Interplanner
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too much of Mt 10 overlaps with Mt 24 for that, Rat. The language is the same; it is already occurring.
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Matthew 24, verse by verse - Fulfilled
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Interplanner
Newbie
re 10:
v17
v18
v19
v20
v21
v22
v23?
v34
v42
In addition you have to define terms of v3. They are raised in 1st century Judaism. It had a standard view of "this" age vs "Messiahs" age. Their question is: when will this age end, and how will yours start? They are not consciously asking questions about X000 years in the future and he doesn't answer like he is.
In a sense, you are right. It is the great time of distress, but you have only hinted that you mean that is distant future. In which case direct instructions to them would be of no use, and no one interjects: 'why are you talking to us as though we would be there?' They would be there!
Perhaps if you wrote out a bit more, more would fall into place.
v17
v18
v19
v20
v21
v22
v23?
v34
v42
In addition you have to define terms of v3. They are raised in 1st century Judaism. It had a standard view of "this" age vs "Messiahs" age. Their question is: when will this age end, and how will yours start? They are not consciously asking questions about X000 years in the future and he doesn't answer like he is.
In a sense, you are right. It is the great time of distress, but you have only hinted that you mean that is distant future. In which case direct instructions to them would be of no use, and no one interjects: 'why are you talking to us as though we would be there?' They would be there!
Perhaps if you wrote out a bit more, more would fall into place.
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I don't see any of the verses you referenced as being fulfilled in the past. They are future.
In verse 3 the disciples asked him 3 questions. Mt 24 with Luke 21;20-24 answers the 3 questions.
1. When shall these things be? That is the destruction of the temple
and the city. Answer is Luke 21:20-24
2&3. And what shall be the sign of thy coming and of the end of the
age? Answer Mt. 24:4-33.
The remainder of your post is just Interplanner ramblings.
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Interplanner
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You're not following about MT 10. It is the same language. They were already experiencing those things.
The line about 'fire on the earth' is about the DofJ in another context.
Do you not realize they were raised in Judaism and it has certain starting conceptions? The material was not written in Cleveland in 1990.
"Your coming" is wide open, and he says in v29 it is right after the DofJ.
"The end of the age" is open to several things in Judaism, because they, Josephus and Caiaphas (Jn 11, 18) knew of the risks the city was running at the end of the 490 years.
The rational approach to their questions is unified, not separated as you have done.
The line about 'fire on the earth' is about the DofJ in another context.
Do you not realize they were raised in Judaism and it has certain starting conceptions? The material was not written in Cleveland in 1990.
"Your coming" is wide open, and he says in v29 it is right after the DofJ.
"The end of the age" is open to several things in Judaism, because they, Josephus and Caiaphas (Jn 11, 18) knew of the risks the city was running at the end of the 490 years.
The rational approach to their questions is unified, not separated as you have done.
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MithrandirOlorin888
Junior Member
In a sense Preterists agree with the Pre-Tribers Camp. That Jesus could Return on the Clouds without anyone noticing.
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Interplanner
Newbie
Your posts don't say much about the actual passages. You don't seem interested in doing that.
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I would point out a rational approach since JESUS has not made his second coming, then the events that transpired in 70ad were not the ones Jesus spoke about in mat 24. To not believe that creates the dilemma everyone's in- either Jesus lied, forgot to G concise with the timing(as in now, centuries, millennia), or someone inspired a very wrong understanding of the teaching.
Since Jesus had no deceit in his mouth, he didn't lie. Since it seems more obvious that the abomination was not present PRIOR to a "great" tribulation that ensued 3.5 years after it was "set-up" (theirs no ONE single event/idea that everyone agrees as fulfilling that) and he didn't make his "return" after, the passage was not fulfilled and they (disciples) would know that.verses 15-31.
Hiroshima/Nagasaki would G much worse of a tribulation than what happened in 70ad, how about the 6 million killed during holocaust vs the estimated 1 million killed in 70ad.( voiding verses 21 and meaning that 15 couldn't have happened).
So this brings us up to 14- again even today we are just literally getting to the stage the gospel has reached the entire global world, so not applicable in 70ad.
Verse 13 indicates one being saved- but only after enduring to the end...what year were you born? Know anyone from 70ad, I don't either. I'm not twisting this verse but showing it's an indicator of continuing on with what else is included, which would G the great tribulation/abomination. They would see Jesus' second coming.
So on verse 8( the beginning of sorrows) indicates a start( prior verses 5-7) and that means we will see a finale or "finish", and does finish at verse 30.
