Some Guidance Please - Baptism vs. Depth

[Dordrecht]

My wife and I have been members of a reformed church for about 6 years. We have come to see that the Church doesn't teach anything that is wrong to our understanding, but the teaching is very, very shallow, focuses on human relationships and charity at the expense of theology proper, and is focused on seekers at the expense of the membership's Christian growth. Additionally, the members' attitudes about the faith follow suit. The church knows that my wife and I desire more depth, including the whole counsel of God, and we have offered to volunteer in a ministry that would add depth, but there is no interest.

We have been visiting another church in the area that we find much deeper and edifying, which we believe will instruct our children more in the way they should go, and which is filled with people that seem more committed to the faith. The problem is that they take a position contrary to us on the issue of baptism; specifically, the recipients, meaning, and mode of baptism.

With this in mind, do you think it is better for us to switch churches in spite of this difference regarding baptism? Does a tinged belief about a secondary topic within an otherwise godly church win over a church having a stellar statement of faith that feeds its members spiritual baby food?

Your opinions would be appreciated.

 

[twin1954]

My wife and I have been members of a reformed church for about 6 years. We have come to see that the Church doesn't teach anything that is wrong to our understanding, but the teaching is very, very shallow, focuses on human relationships and charity at the expense of theology proper, and is focused on seekers at the expense of the membership's Christian growth. Additionally, the members' attitudes about the faith follow suit. The church knows that my wife and I desire more depth, including the whole counsel of God, and we have offered to volunteer in a ministry that would add depth, but there is no interest.

We have been visiting another church in the area that we find much deeper and edifying, which we believe will instruct our children more in the way they should go, and which is filled with people that seem more committed to the faith. The problem is that they take a position contrary to us on the issue of baptism; specifically, the recipients, meaning, and mode of baptism.

With this in mind, do you think it is better for us to switch churches in spite of this difference regarding baptism? Does a tinged belief about a secondary topic within an otherwise godly church win over a church having a stellar statement of faith that feeds its members spiritual baby food?

Your opinions would be appreciated.

Only you can decide what for you is most important. How much uncomfortableness are you willing to put up with? I can tell you by experience that whatever it is that you find disturbing or are in disagreement with will become a thorn you can't get rid of in either church.

I was once a Baptist in a Presbyterian church and my advice is that you ought to prayerfully study the issue from both sides and keep an open heart. I will tell you that it isn't a matter of what the Bible teaches but one of how we interpret and approach what the Bible teaches. Baptists and Pedobaptists approach the issue from different perspectives. Seek to find out which perspective is truly Biblical with the light of the Spirit of God guiding you. Once you have come to a definitive conclusion ask yourself if you can now let the issue drop?

I could never worship in a shallow church no matter what the denomination. But I also know that even in a sound church whatever you think might be wrong will seem to be a constant focus. Whatever it is it will seem to come up often and will be a trial for you. Perhaps knowing that going in will help guard against it but be aware of it because it will fester in your mind if you don't and you will become dissatisfied in whichever place you choose.

 

[AMR]

Does a tinged belief about a secondary topic within an otherwise godly church win over a church having a stellar statement of faith that feeds its members spiritual baby food?

If you are Reformed, how is the covenantal relationship of your children to the church a secondary topic? This is an extremely important matter.

Have you spoken with your local session about your concerns? What was the outcome of that discussion? Is your current church one of the NAPARC churches?

 

[Dordrecht]

Thank you for your comments Twin1954. I know there will be a constant twinge whatever we decide.

AMR, our children were baptized in a prior church, and so from a paedobaptist perspective, a covenantal relationship to the church universal is intact. When I said secondary, I meant that the issue of baptism is not an issue that separates those in the faith from those outside of the faith, and isn't one that bars togetherness in corporate worship, IMO. I didn't mean to insinuate that the differences aren't important; in fact, the fact that it is important is why I posted here.

A formal conversation with the leadership of our current church has not yet taken place, but will shortly. Our decision won't be final until that occurs, and we will be open to any corrective actions they would commit to; nevertheless, my impromptu conversational comments with the pastor and assistant pastor about the dearth of meat in the past were met with disinterest, and confirmation was given that the shallowness is intentional for the benefit of seekers, and my pursuits toward leading my own study were not frowned upon, but strong indications were given that the content of such a study would be provided to me. That would defeat the purpose of the venture.

