Question that is preventing me from investigating Christianity further

[alexiscurious]

Hello Christian Forums,

The question on my mind has been bothering me for a while now. I would appreciate as many replies and thoughts on this as possible.

MY QUESTION:
How was I born into this crooked and corrupt life apart from my creator? Whenever I ask myself this question I am directed to Romans 5:12. This verse takes me to the story of the first two humans in existence. I realize their stupidity, but why should their decision affect me in any way? Was I consulted before they picked a fruit off a tree? Was I secretly involved in their defiance and disobedience? How in the world am I supposed to accept the punishment for a decision that was not mine to make? How did you and I get tangled up in this mess to begin with?

From what I understand, God originally planned humanity to be perfect and to live with him in harmony forever. How was the life God destined for me and you altered because of a careless decision someone else made? Romans 3:23 says because one man sinned we all fall short of the glory of God. When Satan/Luficer/The Devil sinned did all angels fall short of the glory of God as well? That isn't the case. So why is it humans are the only part of creation that this weird concept seems to apply to? Why did other angels not have to share punishment for what Satan did? But yet, I am supposed to accept the punishment for what Adam/Eve did? How does this make any sense?

So why is it I'm sitting here now, in this incomplete state, where I have to reconcile with my creator before the end of my life or else I will be in eternal damnation? Why couldn't I live the blissful and worry-free life God intended for me to have?

Thanks,
Alex

 

[lesliedellow]

The problem Christianity addresses is set out in Romans 7.14-25. You can believe that Genesis 3 contains an account of how we came to be so messed up, or not. The fact is that we are here.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

alexiscurious

Hello Christian Forums,

The question on my mind has been bothering me for a while now. I would appreciate as many replies and thoughts on this as possible.

MY QUESTION:
How was I born into this crooked and corrupt life apart from my creator?

Great question, Alex! What you're asking is something many of us have wrestled with in the attempt to find an "answer."

Based on the sources I've read, my understanding as to why it is so difficult to answer questions such as yours is that the Bible represents ancient cognitive categories that carry both ontological implications and teleological ones. The ontological ones can be correct, even though (what seems ironically to us) the teleological ones are not reflective of "reality as it is, or has been." So, today, we have a grave difficulty in reconciling the application of the Bible to our lives, especially as we reflect upon our situation within what is reported to us in the Bible as a 'sinful' world.

Whenever I ask myself this question I am directed to Romans 5:12. This verse takes me to the story of the first two humans in existence. I realize their stupidity, but why should their decision affect me in any way?

First, before assuming the meaning of the text from Paul that you've cited, and before attempting to apply it, we should try to understand the cognitive categories that made up the typical "worldview" of Jewish and Gentile people of the 1st century AD. Rather than go into an elaborate explanation of all that, however, let me just say that the typical "worldview" was not the one expressed by Lucretius. That is, the evolutionary one that we have in many ways appropriated today (and by which we have thus drastically differentiated our teleological understanding from that of Paul's day.)

So, the story related by Paul about Adam can be correct ontologically, but incorrect teleology; we still are in a sinful world, even if the Adam 'story' is only representative of the 'how' of sin's coming forth into the world. The underlying ontology is that human beings have always had a sinful streak that divides them from the Creator, as well as from each other, and also from the creation in which they've been placed (and developed).

Was I consulted before they picked a fruit off a tree?

Nope. No one was. Of course, I also wasn't consulted about the choice of parents I would "be given to" either.

Was I secretly involved in their defiance and disobedience?

No, not secretly, but we all find a way to be sinful in our lives, even if the sinfulness comes about by "ignorance." [Keep in mind that I'm using the term 'ignorance' here in a philosophical way, not a literal one. I'm not implying that you're an ignorant person.]

How in the world am I supposed to accept the punishment for a decision that was not mine to make? How did you and I get tangled up in this mess to begin with?

Same as the previous ideas I gave just above.

From what I understand, God originally planned humanity to be perfect and to live with him in harmony forever. How was the life God destined for me and you altered because of a careless decision someone else made? Romans 3:23 says because one man sinned we all fall short of the glory of God.

Yep, ontologically, we've all sinned; that ontological truth is wrapped up in the ancient Jewish worldview, with all of it's attending cognitive categories. And let's just say that the cognitive categories are primarily "prophetic" and ontological, and they were never intended to be scientific in the way that we understand the meaning of scientific to be today.

