other rule exists, by which any question which may divide a Society, can be ultimately determined, but the will of the majority; but it is also true that the majority may trespass on the rights of the minority...
12. Because the policy of the Bill is adverse to the diffusion of the light of Christianity. The first wish of those who enjoy this precious gift ought to be that it may be imparted to the whole race of mankind. Compare the number of those who have as yet received it with the number still remaining under the dominion of false Religions; and how small is the former! Does the policy of the Bill tend to lessen the disproportion? No; it at once discourages those who are strangers to the light of revelation from coming into the Region of it; and countenances by example the nations who continue in darkness, in shutting out those who might convey it to them. Instead of Levelling as far as possible, every obstacle to the victorious progress of Truth, the Bill with an ignoble and unchristian timidity would circumscribe it with a wall of defence against the encroachments of error."



G) Public officials have been sworn in from America's earliest days on the Bible.
H) The Constitution was based on William Penn's Province of Pennsylvania in 1682 which originally created religious freedom, a bill of rights (then called Charter of Principles), made a two-house legislature which was the basis for the House and Senate, had a governor instead of president, granted trial by jury, had a public education system, and peacefully coexisted with Native Americans unlike other colonies - Penn even insisted on fairly purchasing land from them despite his charter.

 

[szechuan]

.