Why do Arminians...

Skala

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The point is that election is about being CHOSEN for special privilege and service.

False. We were chosen to be holy and blameless before him. That's called salvation.

God elected believers.

False. He elected "before the foundation of the world". Nobody was a believer before the world was created. Nobody existed yet.

According to Romans 8 and Acts 13:48 and 2 Thess 2:13 and many other places, the reason you are a believer is because you were elected.

Praise God for his electing grace, amirite?
 
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stan1953

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He elected "before the foundation of the world". Nobody was a believer before the world was created. Nobody existed yet.

What scripture shows that premise. The closest I can find is Eph 1:3-5, see below, but that is about God choosing those that He knew were IN CHRIST, which is basically the same thing Paul teaches in Rom 8:28-30
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,
According to Romans 8 and Acts 13:48 and 2 Thess 2:13 and many other places, the reason you are a believer is because you were elected.

I don't know what verse in Rom 8 you are referring to, but Acts 13:48 is about Eternal Life and not salvation. You can only be appointed to eternal life once you believe. 2 Thess 2:13 also does not show election, but reiterates what Paul taught again, in Rom 8:28-30.
I don't really understand why RT doesn't use ALL scripture that relates to soteriology?
 
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stan1953

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I defend it because the words mean the exact same thing. Do U even Thesaurus bro?

The question was HOW, not WHY.
I have no idea what having a Thesaurus has to do with anything, but anyone on this forum can access one online.
 
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Marvin Knox

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..Calvinism goes too far and makes the claim that God is the cause of man's faith. Without any support from Scripture... ................God does not choose who will believe, nor is He the cause of said belief. If He were, there would be clear Scripture on that............... .........In fact, Scriptures the exact opposite idea; that man is urged to believe...............Is there any clear verse that actually states that God changes heart so man can believe the gospel? I haven't found any.

You know two people could go round and round with scriptures matched tit for tat on the issue of the Trinity as well. It probably could not be "proved clearly from any one scripture. But there's no doubt to any born again Christian which person is in the right. It's call systematic theology and it's because often there is more of an overall package of truth than just one particular text.

Really any number of other areas of disagreement could be cited - like salvation by baptism for instance.

Jesus chided folks for not understanding the signs of the times - even though any open minded believer must admit that the Lord did not make absolutely as clear as He could have over the years.

He chided Nicodemus for not understanding the concept of spiritual deadness and the need to be born again. But that is doctrine arrived at through comparing concept with concept and various scriptures with scriptures rather than one very clear statement concerning it.

(Heck - even now - with the help of the Holy Spirit - many don't seem to get spiritual deadness and the need for regeneration in order to understand the things of God.)

Here are a few scriptures and concepts leading to the need for God's grace to be extended in a special way to those whom the Father promised the Son before time began.

These are just a few scriptures pounded out "off the cuff". I'm sure I could do a better job with a paper on the subject. But then I'm betting that you know all of the different scriptures already and just don't want to align yourself with what a great many Christians consider truth in these things.

[FONT=&quot]1 Corinthians 2:14 "But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.[/FONT]"
[FONT=&quot]
John 6:44 and 65 ……”No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.”…………. And He was saying, “For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.”[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Matthew 16:17......."And Jesus said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven."[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Philippians 1:29......"For to you it has been granted for Christ’s sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake".[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Acts 11:18 ............ "When they heard this, they quieted down and glorified God, saying, “Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life.”[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Acts 16:14 ......" A woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple fabrics, a worshiper of God, was listening; and the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul.[/FONT]"

[FONT=&quot]2 Thessalonians 2:13 “But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning FOR salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.”

[/FONT] Acts 13:48 “When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.”

Romans 8:30 ……” and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.” (They are justified by faith which comes after special calling - this can't be the universal call since all who receive that call are not justified through faith.)

I wouldn't want to say for sure why you won't believe what the scriptures clearly teach unless you care to tell me. Is it because you somehow feel that God's special act of grace would violate your freedom? Is it because you feel that it would be unfair of God to do this for some and not for others?

