The Catholic Church

[Rhamiel]

I have noticed that the Catholic Church and Her teachings have been coming up more and more frequently in conversation, I have seen a few misunderstandings and oversimplifications and instead of correcting them all one at a time it would probably just be better to make a new thread where such issues can be addressed.
Also Saucy seems to be interested in talking about more in depth issues of theology concerning the Catholic Church.

I hope that all people involved in this can act with maturity and charity towards others and that this can help clear up misunderstandings and that we can seek the truth together

 

[Saucy]

Well, I want to give a little bit of back story.

A lot of people assume protestants are Catholic-haters, especially if they are against the teachings of the Catholic church. Maybe some feel they were raised or taught that way by protestant churches/family. Well, that's not me. My whole family is atheist and I was atheist most of my life growing up.

When I was 19, I started to have a crisis of faith. God spoke to me in a way that sent me in a panic. I knew I was mortal and went out on a journey to find the truth. I dabbled into paganism a little bit, followed psychics, but none of it gave me any satisfaction. It was as if God was leading me in the right direction and there was a void that needed to be filled by him.

My friend invited me to church and the moment I walked in, I knew I was in the right place. The word had meaning to me. I then worked the next few years to fight against everything I had learned and thought was true as an atheist. I became a new man in Christ.

I continued my education. Over the years I went to bible college, was a minister in that church for seven years. After my dad was killed in a work accident, I lost everything and had to drop out of college and my faith has struggled off and on for quite awhile. I never gave up on God or my faith, but I was upset with Him. We have been rekindling things for several years now.

Anyway, that thirst for the truth has never left me. My church did teach me that the bible is God's holy word. It is the truth about what He wanted us to know. God's moral law, man's sinfulness, His plan of salvation, the Good News, it was all finished by Christ on the cross who said, "it is finished!"

So not too long ago, I moved into a house and found that my roommate was Catholic. We would end up discussing biblical matters because he is new to the faith and he would have questions. Before we knew it, we were butting heads (in a respectful manner) because he would tell me something and I would say, "that's not in the bible. I don't know where you got that from." So he would be sharing all these things that really contradicted what I believed.

I knew the Catholics believed a little differently from me, but never paid attention to it. Being non-denominational, I focused solely on the word and not all the different denominations that separate us.

He would tell me about Mary being the queen of Heaven and we must pray through her to gain salvation, that we can lose grace, that I cannot even take communion in their church! So I went to his church a few weeks ago and they wouldn't let me take it! They treated me like I was a dirty heathen!

So basically my complaints are why the Catholic church separates themselves. I saw Byzintine's post about Catholics being every bit as Christian as the Protestants, but really it seems like it's the Catholics who believe they are superior and have a higher calling than Protestants. We are all brothers and sister, so why can't we share communion in the name of our Lord?

So these things started to fester in me more and more and it has created some animosity in my heart. I've always worked to try and unite us all under the same banner. So to be treated like this, really doesn't sit well. The past month or so I've really been studying the Catholic-specific faith and I just don't see why it's done. Like dipping your fingers and crossing yourselves. What is that about? Where is that in the bible? Does it give you a special advantage over us who don't do it? If not, then why do you do it?

 

[Rhamiel]

well you have said that your room mate is new to Christianity and new to the Catholic Church?

So maybe he is not the best source of information about Catholic teachings.

the idea that people who are not members of the Catholic Church can not take Communion is one that has caused much resentment.
but as you have pointed out in other parts of your post, there are differences in what we believe.
1 Corinthians 10:17
Because there is one loaf, we, who are many, are one body, for we all share the one loaf.

sharing the Eucharist is more then just a sign that we believe in Christ
it is also a sign of unity, and there is not full unity at this time, either in doctrine nor in polity
so it would be dishonest for us to share a sign of unity when that unity is not yet complete

as for the sign of the cross?
the cross is a reminder of what Jesus did for us, the water reminds us of the Baptism
Baptism and the Cross are connected
Romans 6:3
Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?

but yeah, the sign of the cross is not "magic" it is just a reminder of His suffering and that we were washed clean in the waters of Baptism

 

[Saucy]

But we are still of the same body. There will never be unity until we are together in the marriage supper of the lamb. We won't always believe the same exact things and we don't have to. Some of us are the hands, some are the feet. We are different parts of the same body. We all have the same goal, not to focus so much inward, but outward. but we are in so much competition that it's sickening!