When Satan/Luficer/The Devil sinned did all angels fall short of the glory of God as well? That isn't the case. So why is it humans are the only part of creation that this weird concept seems to apply to? Why did other angels not have to share punishment for what Satan did? But yet, I am supposed to accept the punishment for what Adam/Eve did? How does this make any sense?

Great questions, but you're missing one. If we take your questions and apply them to the passage of Paul's that you've cited above, then we also need to ask: Why does Jesus' death on the cross not universally transfer to all humanity automatically and fully across the board? We both know that the New Testament's indicates that the gift of forgiveness is only given to those who accept it on an individual basis; there is no "original forgiveness" so to speak.

So why is it I'm sitting here now, in this incomplete state, where I have to reconcile with my creator before the end of my life or else I will be in eternal damnation? Why couldn't I live the blissful and worry-free life God intended for me to have?

Basically, because we live in a world that is populated by limited human beings who find it difficult to fulfill the best intentions of the Creator. But by difficult, I do not mean to also imply 'impossible.'

Anyway, another point I'd like to cut to: perhaps we should see the "Lucretian" change in teleological perspective that we 'enjoy' today as the main reason that many people are 'falling away' from the Christian faith (something Paul alluded to in a prophetic way).

With that, I'll also leave you with an academic source (book) that you might find thought-provoking, if not helpful to some extent.

Evangelical Faith and the Challenge of Historical Criticism, Edited by Christopher M. Hays and Christopher B. Ansberry

Thanks,
Alex

Peace

 

[alexiscurious]

alexiscurious

Great question, Alex! What you're asking is something many of us have wrestled with in the attempt to find an "answer."

Based on the sources I've read, my understanding as to why it is so difficult to answer questions such as yours is that the Bible represents ancient cognitive categories that carry both ontological implications and teleological ones. The ontological ones can be correct, even though (what seems ironically to us) the teleological ones are not reflective of "reality as it is, or has been." So, today, we have a grave difficulty in reconciling the application of the Bible to our lives, especially as we reflect upon our situation within what is reported to us in the Bible as a 'sinful' world.

First, before assuming the meaning of the text from Paul that you've cited, and before attempting to apply it, we should try to understand the cognitive categories that made up the typical "worldview" of Jewish and Gentile people of the 1st century AD. Rather than go into an elaborate explanation of all that, however, let me just say that the typical "worldview" was not the one expressed by Lucretius. That is, the evolutionary one that we have in many ways appropriated today (and by which we have thus drastically differentiated our teleological understanding from that of Paul's day.)

So, the story related by Paul about Adam can be correct ontologically, but incorrect teleology; we still are in a sinful world, even if the Adam 'story' is only representative of the 'how' of sin's coming forth into the world. The underlying ontology is that human beings have always had a sinful streak that divides them from the Creator, as well as from each other, and also from the creation in which they've been placed (and developed).

Nope. No one was. Of course, I also wasn't consulted about the choice of parents I would "be given to" either.


No, not secretly, but we all find a way to be sinful in our lives, even if the sinfulness comes about by "ignorance." [Keep in mind that I'm using the term 'ignorance' here in a philosophical way, not a literal one. I'm not implying that you're an ignorant person.]

Same as the previous ideas I gave just above.

Yep, ontologically, we've all sinned; that ontological truth is wrapped up in the ancient Jewish worldview, with all of it's attending cognitive categories. And let's just say that the cognitive categories are primarily "prophetic" and ontological, and they were never intended to be scientific in the way that we understand the meaning of scientific to be today.


Great questions, but you're missing one. If we take your questions and apply them to the passage of Paul's that you've cited above, then we also need to ask: Why does Jesus' death on the cross not universally transfer to all humanity automatically and fully across the board? We both know that the New Testament's indicates that the gift of forgiveness is only given to those who accept it on an individual basis; there is no "original forgiveness" so to speak.


Basically, because we live in a world that is populated by limited human beings who find it difficult to fulfill the best intentions of the Creator. But by difficult, I do not mean to also imply 'impossible.'

Anyway, another point I'd like to cut to: perhaps we should see the "Lucretian" change in teleological perspective that we 'enjoy' today as the main reason that many people are 'falling away' from the Christian faith (something Paul alluded to in a prophetic way).

