The physical descendants of the acient nation of Israel.

[riverrat]

Yes, because that is part of what justification means in Galatians. It means that neither circ nor non-circ is anything but rather the new creation of those people who are in Christ. This has nothing to do with any of todays theology systems, and futurism would be equally irrelevant.

That same group of people demarked by this name are the ones who recieve Abraham's promise, which is justification and the Spirit of God for the mission of God through that message. 3:14. On that there would be friction with futurism which is 2P2P and no where in the NT.

AC+MC+PC+DC+NC=2P2P

 

[Interplanner]

The NT does not teach the standard dispensationalist view of two people, two programs. As found in D. Pentecost, Ryrie, Walvoord, Gaebelein, Scofield, BW, etc.

 

[Douggg]

The NT does not teach the standard dispensationalist view of two people, two programs. As found in D. Pentecost, Ryrie, Walvoord, Gaebelein, Scofield, BW, etc.

Inter, in your created term two people, two programs - how are the Jews saved and have eternal life?

 

[Interplanner]

As far as I know Ryrie created the term in D'ISM TODAY, a req'd reading at the Bible college I attended in the 70s.

Justification has always been by faith. Paul kept that clear in Gal 3 in case Judaism succeeded to confuse people by replacing the promise of faith with observances of the law. Or by confusing shadow with reality. Or by confusing a celebration with an obligation. Anyway, Abraham's faith predates his circumcision, and other people's faith in the Seed predate both. The object these people believed in was the Gospel, although a 'picture' may have been supplied to help them understand--a custom, a 'promised land' promise, an escape, etc.

 

[Douggg]

As far as I know Ryrie created the term in D'ISM TODAY, a req'd reading at the Bible college I attended in the 70s.

Justification has always been by faith. Paul kept that clear in Gal 3 in case Judaism succeeded to confuse people by replacing the promise of faith with observances of the law. Or by confusing shadow with reality. Or by confusing a celebration with an obligation. Anyway, Abraham's faith predates his circumcision, and other people's faith in the Seed predate both. The object these people believed in was the Gospel, although a 'picture' may have been supplied to help them understand--a custom, a 'promised land' promise, an escape, etc.

I am asking you how the Jews will be saved and have eternal life in the two people two programs other than being saved by believing in the shed blood of Jesus for the remission of their sins, making them white as snow, as though they never happened?

There are not two programs for persons to be saved. There never have been. There never will be.

 

[Interplanner]

I'm not 2P2P Doug. You'd have to ask them. Ask BW. You'll get 20 pages, but you'll have your answer.

 

[Old Timer]

Most Christians understand that Israel shall be saved in that Day exactly as everyone else has been saved.. by grace through faith..

When the nation of Israel is led to repentance by the goodness of God and then delivered in their deepest time of need.. even when the entire world shall gather against them..

Because that is what the LORD says that He is going to do.. and all of the hatred for that nation and all of the cowards in the world are not going to be able to do a thing about it..

In that Day..

 

[ebedmelech]

Most Christians understand that Israel shall be saved in that Day exactly as everyone else has been saved.. by grace through faith..

No. That's not what scripture says. Romans 11:1-6 makes it clear God has been saving a remnant of Israel since Christ ascended, and it started at Pentecost.

When the nation of Israel is led to repentance by the goodness of God and then delivered in their deepest time of need.. even when the entire world shall gather against them..

Wrong again. We learn through Romans 11:11-24 that Israel is a natural (Jews) and wild (Gentiles) olive tree grafted together to make ONE TREE.

Because that is what the LORD says that He is going to do.. and all of the hatred for that nation and all of the cowards in the world are not going to be able to do a thing about it..

In that Day..

No. Old Timer says that...NOT the Lord. The Lord says...Ephesians 4:4-6:
4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling;
5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all.

God's "Israel" is not the Israel you describe! They are NOT all Israel who are descended from Israel!

 

[Old Timer]

No. That's not what scripture says. Romans 11:1-6 makes it clear God has been saving a remnant of Israel since Christ ascended, and it started at Pentecost.

I was referring to Peter.. call him a liar if you'd like..

But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

The context is crystal clear.. salvation with respect to Jews and Gentiles.

Wrong again. We learn through Romans 11:11-24 that Israel is a natural (Jews) and wild (Gentiles) olive tree grafted together to make ONE TREE.