There were always differences in the early church and they continue until today.

 

[GoingByzantine]

You have shared a lot Saucy, and I truly appreciate it, it really helps to know the faith background of other members when having discussions like this. I would like to begin by addressing this bit from your post:

He would tell me about Mary being the queen of Heaven and we must pray through her to gain salvation, that we can lose grace, that I cannot even take communion in their church! So I went to his church a few weeks ago and they wouldn't let me take it! They treated me like I was a dirty heathen!

Your roommate is new in his faith and likely developed a misunderstanding on the teaching of Mary in the Church. Yes we believe that Mary can intercede to Jesus on our behalf (any saint could for that matter), but there is no requirement that we pray to her for our salvation. Jesus is ultimately still our High Intercessor, so whether you go through Mary or not...so long as you are praying to him and believe in him you are ok

I actually have a more in depth explanation of this doctrine at this link:

http://www.christianforums.com/t7822326-29/#post65633967

I would be honored if you checked it out! I have to step away from my computer for a few minutes, but I will try to address any questions you might have when I get back. It is great to have this thread of fellowship between Christians of different traditions, where we can discuss such things respectfully.

 

[Saucy]

Good responses and they were helpful. We will disagree on Mary's importance, but it is good to see at least that she is not worshiped nor do you need to pray through her. Really I view Mary as any ordinary woman. Yes, she played an important role in God's plans, but so did David and Paul and many numerous people. Mary had no more of a special calling than perhaps Moses did who was actually glowing with the spirit of God. Yes, they should be remembered and discussed, but prayed to? I don't get that.

I guess my biggest objection to that is Christ is the one who filled the gap between God and man. So why pray to her when you can pray to the creator of the universe? We have the extreme honor to enter into God's throne room anytime we want, but we choose to pray to someone who has long since passed on? Some Catholics believe they were healed by a saint or by Mary. I just can't see how they have healing power or anything such thing. They are no different than any other person who lived and died (outside of Christ).

My roommate goes crazy with it though. We got into a heated debate because I think scripture clearly says Joseph and Mary got married (I don't believe in ever-virgin as it's clear they were married and saved themselves until after Jesus was born) and they even had kids. But he said a ten-commandment believing Joseph would never have sex with "God's chick" and it would be him committing adultery and God and Mary had sex to conceive Jesus and it just went too far.

 

[WithLoveFromAlyssa]

Yes we believe that Mary can intercede to Jesus on our behalf (any saint could for that matter),

Im confused.
where in the bible does it say that?

What about 1 Timothy 2:5?
For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Jesus Christ


Thank you!

 

[Cearbhall]

I was Catholic until I was 15 and I just finished my 16th year of Catholic schooling (I did the math and I can't even believe it). Irish Catholic background. Needless to say, I know more than I ever wanted to know (even though I freely chose to attend a Catholic university haha).

For some reason, US society seems to think that Catholic = most conservative Christians, which isn't true at all. The Catholic Church agrees with evolution, doesn't treat the Bible as a history book, and says that homosexuality is innate...

I think it's just because a plurality of US Christians are Catholic, so they're what people know, and they have the strongest global representation.

 

[Saucy]

Im confused.
where in the bible does it say that?

What about 1 Timothy 2:5?
For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Jesus Christ


Thank you!

yes I know. A lot of these differences aren't in the bible or even mentioned. They are traditions added on later because they think they have authority to make such changes. But they often times go against the word.

 

[Rhamiel]

But we are still of the same body. There will never be unity until we are together in the marriage supper of the lamb. We won't always believe the same exact things and we don't have to. Some of us are the hands, some are the feet. We are different parts of the same body. We all have the same goal, not to focus so much inward, but outward. but we are in so much competition that it's sickening!