With that, I'll also leave you with an academic source (book) that you might find thought-provoking, if not helpful to some extent.

Evangelical Faith and the Challenge of Historical Criticism, Edited by Christopher M. Hays and Christopher B. Ansberry

Peace

So it's perfectly fine and completely justified that the God who created me in His image detached from me before I even existed? That seems a bit too early for me. This is the question that I just can't get around. How am I supposed to accept this?

Why couldn't I be born with a blank slate like Adam was? Shouldn't we all have this same opportunity? Why do I have to fix a relationship with a God I did not anger? Any way you try to put this it still will always come out to: you lost your relationship with God because of someone else's screwup. Some will claim that I lost my relationship with Him because of my own sins but that isn't the case. My relationship with Him was lost even before I committed my first sin. Is this not true?

I didn't quite understand your response to: When Satan/Luficer/The Devil sinned did all angels fall short of the glory of God as well? That isn't the case. So why is it humans are the only part of creation that this weird concept seems to apply to? Why did other angels not have to share punishment for what Satan did? But yet, I am supposed to accept the punishment for what Adam/Eve did? How does this make any sense?
You just seemed to answer it with another question that confused me.

Thanks for taking the time to answer,
Alex

 

[2PhiloVoid]

So it's perfectly fine and completely justified that the God who created me in His image detached from me before I even existed? That seems a bit too early for me. This is the question that I just can't get around. How am I supposed to accept this?

Why couldn't I be born with a blank slate like Adam was? Shouldn't we all have this same opportunity? Why do I have to fix a relationship with a God I did not anger? Any way you try to put this it still will always come out to: you lost your relationship with God because of someone else's screwup. Some will claim that I lost my relationship with Him because of my own sins but that isn't the case. My relationship with Him was lost even before I committed my first sin. Is this not true?

I didn't quite understand your response to: When Satan/Luficer/The Devil sinned did all angels fall short of the glory of God as well? That isn't the case. So why is it humans are the only part of creation that this weird concept seems to apply to? Why did other angels not have to share punishment for what Satan did? But yet, I am supposed to accept the punishment for what Adam/Eve did? How does this make any sense?
You just seemed to answer it with another question that confused me.

Thanks for taking the time to answer,
Alex

Hi Alex,

You're welcome--I always appreciate that people can discuss these often sophisticated theological and philosophical issues.

In responding here to your question about whether or not God is justified in holding each of us accountable in a way that seems to us to be, basically, 'before the facts,' I would like to point out that your question assumes two things: 1) an Augustinian framework, and 2) a teleology of Adam (and Eve) that likely does not reflect the actual natural history of human kind.

In other words, the whole point of the Adam and Eve story in Genesis chapters 2 and 3 is to establish that humanity as a whole has, to varying degrees, a sinful nature.

Additionally, if we take Romans 5:21 seriously in at least at an ontological level, then we have to take the context of Romans 5:21 into consideration, the context of which would--at the least--be constituted of the rest of the entire book of Romans.

If we pay attention to the context of Paul's thought in Romans, the implication is that God has displeasure with mankind as a whole because we collectively separate ourselves from God, suppress the truth, and degrade our godly image by choice, thus separating ourselves in increasing degrees from God's immediate presence. However, this stops for each of us when we reach out to Jesus.

Additionally, even if we hold forth the point that God has allowed each of us to be subject to, and caught within, a sinful world, we should also work to be consistent by giving Him credit that He also provides us--right now at the very same moment of our spiritual discomfort--the opportunity to alleviate ourselves of the impending penalty.

If God held us accountable for humanities' past accumulation of sin, thereby affecting us now without choice, He would be "guilty" of moral negligence if, at the same time, He did not extend an alternative that allows us to get out of the penalty and wrath being directed at us. But, as the New Testament states, we do have "immediate hope" right now, present to our cognitive awareness, through the Gospel message, the Gospel message which you admit you already are aware of.

More directly, you are accountable for your sins that are a part of the overall sin matrix of humanity--but despite the negativity that seems implied with that statement, an immediate 'fix' is available at this very moment.

In sum, people die because they withdraw their hand from anything and everything pertaining to life that God offers at this moment; people do not die simply because of any kind of "original sin."