Or you're wrong and refuse to admit or see that ISRAEL is presently CUT OFF and blinded in part until the fulness of the GENTILES be come in...

No doubt the most ignored warning in the NT and no doubt the reason for so many becoming wise in their own conceits.

God's "Israel" is not the Israel you describe! They are NOT all Israel who are descended from Israel!

I know, it's all just pretend Israel over there and you're the true super spiritual Israel..

 

[ebedmelech]

I was referring to Peter.. call him a liar if you'd like..

Peter is consistent with Paul...he calls the Church a CHOSEN RACE! You miss again!

The context is crystal clear.. salvation with respect to Jews and Gentiles.

That's right...and they are ONE PEOPLE of God!

Or you're wrong and refuse to admit or see that ISRAEL is presently CUT OFF and blinded in part until the fulness of the GENTILES be come in...

No...it's a PARTIAL blindness... "fleshly" Jews are being saved everyday!

No doubt the most ignored warning in the NT and no doubt the reason for so many becoming wise in their own conceits.

As you've just shown yourself to be doing!

I know, it's all just pretend Israel over there and you're the true super spiritual Israel..

Call it what you want... your errors are GLARING and apparrent...which is why your view is total error!

 

[Interplanner]

OT you might clarify about what is being pretended over there. It's not the pouring out of the Spirit as mentioned in all the OT passages of the restoration. It might be a delusional resurgence of the Levitical worship system.

 

[Old Timer]

Peter is consistent with Paul...he calls the Church a CHOSEN RACE! You miss again!

Right, because Peter is an Apostle to the circumcision.. one of the TWELVE Apostles of the Lamb.

That's right...and they are ONE PEOPLE of God!

NOT yet... or do you simply continue to willfully ignore the fact that Israel is blinded in part until the fulness of the Gentiles come in?

Why do people IGNORE this crucial warning from the Apostle to the GENTILES>

No...it's a PARTIAL blindness... "fleshly" Jews are being saved everyday!

While Israel remains an ENEMY to the gospel.. that's right.

As you've just shown yourself to be doing!

Might as well say "I know you are but what am I" to this nonsense.

Call it what you want... your errors are GLARING and apparrent...which is why your view is total error!

You know what's funny Eb.. there's no doubt in my mind that you can see these gross errors of yours.. but what's sad is that you can't admit that you're wrong about anything...

Yeah, you're Israel.. the real Israel is just make believe.. it's all good.

Enjoy

 

[ebedmelech]

Right, because Peter is an Apostle to the circumcision.. one of the TWELVE Apostles of the Lamb.

WHile Peter was the apostle to the circumcision...take a look at what he says to the Gentiles in 1 Peter 2:9, 10 which you willfully ignore:
9 But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God’s own possession, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;
10 for you once were not a people, but now you are the people of God; you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.

Hello???

NOT yet... or do you simply continue to willfully ignore the fact that Israel is blinded in part until the fulness of the Gentiles come in?

Don't skate around what you said...you said Israel was "cut off"...I merely pointed out your error.

Why do people IGNORE this crucial warning from the Apostle to the GENTILES>

Who does that? What I don't accept is your "two people of God" view because scripture doesn't teach that...you have been taught that...and it is ERROR!

While Israel remains an ENEMY to the gospel.. that's right.

"Fleshhly Israel was and remains an enemy of the church. However Paul is telling us this so we understand that God has partially blinded them for our benefit. That's clear.

Might as well say "I know you are but what am I" to this nonsense.

Do what you do. I'm a spiritual Jew...

You know what's funny Eb.. there's no doubt in my mind that you can see these gross errors of yours.. but what's sad is that you can't admit that you're wrong about anything...

Then you best think again, because what's really happening is you're seeing what you believe has glaring errors, and you continue thread after thread wanting agreement of others. Others will not stand with you before the Lord for what they believed of His word...you alone will be there.

Yeah, you're Israel.. the real Israel is just make believe.. it's all good.
Enjoy

I am!!! Just as my siggy says...I'm a FELLOW CITIZEN and JOINT HEIR with all who come to Christ Jew or Gentile and we are THE ISRAEL OF GOD!

144,000 sealed, which you cant see!

 

[Old Timer]

WHile Peter was the apostle to the circumcision...take a look at what he says to the Gentiles in 1 Peter 2:9, 10 which you willfully ignore:
9 But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God’s own possession, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;
10 for you once were not a people, but now you are the people of God; you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.