Discuss passionately afterward individual points of theology. Doing that I understand and commend. But do that only after subscribing to the general truth of the concepts for Heaven's sake or you may find at the seat of judgment for teachers that you have been fighting God in these matters.

I assure you brother that this isn't meant in any way as a "flame". I really do want to know why you won't align yourself with the Holy Spirit on these overall concepts. :)

AFTER A LITTLE CONSIDERATION - I'M GOING TO EDIT THIS POST TO SAY THAT IT IS UNFAIR TO SINGLE ANY ONE PERSON OUT FOR THIS CRITICISM. FreeGrace2 - IT JUST ENDED UP BEING YOU BECAUSE USUALLY WE RESPOND TO ANOTHER POST AND YOURS WAS HANDY I SUPPOSE.

BUT THESE IDEAS I SHARED WOULD BE APPROPRIATELY RESPONDED TO BY ANYONE OF THE
(for want of a better word) ARMINIAN PERSUASION. MY APOLOGIES AGAIN FOR SEEMING TO SINGLE YOU OUT.
 
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nobdysfool

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Please point out the specific verse that supports your opening statement about faith being the result of God's choice. I cannot find anything close to supporting that statement in the passage here, nor any other passage.

I never said there was. I made a statement, then I dealt with the common objection to election unto salvation. Sorry I confused you, it wasn't intentional.

Why should it "have to say" something about choosing.

But there is this insistence that it must be stated clearly in scripture, or it isn't true. I just showed that what you claim isn't supported by this scripture, either alone, or contextually.

The statement is very clear about who God saves; believers. In fact, it emphasizes God's pleasure in who He saves. It should be obvious that when God does something (saves someone) that pleases Himself, He is clearly making a choice to do what pleases Him.


That's called eisegesis. You're making the verse say more than what it does.

But Calvinism goes too far and makes the claim that God is the cause of man's faith. Without any support from Scripture.

Really? How about: Heb 12:2 KJV Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Whoops! I guess there is scripture for that!

God does not choose who will believe, nor is He the cause of said belief. If He were, there would be clear Scripture on that.

I know it's more difficult to see when you have to actually dig it out of the Word, from multiple places, and put it together to see it.

In fact, Scriptures the exact opposite idea; that man is urged to believe.

Of course he is, especially the Believers who are encouraged not only to believe but to grow in their faith. Do you not realize that the Scriptures were written and given to Believers?

Just dealt with that, and anyone is free to choose to accept or reject the reality of 1 Cor 1:21 about what God is pleased to CHOOSE to do, which is to save those who believe.

What they should not do is accept a claim that is derived from eisegesis. Nowhere in that passage does it say that God chooses believers on the basis of their belief. It just isn't there.

Is there any clear verse that actually states that God changes heart so man can believe the gospel? I haven't found any.

What would be the purpose of God changing a man's heart, if it wasn't so he could believe? Especially since faint comes by hearing and hearing (comes) by the Word of God. Who can hear and understand and believe but those whose heart and ears are opened to hear?
 
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Skala

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What scripture shows that premise. The closest I can find is Eph 1:3-5, see below, but that is about God choosing those that He knew were IN CHRIST, which is basically the same thing Paul teaches in

So you affirm that people were "in Christ" before the world was created?

If so, do you consistently hold the following?

-that there are some people who are born into this world who are not in Christ?
-that God created many humans who were not "in Christ", knowing that they would ultimately end up in hell
-since people are "in Christ" or "not in Christ" at the moment of birth, there is nothing they can do to change that status (otherwise God's knowledge would be proven incorrect)
 
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stan1953

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To elect someone is to choose someone.
It's the same thing.

No not quite. I vote to choose my local MP. He is only elected IF the majority of people in my riding choose to vote for him/her as well. He then becomes my MP-Elect.
I chose my wife, I chose my savior, I chose where I live.

It is NOT the same thing unless you refuse to accept the difference because it calls into question your RT POV.
 
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stan1953

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So you affirm that people were "in Christ" before the world was created?

If so, do you consistently hold the following?