 

[agua]

So it's perfectly fine and completely justified that the God who created me in His image detached from me before I even existed? That seems a bit too early for me. This is the question that I just can't get around. How am I supposed to accept this?

Why couldn't I be born with a blank slate like Adam was? Shouldn't we all have this same opportunity? Why do I have to fix a relationship with a God I did not anger? Any way you try to put this it still will always come out to: you lost your relationship with God because of someone else's screwup. Some will claim that I lost my relationship with Him because of my own sins but that isn't the case. My relationship with Him was lost even before I committed my first sin. Is this not true?

I didn't quite understand your response to: When Satan/Luficer/The Devil sinned did all angels fall short of the glory of God as well? That isn't the case. So why is it humans are the only part of creation that this weird concept seems to apply to? Why did other angels not have to share punishment for what Satan did? But yet, I am supposed to accept the punishment for what Adam/Eve did? How does this make any sense?
You just seemed to answer it with another question that confused me.

Thanks for taking the time to answer,
Alex

Why couldn't I be born with a blank slate like Adam was? Shouldn't we all have this same opportunity? Why do I have to fix a relationship with a God I did not anger? Any way you try to put this it still will always come out to: you lost your relationship with God because of someone else's screwup. Some will claim that I lost my relationship with Him because of my own sins but that isn't the case. My relationship with Him was lost even before I committed my first sin. Is this not true?

Why do you think your own sin isn't the cause of your separation from Yahweh ? Adam's sin brought the consequence of death but it doesn't cause you to sin. ie. the only thing you are bound by because of Adam's sin is physical death which is temporary. Your relationship with Yahweh is dependent upon you.

Rom 5:12-14 KJV Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (13) (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. (14) Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.


If you don't sin you won't be punished for sinning ie. tossed into the LoF. Of course we know no man is sinless and therefor must repent and turn to Yahweh for the remission of sins.

 

[theophilus777]

So it's perfectly fine and completely justified that the God who created me in His image detached from me before I even existed? That seems a bit too early for me. This is the question that I just can't get around. How am I supposed to accept this?

I am created in my Father's image, and in his likeness. This is what the Bible tells us of everyone after Adam and Eve, and it is what I find to be true. People debate over to what extent we still have the original Divine spark, but I find all of that to be imperceptibly small compared to His regenerative work, in me as an individual, in this lifetime.

I could be wrong, but that's what I go with.

Why couldn't I be born with a blank slate like Adam was? Shouldn't we all have this same opportunity?

If any of us need to shake our fist at God, best to do it now, in this lifetime, with plenty of time to examine things afterwards. If that is not your posture here I apologize, tone is difficult to perceive online.

Why do I have to fix a relationship with a God I did not anger?

If we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves. I actually know what my own original sin was, I don't need to blame anyone else for that. Do you profess you have no such thing?

Any way you try to put this it still will always come out to: you lost your relationship with God because of someone else's screwup. Some will claim that I lost my relationship with Him because of my own sins but that isn't the case. My relationship with Him was lost even before I committed my first sin. Is this not true?

No that's not true. The historic Church attests to this by Baptizing babies

Does that help at all?

 

[dcalling]

I think what it means is that once we got the gene that let us know right from wrong, we have to be responsible for our actions, and since none of us can make all the right choices, we are doomed to be sinful because it is in our genes now.

The gene is passed from Adam/Eve to all of us.

 

[mmksparbud]