Hello???

The same apostle who speaks of the grace which is to be brought to them at the revelation of Jesus Christ..

I'll bet you don't like that part..

Don't skate around what you said...you said Israel was "cut off"...I merely pointed out your error.

You're the only one skating.. and it's thin ice.. because if you can't see that the nation of Israel has been cut off from Christ, then you're obviously intentionally closing your eyes.

Who does that? What I don't accept is your "two people of God" view because scripture doesn't teach that...you have been taught that...and it is ERROR!

Well, if Isreal being blinded in part until the fulness of the Gentiles comes in... is not what scripture teaches.. then so be it.. I thought it did because I read it a million times.

"Fleshhly Israel was and remains an enemy of the church. However Paul is telling us this so we understand that God has partially blinded them for our benefit. That's clear.

No Eb.. the NATION Of Israel and its leadership remain an enemy of the gospel..

I am!!! Just as my siggy says...I'm a FELLOW CITIZEN and JOINT HEIR with all who come to Christ Jew or Gentile and we are THE ISRAEL OF GOD!

144,000 sealed, which you cant see!

OH, you're one of the 144000 Israelites sealed.. LOL.. which tribe are you from Eb?

 

[ebedmelech]

The same apostle who speaks of the grace which is to be brought to them at the revelation of Jesus Christ..

I'll bet you don't like that part..

You don't have a clue Old Timer. In typical fashion you want to assert some dislike of Jews. It doesn't deserve a response.

You're the only one skating.. and it's thin ice.. because if you can't see that the nation of Israel has been cut off from Christ, then you're obviously intentionally closing your eyes.

Because they haven't been! The only thing cut off is your ability to comprehend.

Well, if Isreal being blinded in part until the fulness of the Gentiles comes in... is not what scripture teaches.. then so be it.. I thought it did because I read it a million times.

So if it's "in part" how are they cut off? You're effectively showing your error.

No Eb.. the NATION Of Israel and its leadership remain an enemy of the gospel..

I was treated quite well when I was in Israel. I enjoyed the people and I had a great time. They are no where near the enemy they were in the time Paul wrote Romans...Israel was persecuting the church with Rome's authority. Nothing like today. They are not the enemy Paul was speking of.

OH, you're one of the 144000 Israelites sealed.. LOL.. which tribe are you from Eb?

Pick one.

 

[Old Timer]

You don't have a clue Old Timer.

Come on Eb.. tell us something we don't already know!

 

[Old Timer]

Because they haven't been! The only thing cut off is your ability to comprehend. So if it's "in part" how are they cut off? You're effectively showing your error.

Eb, you're telling me that the nation of Israel is IN CHRIST right now?

That's ridiculous.. most unbelievers understand that Israel has not received the Lord Jesus Christ as their Messiah and their King.. even 'til this DAY..

And we know that they ultimately will receive Him in that Day..

At the revelation of Jesus Christ..

 

[Old Timer]

Israel's house has been left desolate... until the time they call upon the name of the LORD and are saved..

Don't ya'll remember... how Jacob was left alone.. and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the DAY..

Well, the night is far spent.. can you see that Day approaching?

 

[ebedmelech]

Eb, you're telling me that the nation of Israel is IN CHRIST right now?

No. I'm telling you that you don't know who Israel is.

That's ridiculous.. most unbelievers understand that Israel has not received the Lord Jesus Christ as their Messiah and their King.. even 'til this DAY..

Most unbelievers have not read "they are NOT ALL Israel, who are descended from Israel"...the very passage you tap dance around!

And we know that they ultimately will receive Him in that Day..

At the revelation of Jesus Christ..

Indeed...THE TRUE CIRCUMCISION, who worship in the Spirit of God, and glory in Christ Jesus, and put NO confidence in the flesh. (Philippians 3:3).

If you had a clue...

 

[Interplanner]

OT, rather than banking so much on 2P2P, you should at least allow for the whole stream of thinking in the NT to be different, because we've given several kinds of reasons. From the most ancient passages to the most current (Hebrews). There just is no clear indication that there will be a wholesale conversion to Christ in our future; many of those OT passages just as easily relate to the huge numbers who believed at Pentecost and shortly after. There is certainly no clear NT passage.

You may have notice that I don't get involved in pre-mid-post rapture questions here for the same reason: the weakness of reasons.