So what verses "rationally" mean only actual 70ad events?
However back on point: as RIVERRAT did post Luke 21:20-24 would G better understood as applying to 70ad. This is because of verse 18 saying not 1 hair shall perish. Leaving the option for another "question" getting answered in 20-24. Which flows nicely into 25 of the 2nd coming. Verses 20-24 easily can G understood for the 70ad dofj.
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Interplanner
Newbie
[What's going on with the letter G? It seems to mean "be"]
The irrationality being addressed is that the subject of Israel's destruction in 70 has been simmering since ch 21's parable of the tenants. It is in 22's parable of the wedding invites, and was just mentioned a few verses before their questions in 23. Why on earth Jesus would fly off to the distant future about all these things he said were just about to happen is irrational. In Judaism, you were taught there were two ages: "this" vs "Messiahs." Their question is that: when does this one end and Messiah's begin. They knew the temple, the city, the old covenant, the Law were all due to end. Messiah's age had a new covenant and the Spirit would be poured out in it, and the confusion about Abraham's promises would be cleared up.
To fly off gives me the impression of futurism, literalism and D'ism that they find sound bytes in the Bible but don't really let it speak for itself. The more they do that, the less credible they are.
As I have mentioned in a thousand posts, Mt 24A (to v29) is set in 1st century Judea. We know this from the parallels to Mt 10, from the conditions addressed in the text, etc. The meaning of the 'end of the age' to someone raised in Judaism at that time needs to be addressed. It was understood in Judaism that the 490 years of Dan 9 were ending, even if the last week was irregular; for ex., Heb 9, Josephus in JW, Caiaphas in Jn 11.
'Gaia' often means just the land of Israel in the gospels, not the whole world.
Paul said twice that the whole world had been informed of the gospel; Col 1, I Tim 3.
You might check Gideon's chart on Dan 9 if you haven't ever heard this rendering. also the Zens summary of the 'time of unsurpassed trouble.' It is relative to Israel; he meant the experience would be worse than 586 BC.
Mt24B is then global, or universal--the final day of God's judgement. We must relate the two. Their understanding was that the final day would be 'right after' the DofJ. Most of the rest of Mt24B conveys this, but allows for delay expressly and in the parable of the attentive servants. 2 Pet 3 explains the delay in exactly the same way.
NT eschatology is therefore either near-future and Judean OR distant-future and universal. Meaning: there are no Judean details necessary for the final day of judgement. You will not find them in Rom 2, 8, I Cor 15, Heb 9, 2 Pet 3. And also meaning, we now know it is distant future by the simple fact that time has gone on.
BW documents that within 100 years early church fathers tried to assimilate a distant future return by revisiting OT prophecy and the Rev and coming up with the futurist system with Judean-based details in that distant future. He does good work, and makes it clear it is the ECFs position. I don't think you can find it in the NT.
The major church historian Latourrette writes that Mt24 itself reflects an unresolved position as though finalized after the DofJ when the world did not end. But of course we know that the original instructions were given during Jesus' final week of ministry and have to have that 'feel' to them.
Luke's material, mostly transcribed from Paul, is so intent on protecting Paul from connection to rebel forces in Judea and from Galileans that his several references to the DofJ seem to be unaware that a distant future would be an allowance. It is all resolved at the DofJ for him. There are other passages of Paul's as you may know that sound like the end of the world is quite soon.
The irrationality being addressed is that the subject of Israel's destruction in 70 has been simmering since ch 21's parable of the tenants. It is in 22's parable of the wedding invites, and was just mentioned a few verses before their questions in 23. Why on earth Jesus would fly off to the distant future about all these things he said were just about to happen is irrational. In Judaism, you were taught there were two ages: "this" vs "Messiahs." Their question is that: when does this one end and Messiah's begin. They knew the temple, the city, the old covenant, the Law were all due to end. Messiah's age had a new covenant and the Spirit would be poured out in it, and the confusion about Abraham's promises would be cleared up.
To fly off gives me the impression of futurism, literalism and D'ism that they find sound bytes in the Bible but don't really let it speak for itself. The more they do that, the less credible they are.
As I have mentioned in a thousand posts, Mt 24A (to v29) is set in 1st century Judea. We know this from the parallels to Mt 10, from the conditions addressed in the text, etc. The meaning of the 'end of the age' to someone raised in Judaism at that time needs to be addressed. It was understood in Judaism that the 490 years of Dan 9 were ending, even if the last week was irregular; for ex., Heb 9, Josephus in JW, Caiaphas in Jn 11.