I don't know that anyone can answer that question to the satisfaction of that individual. This much I can say is what I believe.
We, unlike the angels, share the DNA of Adam and Eve. We are their children. The angels had no mother and father save God, their creator. We, alone, are created in the image of God--the angels were not. When the angels rebelled against God, there was war and they were thrown out. They were not destroyed. Many ask why--for me, it's that God chose to use them to show the rest of the angels and the rest of the universe (according to Job--other worlds do exist)--what it means to choose to go with the fallen and not God. Had He destroyed them, the universe would have obeyed God out of fear, not love. Now, the "stage" was set and the play would go on to it's finale.
Adam and Eve were given free will, just as the angels were. They chose to follow Satan--that it meant the children of Adam and Eve also, I don't know, nor does the bible say, that Adam and Eve were aware of it. We were, along with this whole planet, created to procreate and bring forth other life---the angels were not. Christ said the angels neither marry nor are given in marriage,though some believe fallen angels bred with humanity (to me, that does not jive with what Christ said or with anything else)--Now we inherit the fallen nature of Adam and Eve, as we were conceived after their fall. Is it fair to us--who said it was fair??!!--Nothing that Satan offers if right, good, fair just. That is the lot we've been given, do not blame God for it, it was not His choice but our original parents. God and His Son, in His mercy towards Adam and Eve and all their descendants, knowing they would fall, provided forgiveness from that fall through the death of His Son. It is His death that pays the price of our rebellion. The fallen angels have no such provision. They are condemned to destruction so I wouldn't envy them if I were you!!
True--God could have ended the whole thing ages ago--at the time of the flood, He could have sent His Son to die and saved those few then--but then you wouldn't have had the chance to choose Him, nor any of all those millions of others in between. He wants as many souls as He can get. May not answer all your questions, it's enough for me. Satan started this mess, he's to blame, and God is doing all He can to save as many souls as He can from His hands--Satan hates all humanity and wants us all destroyed as he knows he will be. The whole universe has now seen the end result of Satans' lies and manipulations. Don't let him have you, too.

 

[ALoveDivine]

When Adam and Eve sinned, they fell from fellowship with God, as God cannot abide sin. Every human that has ever been born since then has come from Adam and Eve, who by their own actions alienated themselves from God, therefore we ourselves are also alienated from God, being their offspring.

Here is how I look at it. God demands perfect righteousness, as there is no blemish in him at all, no sin whatsoever. When Adam and Eve sinned, the righteousness of man was trashed, as the righteousness they initially had was a product of God's sustaining grace, and with the severing of the fellowship consequent their sin, this grace was removed. In Adam and Eve, and their sin, mankind became alienated from God.

Thankfully God loved sinners so much that he sent his son, Jesus Christ, into the world. Christ lived the perfectly righteous life that alienated sinful creatures like ourselves could never live. He bore the sins of his people in his own body, went to the cross, shed his blood and died under the divine wrath of almighty God due to us on account of our sin.

On the cross God treated Jesus as if he had lived your life, so that he could treat you as if you had lived his.

If you will repent, which means to surrender your life to Christ as Lord, and believe the Gospel, that Christ died for your sins, you shall be saved. God will reconcile you unto himself, forgive you all your sins and guarantee for you an inheritance in future glory.

 

[alexiscurious]

I am created in my Father's image, and in his likeness. This is what the Bible tells us of everyone after Adam and Eve, and it is what I find to be true. People debate over to what extent we still have the original Divine spark, but I find all of that to be imperceptibly small compared to His regenerative work, in me as an individual, in this lifetime.

I could be wrong, but that's what I go with.




If any of us need to shake our fist at God, best to do it now, in this lifetime, with plenty of time to examine things afterwards. If that is not your posture here I apologize, tone is difficult to perceive online.




If we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves. I actually know what my own original sin was, I don't need to blame anyone else for that. Do you profess you have no such thing?



No that's not true. The historic Church attests to this by Baptizing babies

Does that help at all?

I don't believe I should be punished for something that is inevitable, unavoidable, and happened before I ever existed. How am I supposed to convince myself to reconcile my relationship with a Creator that detached from me before I was ever born? Did I do something wrong while I was in the loins of Adam?

You argue your relationship with God was not lost before you existed. That is wrong. Anyone here will attest to that. Because one man fell all men fell is how it goes.

 

[theophilus777]

I don't believe I should be punished for something that is inevitable, unavoidable, and happened before I ever existed. How am I supposed to convince myself to reconcile my relationship with a Creator that detached from me before I was ever born? Did I do something wrong while I was in the loins of Adam?

You argue your relationship with God was not lost before you existed. That is wrong. Anyone here will attest to that. Because one man fell all men fell is how it goes.

I advise you to look into Orthodox Christianity. They do not teach what you profess here, and that is what gives you trouble, right? Perhaps it is a sticking point to you because it is incorrect, and you somehow know this. Perhaps if you saw their theology laid out, you would find it easy to embrace?
They do have a section here. they are also the only group to host their own debate section. I think that's because they know their stuff.

