The terminal decline of Christianity in New Zealand

mathclub

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"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 2 For by it the elders obtained a good report.
3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
...
6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him."


(Hebrews chapter 11.)


The onus is thus on you to note that you have come to a faith based environment, and that no one here owes it to anyone to try to prove the Bible.


The Bible is a given, and with respect I would prefer not to enter into a debate.

Then don't reply to a post trying to make points.

The bible is full of claims. Feel free to prove any of the supernatural ones are actually true.
 
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mathclub

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By 'decline' I suppose the OP refers to 'institutional religion'.

The fact remains that 2 or 3 believers in the Lord Jesus and in the power of His resurrection, meeting in His Name anywhere in the world for prayer and Scripture reading, form a majority with God.

When you use the words 'fact' and 'god' in the same sentence like that it makes me think you don't actually know what a fact is.

I don't wish to enter into a debate with you on this, despite the fact that I just replied to you on a public forum.

Thanks
 
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faroukfarouk

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Then don't reply to a post trying to make points.

The bible is full of claims. Feel free to prove any of the supernatural ones are actually true.

Scripture is self-authenticating. Awareness of this concept on a Christian site helps to resolve misunderstandings.
 
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mathclub

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Perhaps a little research into anti-theism .
It is a position opposed, by choice.
It is anti,in every sense of the word.there are forums where you can discuss your chosen views.

My response to you didn't mention god, religion or theism. I was challenging your claim that beliefs are a choice, by way of a simple question.

So why don't you stop deflecting and answer the question?

Can you choose to believe you can walk on air, and demonstrate that belief?
 
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Alithis

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My response to you didn't mention god, religion or theism. I was challenging your claim that beliefs are a choice, by way of a simple question.

So why don't you stop deflecting and answer the question?

Can you choose to believe you can walk on air, and demonstrate that belief?

I missed that question ...
It's a doozey ,very clever.... except for its major flaw. It is based on carnal belief of carnal law.
Not spiritual belief of spiritual law...
 
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mathclub

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I do not believe you are being honest in what your saying .
I choose to disbelieve you .(see what I did there?)

we see this principle at work every day .
a mother has her child arrested .. all the evidence and facts display the child's guilt . the mother chooses to believe her child is innocent regardless .

belief is a choice .
it is simply dishonest to deny that .
the gospel tells us the requirements of eternal life BELIEVE in the lord Jesus and REPENT of not believing .

your presently hold to your choice . no more , no less .

And here is your original post, clearly saying 'belief is a choice'. Not differentiating between different types of belief, and also with a nice non-'spiritual' example, whatever that means.

So now stop avoiding and simply answer my question. Can you choose to believe you can walk on air?
 
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Sectio Aurea

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By 'decline' I suppose the OP refers to 'institutional religion'.

It refers to Christianity specifically. Did you not read it?

The fact remains that 2 or 3 believers in the Lord Jesus and in the power of His resurrection, meeting in His Name anywhere in the world for prayer and Scripture reading, form a majority with God.

Two or three believers meeting for worship is simply just 2 or 3 believers meeting for worship.

The fact that they would form a minority would remain.

Copy/pasted from the link in the OP.

The New Zealand Catholic noted that there was 'a stunning rise' in the number of people declaring 'no religion', a total of 1.635 million citizens out of a total population of 4.24 million.

They remarked 'the number of census respondents who identified as 'no religion' or who didn't answer the religious affiliation question was more than the total number who identified as Christian.

This is believed to be the first time this has happened in New Zealand census history.'
 
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Alithis

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And here is your original post, clearly saying 'belief is a choice'. Not differentiating between different types of belief, and also with a nice non-'spiritual' example, whatever that means.

So now stop avoiding and simply answer my question. Can you choose to believe you can walk on air?
you don't see it yet.it's a puppet on a string question.
There are only two positions,for God,and thus a believer willing servant of his perfect and good will... or ...anti -God and so a servant of all that is opposed to perfect good.,tis that which you unwittingly serve by your mimic in the nature of your question .
Being that the question in other forms has already been asked.-the same essence the same attitude the same spirit asked "Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple,

6 And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.'
And the same question has been answered-
'7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.'

You see you are not immune from it as your led to think.
 
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mathclub

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you don't see it yet.it's a puppet on a string question.
There are only two positions,for God,and thus a believer.