'Gaia' often means just the land of Israel in the gospels, not the whole world.
Paul said twice that the whole world had been informed of the gospel; Col 1, I Tim 3.
You might check Gideon's chart on Dan 9 if you haven't ever heard this rendering. also the Zens summary of the 'time of unsurpassed trouble.' It is relative to Israel; he meant the experience would be worse than 586 BC.
Mt24B is then global, or universal--the final day of God's judgement. We must relate the two. Their understanding was that the final day would be 'right after' the DofJ. Most of the rest of Mt24B conveys this, but allows for delay expressly and in the parable of the attentive servants. 2 Pet 3 explains the delay in exactly the same way.
NT eschatology is therefore either near-future and Judean OR distant-future and universal. Meaning: there are no Judean details necessary for the final day of judgement. You will not find them in Rom 2, 8, I Cor 15, Heb 9, 2 Pet 3. And also meaning, we now know it is distant future by the simple fact that time has gone on.
BW documents that within 100 years early church fathers tried to assimilate a distant future return by revisiting OT prophecy and the Rev and coming up with the futurist system with Judean-based details in that distant future. He does good work, and makes it clear it is the ECFs position. I don't think you can find it in the NT.
The major church historian Latourrette writes that Mt24 itself reflects an unresolved position as though finalized after the DofJ when the world did not end. But of course we know that the original instructions were given during Jesus' final week of ministry and have to have that 'feel' to them.
Luke's material, mostly transcribed from Paul, is so intent on protecting Paul from connection to rebel forces in Judea and from Galileans that his several references to the DofJ seem to be unaware that a distant future would be an allowance. It is all resolved at the DofJ for him. There are other passages of Paul's as you may know that sound like the end of the world is quite soon.
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The scripture that I referenced speak for themselves and need no commentary from me and certainly no commentary from you.
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Interplanner
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OK, so back to what it means. Do you think the disciples were raised in Judaism?
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Matthew 24 is fulfilled!!! It is mostly the destruction of Jerusalem and Israel being removed from the land. This is also what Revelation in mostly about from chapters 1-18 for the most part!
This is the problem futurism has, as I see it...but also the problem full preterism has.
Futurism doesn't hold to Matthew 24 being fulfilled and (for the most part), is looking for this to happen in the future. Luke's account of the Olivet discourse is much clearer and shows this was accomplished in 70 AD.
Full preterism's error is in holding that Jesus returned..and he did *EXCEPT* Jesus did not return bodily (as He will in the future)...He returned in judgment of Jerusalem in 70 AD...that is the misunderstanding of Matthew 24 and how it applies.
Matthew 25 that is the era we are in today! In the two parables Jesus gave in Matthew 25 are making that point!
Matthew 25:1-13 is The Parable of Ten Virgins. Jesus is the bridegroom in this parable the 10 virgins are awaiting bridegroom. We know this is after the destruction of Jerusalem because Jesus has spoken to Israel/Jerusalem's judgment. Now He says at Matthew 25:1:
“Then the kingdom of heaven will be comparable to ten virgins, who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom.
This is the church doing Christ's work, and awaiting His return! I think it's clear that the church is the bride of Christ!
Matthew 25:14-30 is The Parable of the Talents...and in verse 14, Jesus is "the man gone on a long journey". It speaks of the fact that He has gifted the church with talents, and He will return to see what the church has done with what He has gifted us with to spread the gospel. Jesus will judge his church!
After Jesus gives these two parables, He speak of His BODILY return in judgement of the world. Matthew 25:31:
31 “But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne.
The point is the Matthew 24 is about Israel/Jerusalems destruction and exile from the land. Matthew 25 is the church carrying out Christ mission until He returns.
How this isn't seen is amazing!
This is the problem futurism has, as I see it...but also the problem full preterism has.
Futurism doesn't hold to Matthew 24 being fulfilled and (for the most part), is looking for this to happen in the future. Luke's account of the Olivet discourse is much clearer and shows this was accomplished in 70 AD.
Full preterism's error is in holding that Jesus returned..and he did *EXCEPT* Jesus did not return bodily (as He will in the future)...He returned in judgment of Jerusalem in 70 AD...that is the misunderstanding of Matthew 24 and how it applies.
Matthew 25 that is the era we are in today! In the two parables Jesus gave in Matthew 25 are making that point!