In the meantime can you explain to me how it is ethically proper to Baptize an infant if what you say here were true? (Under the actions speak louder than words Dep't)

 

[alexiscurious]

I advise you to look into Orthodox Christianity. They do not teach what you profess here, and that is what gives you trouble, right? Perhaps it is a sticking point to you because it is incorrect, and you somehow know this. Perhaps if you saw their theology laid out, you would find it easy to embrace?
They do have a section here. they are also the only group to host their own debate section. I think that's because they know their stuff.

In the meantime can you explain to me how it is ethically proper to Baptize an infant if what you say here were true? (Under the actions speak louder than words Dep't)

What does baptizing babies have to do with this?

 

[Sketcher]

How was I born into this crooked and corrupt life apart from my creator? Whenever I ask myself this question I am directed to Romans 5:12. This verse takes me to the story of the first two humans in existence. I realize their stupidity, but why should their decision affect me in any way? Was I consulted before they picked a fruit off a tree? Was I secretly involved in their defiance and disobedience? How in the world am I supposed to accept the punishment for a decision that was not mine to make? How did you and I get tangled up in this mess to begin with?

Because human decisions don't exist in a vacuum. If I do something good or bad, that can effect multiple people, even generations of people.

From what I understand, God originally planned humanity to be perfect and to live with him in harmony forever. How was the life God destined for me and you altered because of a careless decision someone else made? Romans 3:23 says because one man sinned we all fall short of the glory of God. When Satan/Luficer/The Devil sinned did all angels fall short of the glory of God as well? That isn't the case. So why is it humans are the only part of creation that this weird concept seems to apply to? Why did other angels not have to share punishment for what Satan did? But yet, I am supposed to accept the punishment for what Adam/Eve did? How does this make any sense?

All humanity (that was two people at the time) fell together. Only one third of the angels chose to follow Lucifer, so not all angels fell together. Also, it is not accurate to say that God is holding Adam and Eve's individual sinful deeds over your head. The human race became sinners by nature after they sinned, but we have plenty of our own sins that we will be punished for, outside of our turning to Christ.

So why is it I'm sitting here now, in this incomplete state, where I have to reconcile with my creator before the end of my life or else I will be in eternal damnation? Why couldn't I live the blissful and worry-free life God intended for me to have?

The more pertinent question is that why are you in fact sitting in this incomplete state, yet to be reconciled with your Creator? Why not come to him and completely yield to him, knowing that you have sinned against him on your own?

 

[alexiscurious]

Because human decisions don't exist in a vacuum. If I do something good or bad, that can effect multiple people, even generations of people.


All humanity (that was two people at the time) fell together. Only one third of the angels chose to follow Lucifer, so not all angels fell together. Also, it is not accurate to say that God is holding Adam and Eve's individual sinful deeds over your head. The human race became sinners by nature after they sinned, but we have plenty of our own sins that we will be punished for, outside of our turning to Christ.


The more pertinent question is that why are you in fact sitting in this incomplete state, yet to be reconciled with your Creator? Why not come to him and completely yield to him, knowing that you have sinned against him on your own?

Thanks for your reply,

God is definitely holding Adam/Eve's sinful deeds over my head. Is that not the reason why He detached from you and I before we ever existed? A bit early don't you think? Is it fair that I have to forfeit my initial relationship with Him because of their careless decision? Why wasn't I given the same opportunity they were? It's like one person starting a class with an A and one starting with an F. One has no work to do and the other one has a burden on his shoulders and he's only just started the class. Doesn't seem very fair to me.

So angels are somehow unaffected by the actions of Satan but we are not unaffected by the actions of Adam/Eve? Is there a particular reason for this? Some said sin carries through DNA and since we were created separately it starts at it's roots. How can someone else's disobedience carry on through DNA? It was their decision, shouldn't their disobedience stay with them? What's the point of free will and the accountability of one's actions if my entire life was essentially in the hands of two idiots who were not content in a paradise with everything?

I don't believe I should by default be eternally damned for something that is inevitable, unavoidable, and happened before I ever existed. How am I supposed to convince myself to reconcile my relationship with a Creator that detached from me before I was ever born? Equally important, how did you convince yourself to do this as well? Did you or I do something wrong while we were in the loins of Adam?

Looking forward to your response,
Alex

 

[Lollerskates]

Alex, I understand you well.

But, keep in mind God gave the command to be fruitful and multiply before the fall. In other words, it was not His command or "intention" to have the two human primes populate the earth with corruption - their purpose was to replenish the earth as it had become void (not created that way.)