-that there are some people who are born into this world who are not in Christ?
-that God created many humans who were not "in Christ", knowing that they would ultimately end up in hell
-since people are "in Christ" or "not in Christ" at the moment of birth, there is nothing they can do to change that status (otherwise God's knowledge would be proven incorrect)

No, and this is a disingenuous question. I confirm that God KNEW everything before He created our universe, and I assume so do you, so why ask this knowing better?
Nobody is in Christ until they accept Him as their savior. We are NOT Muslim who believe as such.
You insist on using semantics and equivocal language instead of admitting to seeing what the Word of God says. It is no different than what the Jews tried to do to Jesus in Mark 3:20-35
 
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FreeGrace2

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False. We were chosen to be holy and blameless before him. That's called salvation.
That's an opinion, not fact.

Who does the "us" refer to in Eph 1:4, unbelievers whom God chose for salvation? Of course not. The first person plural pronoun includes Paul and his audience, which is believers.

He elected "before the foundation of the world". Nobody was a believer before the world was created. Nobody existed yet.
Shall we deny that God is omniscient? Seems you're suggesting that God can't know who will believe, so He had to choose who will. That isn't Biblical.

According to Romans 8 and Acts 13:48 and 2 Thess 2:13 and many other places, the reason you are a believer is because you were elected.
The word 'haireomai' in 2 Thess 2:13 doesn't mean elect. It means to choose, or pick out. And Acts 1:48 isn't even about God doing anything. It's about the Gentiles who arranged themselves to hear Paul the next Sabbath. See v.44.

Praise God for his electing grace, amirite?
Yes, Uamrite regarding God unconditionally electing all believers for special privilege and service, but no, Uamnot regarding God electing who will believe.
 
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FreeGrace2

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You know two people could go round and round with scriptures matched tit for tat on the issue of the Trinity as well. It probably could not be "proved clearly from any one scripture. But there's no doubt to any born again Christian which person is in the right. It's call systematic theology and it's because often there is more of an overall package of truth than just one particular text.
The discussion is about God causing one's faith. There are no texts that say that, or suggest that.

Jesus chided folks for not understanding the signs of the times - even though any open minded believer must admit that the Lord did not make absolutely as clear as He could have over the years.
Not sure of your point here. Suggesting that the Bible isn't all that clear on some things?

(Heck - even now - with the help of the Holy Spirit - many don't seem to get spiritual deadness and the need for regeneration in order to understand the things of God.)
Do you know why? The Holy Spirit only helps when not being grieved (Eph 4:30) or quenched (1 Thess 5:19). Or, only when the believer is being filled with the Spirit (Eph 5:18) or is walking by means of the Spirit (Gal 5:16).

Here are a few scriptures and concepts leading to the need for God's grace to be extended in a special way to those whom the Father promised the Son before time began.

These are just a few scriptures pounded out "off the cuff". I'm sure I could do a better job with a paper on the subject. But then I'm betting that you know all of the different scriptures already and just don't want to align yourself with what a great many Christians consider truth in these things.

[FONT=&quot]1 Corinthians 2:14 "But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.[/FONT]"
[FONT=&quot]
John 6:44 and 65 ……”No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.”…………. And He was saying, “For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.”[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Matthew 16:17......."And Jesus said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven."[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Philippians 1:29......"For to you it has been granted for Christ’s sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake".[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Acts 11:18 ............ "When they heard this, they quieted down and glorified God, saying, “Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life.”[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Acts 16:14 ......" A woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple fabrics, a worshiper of God, was listening; and the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul.[/FONT]"

[FONT=&quot]2 Thessalonians 2:13 “But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning FOR salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.”

[/FONT] Acts 13:48 “When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.”

Romans 8:30 ……” and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.” (They are justified by faith which comes after special calling - this can't be the universal call since all who receive that call are not justified through faith.)
There is no doubt that God has already extended His hand of grace to mankind. But that is the problem. RT doesn't think that God did extend His hand to everyone; but only some.

I wouldn't want to say for sure why you won't believe what the scriptures clearly teach unless you care to tell me.
I don't believe what Calvinists claim, because I can't find any verses that say what Calvinists claim. In fact, I have found verses that say the opposite of what Calvinists claim.