Matthew 25:1-13 is The Parable of Ten Virgins. Jesus is the bridegroom in this parable the 10 virgins are awaiting bridegroom. We know this is after the destruction of Jerusalem because Jesus has spoken to Israel/Jerusalem's judgment. Now He says at Matthew 25:1:
“Then the kingdom of heaven will be comparable to ten virgins, who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom.
This is the church doing Christ's work, and awaiting His return! I think it's clear that the church is the bride of Christ!
Matthew 25:14-30 is The Parable of the Talents...and in verse 14, Jesus is "the man gone on a long journey". It speaks of the fact that He has gifted the church with talents, and He will return to see what the church has done with what He has gifted us with to spread the gospel. Jesus will judge his church!
After Jesus gives these two parables, He speak of His BODILY return in judgement of the world. Matthew 25:31:
31 “But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne.
The point is the Matthew 24 is about Israel/Jerusalems destruction and exile from the land. Matthew 25 is the church carrying out Christ mission until He returns.
How this isn't seen is amazing!
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MithrandirOlorin888
Junior Member
Luke and Matthew record to completely separate speeches given to different Audiences at different times. This is where people on both sides stumble.
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Interplanner
Newbie
Rat,
then you would see at once that they asked the standard question of Judaism: how to relate this age and Messiahs. The same question as Jn 12:34. Do you see that?
then you would see at once that they asked the standard question of Judaism: how to relate this age and Messiahs. The same question as Jn 12:34. Do you see that?
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Interplanner
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MithR
The differences are so minute as to not be worth bothering about. Or try this: as a % what amount is the same?
The differences are so minute as to not be worth bothering about. Or try this: as a % what amount is the same?
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That is just wrong!
The first point in which you're in error is Lukes account is taken from eyewitnesses. Read Luke 1:1-3.
Secondly read the accounts leading up to Jesus giving the Olivet Discourse and it's UNDENIEABLE this is the same event.
Matthew's gospel is written to a Jewish audience, which is why Matthew quotes so many OT prophecies.
Luke's account is written to a Gentile audience so Luke doesn't focus so much on prophetic fulfillment.
You're incorrect...it's that simple! Read Luke 20 & 21, then read Matthew 22, 23, and 24.
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The question isn't why Jesus would just fly of into the future. It's did Jesus give them the answers "they" desired or the answers they needed to preach. Their is a night and day difference.
Look you keep referencing that we need to understand Judaism thinking for "this and messiah age", is this the same thinking where people denied Christ as the messiah because he didn't come to set up his kingdom? Is this the same thinking that had the disciples unsure he was the real messiah, until his reappearance/resurrection? Is this the same thinking that NOONE understood he was to get crucified and not set up a kingdom at that time? If so, then he answered the question that "flew" into the future, because they were wanting to know about his kingdom setup. Using your grounds of refuting.
Col1:6. τοῦ παρόντος εἰς ὑμᾶς καθὼς καὶ ἐν παντὶ τῷ κόσμῳ καὶ ἐστὶν καρποφορούμενον καθὼς καὶ ἐν ὑμῖν ἀφ᾽ ἡς ἡμέρας ἠκούσατε καὶ ἐπέγνωτε τὴν χάριν τοῦ θεοῦ ἐν ἀληθείᾳ
Col 1:6
which has come to you, as indeed in the whole world it is bearing fruit and INCREASING-as it also does among you, since the day you heard it and understood the grace of God in truth,
The "increasing" means still growing. Math24:14 again would signify entire world, Jesus' understanding of "in all the world" is what counts, not the disciples misconstrued thought.
But again, you can not tell us that "the end has came".
Your 1 Timothy 3:16 does reference a "world" of "their" knowledge, but does not imply the entire world. The word is the same, not the implied meaning your grasping at( I know theirs a better suited word for what I'm describing, I just can't think of it right now).
Jesus could not have meant "time of unsurpassed trouble" as being worse than 586bc if the world was not ending in 70ad. To incur that their will not G tribulation worse than 70 ad means he lied, Hiroshima/Nagasaki events with the holocaust events would easily surpass the 70ad events.
That's the reason "futurists" don't see the 70ad events as meeting that prophecy, Jesus made the prophecy. He doesn't lie, and deceit isn't found in his mouth. To make a claim that we can see today as not remaining true nullifies either the thought fulfillment or Jesus not lying. And if I need to get specific as to which ones
V29, 21, 15, 14. You'll explain till your blue in the face, I'll say go look at current events and tell me how their coincidently aligning up with reproducing this exact prophecy and the rest of them, you feel is already past.
And if G is creating issues for you, ignore it. It's Something I've done for over 24years.
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