Your claim (and example) weren't about belief in god.

My question was not about belief in god.

Stop your deflection and avoidance and just answer my simple question. Can you choose to believe you can walk on air?
 
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mathclub

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Of course I'm talking about belief in God.your on a Christian forum ,assume it.

This is demonstrably false when you yourself reference the belief of a mother over her child's guilt as your example.

Very dishonest of you to try and squirm out of it now.

Why will you not answer my simple question?

Just admit you were wrong that belief is a choice and we can leave it there if you want.
 
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Alithis

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This is demonstrably false when you yourself reference the belief of a mother over her child's guilt as your example.

Very dishonest of you to try and squirm out of it now.

Why will you not answer my simple question?

Just admit you were wrong that belief is a choice and we can leave it there if you want.
lol, i have answered it - you just don't like the answer .

your question, as I already stated reflects and even mimics the exact same attitude of satan at the time of the temptation.
"he took the Lord Jesus up on a high place and said if you are the son of god cast yourself down ,for it is written he shall give his angels chage over thee and they shal bear you up lest you dash your foot ....."

(ie - if you believe you can fly can you demonstrate that belief -different wording , same attitude.)
and the answer .. "thou shalt not tempt the Lord your God ."

you see your question adds further proof of the truth of the existence of both God and an adversary to all that is good . and like it or not , acknowledge it or not , we all serve one or the other ...
and will be held accountable .

what one chooses to believe and what one exercises faith in are two very different things .
I do not believe I can fly and will not place my faith in that non belief -so any other answer given would be conjecture ,even vain imaginings .
you say you believe there is no God .. will you pass through death to demonstrate it ?or is it only the belief of others that is allowed to be challenged that way ?

I am not here to endlessly debate little questions but to present the good news of the lord JESUS ..that who so ever believes on him shall not perish but have everlasting life .

but you ...? what is your motive ?
thus far displayed it is to endlessly debate with no beneficial outcome to offer any one .
for example .. should you convince me there is no God (you cannot ) what do you offer me in his absence .
 
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mathclub

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what one chooses to believe and what one exercises faith in are two very different things .
I do not believe I can fly and will not place my faith in that non belief -so any other answer given would be conjecture ,even vain imaginings .
you say you believe there is no God .. will you pass through death to demonstrate it ?or is it only the belief of others that is allowed to be challenged that way ?

I am not here to endlessly debate little questions but to present the good news of the lord JESUS ..that who so ever believes on him shall not perish but have everlasting life .

but you ...? what is your motive ?
thus far displayed it is to endlessly debate with no beneficial outcome to offer any one .
for example .. should you convince me there is no God (you cannot ) what do you offer me in his absence .

I didn't ask about 'exercises in faith', I asked if you could choose to believe you can walk on air.

It is a simple question, with a yes/no answer. Instead if answering you head off on a lengthy rant about unrelated topics.

Please clarify what your answer is to this simple question.
 
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Alithis

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Your asking to give reply to a hypothetical question about that which cannot naturally be.
The choice to believe and place faith in God is a choice to believe what already is,as is made evident to me daily.
Wisdom is to both have knowledge and then have the ability to put that knowledge into the most beneficial action .love ,is to do so to the greatest benefit of all others.
I do know that should I believe I can fly..it will not make me fly.
I know this because as a child I lept off high platforms and fell.
However.upon choosing and placing my faith in the lord Jesus I have tangibly experienced exactly what he promises .thus he has irrevocably proved himself to me and does so continuously .

The reverse question is.. if you choose disbelief of my testimony ,does that automatically make it false?no.
Your question attempted to excuse yourself .but it can't.
Your still accountable to God As surely as my material body is accountable to gravity.
 
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Blessedj01

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So override a survey showing stats for an entire country with one anecdote? Sounds like just the sort of fuzzy thinking that leads one to religion

I don't state the authority to "override" anything. I am entitled to my opinion, just as you are entitled to investing your faith in a survey. I do believe and I do see, on the streets of New Zealand, an upswing in the church whether it be universal or not. I count myself a small piece of the puzzle. I don't believe you have the right nor the reason to negatively categorize people's thought processes, nor question their reasons for believing.

Proverbs 9:10, "Fear of the Lord is the beginning of Wisdom..."

Psalm 14:1, "The fool says in his heart, there is no God..."
 
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