Is it because you somehow feel that God's special act of grace would violate your freedom?
How absurd!

Is it because you feel that it would be unfair of God to do this for some and not for others?
God is perfectly fair to everyone. Rom 11:32.

I assure you brother that this isn't meant in any way as a "flame". I really do want to know why you won't align yourself with the Holy Spirit on these overall concepts. :)
I believe I have aligned myself with the Holy Spirit. I keep asking for verses that say what RT claims, and none have been provided. I've provided many verses that clearly say what I believe.

BUT THESE IDEAS I SHARED WOULD BE APPROPRIATELY RESPONDED TO BY ANYONE OF THE [/B](for want of a better word) ARMINIAN PERSUASION. MY APOLOGIES AGAIN FOR SEEMING TO SINGLE YOU OUT.
I'm not Arminian. I argue against some of their views just as vigorously as I do with Calvinists and some of their ideas.
 
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FreeGrace2

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That's called eisegesis. You're making the verse say more than what it does.
Without some evidence why should I believe your claim?

Really? How about: Heb 12:2 KJV Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Whoops! I guess there is scripture for that!
Why would I accept that Heb 12:2 says that God is the cause of our faith. btw, I should have been more clear and used the word "belief". "Faith" is a noun, and what we believe is ALL from God. But the verb 'believe' is an action that man does before God saves. And 1 Cor 1:21 does SAY that.

Of course he is, especially the Believers who are encouraged not only to believe but to grow in their faith. Do you not realize that the Scriptures were written and given to Believers?
Yep, most of it. But John's gospel was specifically for unbelievers. 20:31.

What they should not do is accept a claim that is derived from eisegesis. Nowhere in that passage does it say that God chooses believers on the basis of their belief. It just isn't there.
Yes, 2 Thess 2:13 says:
But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

What would be the purpose of God changing a man's heart, if it wasn't so he could believe?
So that the believer would be able to understand God's word (1 Cor 2:14) and thereby grow in grace and knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ (2 Pet 3:18).
 
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FreeGrace2

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To elect someone is to choose someone.

It's the same thing.
Hold on. Is the opposte equally true; that to choose someone is to elect someone? Of course not.

When I was a kid, there wa a favorite game called "Red Rover". People were chosen to run to the opposite line. What that election, or just a simple choice?

Were your socks elected this morning, or just selected out of a drawer full of socks?
 
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stan1953

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I'm not Arminian. I argue against some of their views just as vigorously as I do with Calvinists and some of their ideas.

This is an important point IMO. I don't see anyone on here claiming to be Arminian but MANY claim to be Calvinist. Funny how labels have to accompany those who eisegete scripture.
 
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Hammster

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Hold on. Is the opposte equally true; that to choose someone is to elect someone? Of course not.

When I was a kid, there wa a favorite game called "Red Rover". People were chosen to run to the opposite line. What that election, or just a simple choice?

Were your socks elected this morning, or just selected out of a drawer full of socks?

Therefore, God’s chosen ones, holy and loved, put on heartfelt compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness, and patience, (Colossians 3:12 HCSB)

Care to guess which word is translated as "chosen"?
 
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Marvin Knox

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Marvin Knox said, “BUT THESE IDEAS I SHARED WOULD BE APPROPRIATELY RESPONDED TO BY ANYONE OF THE (for want of a better word) ARMINIAN PERSUASION.”

FreeGrace2 said, “
I'm not Arminian. I argue against some of their views just as vigorously as I do with Calvinists and some of their ideas.”

This is an important point IMO. I don't see anyone on here claiming to be Arminian but MANY claim to be Calvinist. Funny how labels have to accompany those who eisegete scripture.

This is all very disingenuous to say the least. I went out of my way to say "for want of a better word" - Arminiian persuasion.

It is obvious to everyone here on this thread that this discussion from the first post onward has been a discussion from two not perfectly defined but generally defined points of view regarding God's choice of who He will enlighten in a special way when the gospel comes to him. Also other related concepts usually believed by Calvinists have been discussed all along. From the first post the discussion has centered around why "Arminians" ("for want of a better word") criticize Calvinists (for want of a better word) concerning things related to election and predestination.