There were always differences in the early church and they continue until today.

lets look at the early Church
in Acts 15 we saw a problem in the early Church, some were teaching that gentile converts had to be circumcised and follow Jewish customs.
Did they just "agree to disagree" and form different denominations?
No, they had a council in Jerusalem where the leaders of the different local churches met together and talked out the problems and then applied the rulings of that council to their local communities.
We do not see modern Christianity following the model in Acts, when Methodist, Lutherans, Catholics, Eastern Orthodox and hundreds of independent Evangelical congregations have a disagreement they do not have a council together and work out those problems, they just stay separate denominations.
this is NOT the Acts model

so while PERFECT unity is not possible here on earth, there can be greater unity in both doctrine and formal unity before Communion can be shared

Paul takes the creation of division among Christians very seriously
Romans 16:17
I urge you, brothers and sisters, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keep away from them.

 

[Cearbhall]

So basically my complaints are why the Catholic church separates themselves. I saw Byzintine's post about Catholics being every bit as Christian as the Protestants, but really it seems like it's the Catholics who believe they are superior and have a higher calling than Protestants.

Well, basically, the RCC is the original church, and everything else broke off of it, as I'm sure you know. The Catholic Church has become a bit more PC about the wording since Vatican II, but they essentially view you as heretics who have left Paul's Church and need to rejoin the fold, which is accurate from a historical standpoint.

What fun.

 

[Saucy]

But ask yourselves why we're separate. Why did the Protestant movement begin? Maybe because corrupt Catholic leaders were suppressing, even murdering those who didn't accept their very definitions...that popes ruled as kings and thought they had supreme authority to do things their way. When has the Catholic church tried to apologize for what they did? They killed more people than Hitler, yet when the pope tries to talk about peace, he would rather invite Muslims and Jews to the Vatican instead of trying to repair with their own Christian brothers and sisters.

I don't see how any of this was cause by anything other than people standing up to the church and their self-described ideas of authority and going against what is in the bible.

 

[scraparcs]

I get the sense that Catholics tend to view scripture and Church Tradition as sources of authority, hence leading to a scriptural view that while scripture is ultimately authoritative, it's not the only source of authority. So asking a Catholic where something is in the Bible doesn't always appear wholly relevant. I'm not saying Catholics don't stick to the Bible and see it as authoritative, for they certainly do. Just remember that Tradition is also a source of authority.

I've also seen people request the intercession of Mary at times when they are having trouble communing with God. For quite some time I could only plead for Mary to intercede on my behalf as surely God had rejected me.

 

[GoingByzantine]

The biggest thing to mention early in this thread is that Sola Scriptura is not the way of the Catholic Church (or any of the Early Christian Traditions still in existence), that is not to say that it is bad theology it is simply not what we believe. Sacred Scripture is the most important part of our Holy Tradition, the Church is probably the only other thing that comes close to SS in terms of importance. Catholics rely on Scripture in our day to day lives, and it forms the basis of the Liturgies of our Church in both the West and the East. However we also do have a number of "traditions" passed down via unwritten word, from the Apostolic Age. So when considering what we say, realize not all Catholic beliefs come straight out of scripture...but most are biblically inspired.

Here is a good link that talks more about intercessions based both in a scriptural understanding of the practice, and discussing the tradition of intercession going back to the "Early Church Fathers".

The Intercession of the Saints | Catholic Answers

 

[scraparcs]

But ask yourselves why we're separate. Why did the Protestant movement begin? Maybe because corrupt Catholic leaders were suppressing, even murdering those who didn't accept their very definitions...that popes ruled as kings and thought they had supreme authority to do things their way. When has the Catholic church tried to apologize for what they did? They killed more people than Hitler, yet when the pope tries to talk about peace, he would rather invite Muslims and Jews to the Vatican instead of trying to repair with their own Christian brothers and sisters.

I don't see how any of this was cause by anything other than people standing up to the church and their self-described ideas of authority and going against what is in the bible.

Many practices of the Church needed to change at that time, and many practices have changed. Selling indulgences was probably a bad idea. It just seems like schism has gone so far over time. I fear Christianity will be wholly shattered in a few hundred more years.

 

[Saucy]

Well that's the Holy Spirit's job. He is the one who intercedes and interprets for us when all we can offer are mumblings or don't know what to say. So I don't see how Mary would understand that. She isn't God. She can't read our thoughts, know our hearts, see the future or any such thing. She is not inside of us, a part of us, like the Holy Spirit is. She's just another soul in Heaven waiting.

