How does God know the future?

[abacabb3]

Thanks guys. You have done a pretty good job of letting me what Calvinism is, but I don't think my brain will ever make sense of what you are telling me. "Everything that happens in time was decreed from all eternity." Adam and Eve's rebellion was decreed from all eternity? What does that even mean?

Is this really confusing? God knows everything, which includes everything that has and will ever occur. So yes, he knew Satan would rebel against him. He knew Eve would be decieved and Adam would not protect her and they would both partake of the fruit.

The real confusing part is arguing how both of these would somehow not be true. It would require God to not be omniscient.

 

[JM]

No, I am not asking why. I do not even understand what you are saying. "Decreed the fall" sounds like nonsense to me. I don't know what the meaning of "fall" you could be using. If the fall was decreed, than Adam and Eve were doing what they were supposed to be doing, so how could it even be called a "fall"?

What is the ultimate end of mankind? To glorify God and enjoy Him forever. (Ps. 86:9; Isa. 60:21; Rom. 11:36; I Cor. 6:20; 10:31; Rev. 4:11; Ps. 16:5-11; 144:15; Isa. 12:2; Luke 2:10; Phil. 4:4; Rev. 21:3-4)

Everything that takes place in time will achive the purpose of God, God is never frustrated...ever.

I quoted Luther in post #11 to help explain the original Lutheran position. There is nothing in time that did not find it's instigation in the eternal decrees of God. Consider the story of Joseph being sold into slavery compounded by the lie his brothers told their father. This one event in time was purposed by God from eternity. Man's actions were sinful, "ye thought evil against me" and "God meant it unto good..." The purse was stated as, "to save much people alive." Man sinful. God righteous and holy. One act with two purposes. (Gen. 50.20)

I think "predordination" is just too strong a word to describe Rom 8:28. God can work events to his purposes without preordaining them.

How do, "all things work together for them that love God" if all things are not preordained? Do you believe God learns about something, or surprised by some event and just makes the best He can of a bad situation? That isn't the God of the Bible. That god's actions are dependent upon the creature, the creatures will and whims.

My point was that I don't think any of the verses are describing the predestination of all things. I don't take the fact that God predestined Christians to faith to mean that God predestined everything.

A short thread discussing how God ordains all things including evil.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7810672/

 

[Gimmick]

Is this really confusing? God knows everything, which includes everything that has and will ever occur. So yes, he knew Satan would rebel against him. He knew Eve would be decieved and Adam would not protect her and they would both partake of the fruit.

The real confusing part is arguing how both of these would somehow not be true. It would require God to not be omniscient.

I agree God knows everything. You are assuming God knowing everything is the same thing as God decreeing everything, which is one thing I don't understand about Calvinism.

...
How do, "all things work together for them that love God" if all things are not preordained? Do you believe God learns about something, or surprised by some event and just makes the best He can of a bad situation? That isn't the God of the Bible. That god's actions are dependent upon the creature, the creatures will and whims.

Yes, to put it bluntly. I think that very thing happens in the Bible. Although I wouldn't put it that way. Doesn't just do the best he can, I would say he works all those bad situations towards his purpose, not by decreeing everything, but by working at it.

Also, we may be "Luther"an, but not everything Luther said is considered correct.

 

[stenerson]

Yes, to put it bluntly. I think that very thing happens in the Bible. Although I wouldn't put it that way. Doesn't just do the best he can, I would say he works all those bad situations towards his purpose, not by decreeing everything, but by working at it.

Also, we may be "Luther"an, but not everything Luther said is considered correct.

God is not simply fumbling to work all these twists and turns into His purpose. God determines the intricate details.

Acts 4:27,28 "Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the Gentiles and the people of Israel in this city to conspire against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed. They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen."

 

[JM]

...I would say he works all those bad situations towards his purpose, not by decreeing everything, but by working at it.

Are you an open theist?

 

[abacabb3]

I agree God knows everything. You are assuming God knowing everything is the same thing as God decreeing everything, which is one thing I don't understand about Calvinism.

Let's put semantics aside. Did God know Satan was going to rebel before he did? Of course.

Why didn't God stop it before hand? It isn't because He can't. We already know from Revelation He can.

So, why didn't He? It's unavoidable, things that exist and occur are therefore ordained, as if it were against God's will He would change it because He has perfect foreknowledge of the future and omnipotence in which to make changes.


TO argue against this makes GOd either NOT all-powerful or NOT all-knowing. Luther understood this.

 

[Gimmick]

God is not simply fumbling to work all these twists and turns into His purpose. God determines the intricate details.

Acts 4:27,28 "Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the Gentiles and the people of Israel in this city to conspire against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed. They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen."

That is a good one. But it is still describing the predestination of one event, the crucifixion. I don't think it necessarily means everything is predestined. If the Bible describes one thing that isn't predestined, then not every thing is. And that is remarkably easy to find in the Bible. I'm thinking Genesis 6:5–8.

Are you an open theist?

I believe God knows everything that was, is, and will be. If there is something that doesn't exist, I don't think it counts against God's omniscience if he doesn't know about it. I don't think that makes me open theist. At any rate, I don't call myself one.