I know that any honest thinking Christian can look at those scriptures I posted and see that there is ample ground for at least trying to systematize these concepts as the Calvinists do - whether they sometimes go too far or not.

I don't subscribe to all of the Calvinistic suppositions just as you do not for the Arminian - as I have interjected all along.

I have decided that some here are not interested in determining truth but only in bolstering their positions at all costs even if it means being disingenuous.

Quite frankly I consider that those who refuse to acknowledge the truth of those scriptures I listed and at least admit that the "Calvinist" concepts are at least founded in scripture are disingenuous to say the least.

I will add here that disingenuous posts can easily slip over into what I consider dishonesty to win an argument.

That is the opinion I now find myself holding concerning some on this thread and I will now disengage from the discussion for good. I will not be an enabler for my brothers committing what I feel is sin.

This thread has run it's course anyway IMO!

I love to discuss theology. There isn't much I like better. If I thought that I could add to someones knowledge or open someone's mind, as it were, I would continue. I don't believe however that I can.

I've enjoyed myself but I draw the line at discussing scripture with dishonest Christians.
:wave:
 
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OzSpen

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Marvin,

Who in this thread are you referring to with your statement: 'dishonest Christians'? Are you saying that FreeGrace2 is a dishonest Christian?

Oz


Marvin Knox said, “BUT THESE IDEAS I SHARED WOULD BE APPROPRIATELY RESPONDED TO BY ANYONE OF THE (for want of a better word) ARMINIAN PERSUASION.”

FreeGrace2 said, “
I'm not Arminian. I argue against some of their views just as vigorously as I do with Calvinists and some of their ideas.”

This is all very disingenuous to say the least. I went out of my way to say "for want of a better word" - Arminiian persuasion.

It is obvious to everyone here on this thread that this discussion from the first post onward has been a discussion from two not perfectly defined but generally defined points of view regarding God's choice of who He will enlighten in a special way when the gospel comes to him. Also other related concepts usually believed by Calvinists have been discussed all along. From the first post the discussion has centered around why "Arminians" ("for want of a better word") criticize Calvinists (for want of a better word) concerning things related to election and predestination.

I know that any honest thinking Christian can look at those scriptures I posted and see that there is ample ground for at least trying to systematize these concepts as the Calvinists do - whether they sometimes go too far or not.

I don't subscribe to all of the Calvinistic suppositions just as you do not for the Arminian - as I have interjected all along.

I have decided that some here are not interested in determining truth but only in bolstering their positions at all costs even if it means being disingenuous.

Quite frankly I consider that those who refuse to acknowledge the truth of those scriptures I listed and at least admit that the "Calvinist" concepts are at least founded in scripture are disingenuous to say the least.

I will add here that disingenuous posts can easily slip over into what I consider dishonesty to win an argument.

That is the opinion I now find myself holding concerning some on this thread and I will now disengage from the discussion for good. I will not be an enabler for my brothers committing what I feel is sin.

This thread has run it's course anyway IMO!

I love to discuss theology. There isn't much I like better. If I thought that I could add to someones knowledge or open someone's mind, as it were, I would continue. I don't believe however that I can.

I've enjoyed myself but I draw the line at discussing scripture with dishonest Christians.
:wave:
 
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OzSpen

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This is an important point IMO. I don't see anyone on here claiming to be Arminian but MANY claim to be Calvinist. Funny how labels have to accompany those who eisegete scripture.
Stan,

I may not have stated it in this thread, but I've indicated in other threads, that I'm a Reformed Arminian in my theological position.

Oz
 
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stan1953

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Stan,

I may not have stated it in this thread, but I've indicated in other threads, that I'm a Reformed Arminian in my theological position.

Oz

Now that you mention it I do recall seeing that recently but you would be the exception.
:thumbsup:
 
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stan1953

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Marvin,
Who in this thread are you referring to with your statement: 'dishonest Christians'? Are you saying that FreeGrace2 is a dishonest Christian?
Oz

I'm at a loss as well, as to who he is referring to as dishonest.
 
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