When someone believes in something that is not in the bible, then it's best to assume that they added onto scripture or changed it to fit what they want it to say. Like, there is no verse that says Mary remained a virgin her whole life. There was no need for her to do that. She was not holy. She was an ordinary woman with needs and the angel of the Lord told Joseph it was okay to take her as his wife. The bible even says they had kids.

So that sounds like something added on...that Mary remained a virgin and we can pray through her as if she has special authority to receive prayers. There's no indication that she can. How can she interpret and understand the prayers of billions of Catholics? It sounds like someone respected Mary and have reverence for her and it took off from there. It was a tradition born from someone's desire that got out of control.

 

[Rhamiel]

Im confused.
where in the bible does it say that?

What about 1 Timothy 2:5?
For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Jesus Christ


Thank you!

true, Jesus is the one mediator

Jesus is true God and true Man and only He could restore the friendship between God and humanity that was broken by Adam and Eve

Mary is not a mediator like that
in Exodus 32 we see Moses intercede for the tribes of Israel after they made the idol of a golden calf

Exodus 32:9-11
9 “I have seen these people,” the Lord said to Moses, “and they are a stiff-necked people. 10 Now leave me alone so that my anger may burn against them and that I may destroy them. Then I will make you into a great nation.”

11 But Moses sought the favor of the Lord his God. “Lord,” he said, “why should your anger burn against your people, whom you brought out of Egypt with great power and a mighty hand?


is that not being a mediator of sorts?
but it is not the same as how Jesus is the mediator
whenever we ask anyone, be they a saint in heaven or a friend on earth, to pray for us, we are asking for an intercessor
but this is not replacing Christ
this is the Body of Christ acting along with Christ

 

[Saucy]

That's not the same example. Moses was a pastor of sorts leading his flock. God spoke to him to give him and his people direction. It's different now. We have the Holy Spirit living in us and that gap has been filled by Christ. It wasn't back then. We don't need Mary as any kind of interpreter or special connection to God.

 

[Lord Of The Forest]

Well that's the Holy Spirit's job. He is the one who intercedes and interprets for us when all we can offer are mumblings or don't know what to say. So I don't see how Mary would understand that. She isn't God. She can't read our thoughts, know our hearts, see the future or any such thing. She is not inside of us, a part of us, like the Holy Spirit is. She's just another soul in Heaven waiting.

The intercession of the saints is really like me asking you to pray for me.

The bible even says they had kids.

Highly contested.

So that sounds like something added on...that Mary remained a virgin and we can pray through her as if she has special authority to receive prayers. There's no indication that she can. How can she interpret and understand the prayers of billions of Catholics? It sounds like someone respected Mary and have reverence for her and it took off from there. It was a tradition born from someone's desire that got out of control.

Unlikely. Veneration of Mary can be found in some of the very early Church Fathers.

 

[GoingByzantine]

But ask yourselves why we're separate. Why did the Protestant movement begin? Maybe because corrupt Catholic leaders were suppressing, even murdering those who didn't accept their very definitions...that popes ruled as kings and thought they had supreme authority to do things their way. When has the Catholic church tried to apologize for what they did? They killed more people than Hitler, yet when the pope tries to talk about peace, he would rather invite Muslims and Jews to the Vatican instead of trying to repair with their own Christian brothers and sisters.

I don't see how any of this was cause by anything other than people standing up to the church and their self-described ideas of authority and going against what is in the bible.

I will not disagree that the Catholic Church is not partially at fault for the Reformation, in fact the Church has made a number of questionable decisions over time. The Church has a legitimate claim to being the oldest Christian Church in existence, and with this longevity comes a number of controversies as well. However there are also many positives that have resulted from the Church; some of the finest Christian minds have been produced in our faith from Francis of Assisi to Augustine. The Church Councils, the Creed, the canon of the Bible...all can be attributed to the Catholic Church. So while things like the Inquisition or the 4th Crusade are dark stains on our church, we also have many bright spots.

Today, Pope Francis invites Christian leaders from all over the World to the Vatican, Protestant or Catholic. He sent a video to Charismatic group here in the U.S. asking for Christian Unity and fellowship in Christ. Also at that prayer garden meeting, was the spiritual leader of the Second Largest Christian Church in the World (Bartholomew) and I believe some Protestant leaders as well. Bartholomew actually read from Sacred Scripture at the event.