I put intention in quotes because He makes right out of wrongs, and Christ was always there as part of the salvation plan.

 

[agua]

I don't believe I should be punished for something that is inevitable, unavoidable, and happened before I ever existed. How am I supposed to convince myself to reconcile my relationship with a Creator that detached from me before I was ever born? Did I do something wrong while I was in the loins of Adam?

You argue your relationship with God was not lost before you existed. That is wrong. Anyone here will attest to that. Because one man fell all men fell is how it goes.

You argue your relationship with God was not lost before you existed. That is wrong. Anyone here will attest to that.

Nah I agree as well. If you never sinned you will never be in enmity with Yahweh. Only Jesus was able to do this though. I have to say you seem to be trying to avoid the consequences of your sin.

 

[Emmy]

Dear alexiscurious. Why make it sound so unfair and also wrong? Adam and Eve were innocent and obedient, UNTIL the crafty Tempter in the guise of a Serpent, lured the still innocent Adam and Eve, into gross disobedience.
They ate of the forbidden fruit and their eyes were opened and the time had come for God to banish them to Earth. The Old Testament tells us in detail how the men and women who came after them, gradually became more and more sinful and grossly evil, as we can read so fully in the Bible. The Prophets in the O.T. tried to do what God told them, but Mankind had become
evil sinners, on the whole. We know that Jesus our Saviour had come in time,
and how Jesus died for us, that we may live again. The New Testament tells us what we have to do: " Be Born Again," and Repent of our sins.
It is wrong of you to blame God for allowing the sins of Adam and Eve to make us into sinners. The Old Testament proves that we all became sinners
because of our own choosing, and we have another chance to become as God wanted us from the very beginning: Love God with all our hearts, with all our souls, and with all our minds. Also: Love our neighbour as we love ourselves.
Repent and be Born Again, become the sons and daughters which God our Heavenly Father, wants us to become. Jesus will help and guide us:
" JESUS IS THE WAY. I say this with love, alexiscurious. Greetings from Emmy, sister in Christ.

 

[RDKirk]

I don't believe I should be punished for something that is inevitable, unavoidable, and happened before I ever existed. How am I supposed to convince myself to reconcile my relationship with a Creator that detached from me before I was ever born? Did I do something wrong while I was in the loins of Adam?

You argue your relationship with God was not lost before you existed. That is wrong. Anyone here will attest to that. Because one man fell all men fell is how it goes.

Let's say, for a moment, that you don't actually believe the Adam and Eve story as a physical fact anyway. Let's say it is simply a parable or a fable designed to explain to early believers that all men have a natural barrier between them and God that has existed from the time that man could be called "man."

The point is that you are separated from God and always have been. That separation is engendered by something within you, and God seeks to bridge that separation, to repair it, and to be joined to you.

Paul then stood up in the meeting of the Areopagus and said: “People of Athens! I see that in every way you are very religious. or as I walked around and looked carefully at your objects of worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: to an unknown god. So you are ignorant of the very thing you worship—and this is what I am going to proclaim to you.

“The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by human hands. And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything. Rather, he himself gives everyone life and breath and everything else. From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands.

God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us. ‘For in him we live and move and have our being.’As some of your own poets have said, ‘We are his offspring.’" -- Acts 17

Let's say for the moment that the Genesis story was just to explain to early believers who asked "how did this happen in the beginning." That's a question for some other time. Paul did not need to explain that to the Athenians.

The thing to know and to act upon is that this is where we are now, and God has provided a way to resolve it.

 

[alexiscurious]

Alex, I understand you well.

But, keep in mind God gave the command to be fruitful and multiply before the fall. In other words, it was not His command or "intention" to have the two human primes populate the earth with corruption - their purpose was to replenish the earth as it had become void (not created that way.)

I put intention in quotes because He makes right out of wrongs, and Christ was always there as part of the salvation plan.

If it was not his intention for two humans to populate the rest of the earth with corruption then why create humanity separately and at different times? Why didn't he just create everyone at once so you could be held accountable for your actions and I could be held accountable for mine?

I'm tired of everyone saying I'm ignoring my own sin, and to focus on my sin. My own sin was not the cause of my relationship with God being broken. My question revolves around someone else's sin.