Let's put semantics aside. Did God know Satan was going to rebel before he did? Of course.

Why didn't God stop it before hand? It isn't because He can't. We already know from Revelation He can.

So, why didn't He? It's unavoidable, things that exist and occur are therefore ordained, as if it were against God's will He would change it because He has perfect foreknowledge of the future and omnipotence in which to make changes.


TO argue against this makes GOd either NOT all-powerful or NOT all-knowing. Luther understood this.

I think I could agree with this definition of "ordained." If it really includes events that happen because it was not God's will to stop them, then no problem.

 

[abacabb3]

I think I could agree with this definition of "ordained." If it really includes events that happen because it was not God's will to stop them, then no problem.

I don't think any Calvinist would disagree with this. And, being a Lutheran, you probably already believe in monergism. So, like Luther said, God can so affect man's heart that when he previously did not understand, nor wanted to accept the Gospel by his free will, that by the grace of God he can understand and desire faith in Christ. SO, GOd does not do away with free will, but God mysteriously can change the inclinations of our hearts from evil to good.

If we all agree on this, everything else is semantics.

 

[JM]

I think I could agree with this definition of "ordained." If it really includes events that happen because it was not God's will to stop them, then no problem.

That would mean our Triune God is not in control of all things, He simply holds his foot above the break peddle and allows the car to run all over the road.

The chief end of God is to glorify Himself. How is that God glorifying?

 

[abacabb3]

That would mean our Triune God is not in control of all things, He simply holds his foot above the break peddle and allows the car to run all over the road.

The chief end of God is to glorify Himself. How is that God glorifying?

JM, he's coming around, if he agrees with Luther on God's affect on the will then there is no more argument.

 

[Skala]

Thanks guys. You have done a pretty good job of letting me what Calvinism is, but I don't think my brain will ever make sense of what you are telling me. "Everything that happens in time was decreed from all eternity." Adam and Eve's rebellion was decreed from all eternity? What does that even mean?

It means Jesus being glorified as the savior of fallen men was not a lucky byproduct of Plan B, but Plan A all along.

What are you trying to tell me? God decreed a rebellion against himself? How could you rebel against that? Would you rebel by not rebelling, since God decreed a rebellion? I am not following.

The Bible is clear that God created the creation to glorifiy himself. That includes all of his attributes. If he sought to glorify his justice and wrath against sin, then that means sinners was part of his plan. And likewise, he wanted to glorify his grace and mercy, that means he needed sinners to rescue.

"Everything was created for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of evil" Prov 16:4

If Calvinism is correct and it is my fault by being too think-headed to understand, then that's the way it is going to be, I guess.

Calvinists also believe that God uses means to reach an ends. Maybe your struggle with these doctrines is precisely the means God is using to bring you a better understanding of these deep and complex Biblical truths.

 

[Gimmick]

It means Jesus being glorified as the savior of fallen men was not a lucky byproduct of Plan B, but Plan A all along.

Why wouldn't it be more like plan C, with plan B being to wipe man and animals from the face of the Earth (Genesis 6)?

The Bible is clear that God created the creation to glorifiy himself. That includes all of his attributes. If he sought to glorify his justice and wrath against sin, then that means sinners was part of his plan. And likewise, he wanted to glorify his grace and mercy, that means he needed sinners to rescue.

All I can really say is that makes God sound very, very strange.

"Everything was created for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of evil" Prov 16:4

That's a pretty good proof text, although the translations of that verse seem to vary a bit.

 

[Hentenza]

How does God know the future, according to Calvinism?

In my casual reading on the subject I have found information defending the Calvinist position, but it is mostly written like I should already know what the Calvinist position is.

Is this fair to say: "God knows the future because he preordained the future."

And preordaining the future does not simply mean the general course of history will unfold how he planned, but it means he preordained everything. He knows what color shirt I will wear each day next year because he preordained that I would wear those colors. He knows I will tell a lie next week because he preordained that I will tell a lie next week.

Am I close? Thanks.

P.S. I'm Lutheran, in case it helps to know my background on the subject. We officially have no position on how God knows the future.

Hi Gimmick,

God knows the future because of His perfect knowledge. This is not just a Calvinist belief.

 

[abacabb3]

Gimmick, can God so affect the heart of man so that he can choose faith in Christ or is God not all powerful enough to do that?

 

[Skala]

Why wouldn't it be more like plan C, with plan B being to wipe man and animals from the face of the Earth (Genesis 6)?

It seems like plan A. If you consider that from all eternity God's goal was for Christ to be glorified as a savior, and the Father was to give the Son a people (a bride), then it stands to reason that those people had to first be sinful before they could be saved.

You can't save innocent people. Innocent people have no reason to praise Christ for his grace and mercy, or praise him for being a savior. Thus, God's plan for creation had to include sin, and sinners.

This means that our relationship with God goes much deeper than simply worshiping Him because He is God (though, that would be sufficient). He's not only God, he's Savior, lover, friend, gracious, merciful.

All I can really say is that makes God sound very, very strange.

Well, then you must find Romans 9 very strange. Because that's exactly what it says