I'm interested in getting people's scripturally-informed opinion based only on the conundrum we currently face, and not inadvertently skewed by responders' preferences about which type of church we end up in, which is why I've not mentioned which type of church we're in or which type we're considering, so at this time I'd prefer not to answer the NAPARC question. I would be interested to know, though, how my answer would inform your response.

 

[AMR]

If your current church is "Reformed" I would assume it is one of the conservative NAPARC churches. If not, then the issues you describe, if accurate, are not unexpected. Are there NAPARC churches available in your surrounding area that you can attend and consider for membership versus this anti-paedo baptistic church? You show your label to be Presbyterian, so I assume you understand what Presbyterianism means as relates to confessionalism, church polity, regulative principles of worship, and all the other accompaniments.

From the confessional basis of conservative Presbyterianism, the baptism of infants as taught and practiced Confessionally by the Reformed is viewed particularly under the whole rubric of church-discipline, a crucial mark of the true, faithful church. For Presbyterians, it is a sin to neglect the sacrament of baptism for our children. You proffer a desire to attend a church that is anti-paedobaptistic. I naturally have to wonder, brother, why you would participate in the sins of others unless there are some significant exigent circumstances that prevent your attending a proper Presbyterian church. Your statement that you are now covenanted with the church universal is not persuasive, nor Scriptural in my opinion, as relates to the matter of baptism. Why would a member of the bride of Christ not associate himself with a proper vestige (in particular to this topic one that is paedobaptistic) of that bride? Your view, given a Presbyterian communion is one of covenant breaking, not covenant keeping. I say this will all charity as I believe you are misinformed about the importance of this sacrament and its relationship to the Presbyterian church militant, not to mention your role as spiritual leader of your family.

I am a wee bit uncomfortable having this discussion in this forum as I see it a matter of discussion with our Presbyterian forum to avoid the usual debate about baptism with our Baptist brethren. I want to avoid this sort of debate as it is reserved for other non-safe haven CF forums.

I hope I have given you some of the answers you are seeking from my questions. Honestly, when I saw the title of this thread I entered in expecting a discussion about just how deep someone must be immersed to be baptized. Little did I know what was really at issue, but by then I was in for a penny, in for a pound.

 

[Dordrecht]

Hmmm. You mentioned that I show my "label to be Presbyterian". I took a look at my public profile and didn't see that. Where did you see that?

 

[Dordrecht]

Ah. Nevermind. It was an icon rather than text. Busted.

 

[AMR]

No problem, Dordrecht.

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

From the confessional basis of conservative Presbyterianism, the baptism of infants as taught and practiced Confessionally by the Reformed is viewed particularly under the whole rubric of church-discipline, a crucial mark of the true, faithful church. For Presbyterians, it is a sin to neglect the sacrament of baptism for our children.

Before my son was even born I wanted to have him baptized while still an infant. I am a Presbyterian, a theologically "conservative" one. I am not a member of a Presbyterian Church, in fact the only Church I have ever been an official member of is one where I am related to the preacher and he took it upon himself to elect me to membership. The only Presbyterian Church I know of anywhere near where I live is a PCUSA Church. While the particular Church may lean more towards the conservative side, it is officially tied with PCUSA and things have a way of changing. I have thought about it, but because of everything critical I have read online from other sources about PCUSA, neither me nor my wife are members, and not comfortable with having my son baptized in a PCUSA Church (some go so far as to call it an apostate Church)....I don't know what to do. What might you do in my shoes?

 

[AMR]

Before my son was even born I wanted to have him baptized while still an infant. I am a Presbyterian, a theologically "conservative" one. I am not a member of a Presbyterian Church, in fact the only Church I have ever been an official member of is one where I am related to the preacher and he took it upon himself to elect me to membership. The only Presbyterian Church I know of anywhere near where I live is a PCUSA Church. While the particular Church may lean more towards the conservative side, it is officially tied with PCUSA and things have a way of changing. I have thought about it, but because of everything critical I have read online from other sources about PCUSA, neither me nor my wife are members, and not comfortable with having my son baptized in a PCUSA Church (some go so far as to call it an apostate Church)....I don't know what to do. What might you do in my shoes?

Brother,

Have your son baptized at the PCUSA church. The sacrament of baptism, when performed by a lawfully ordained minister in a lawful manner is not contingent on the doctrinal status of the one performing the sacrament. It is God who gives validity to baptism (the sign and the seal) through the Trinitarian formula (which is from the Word of God) and the lawfully ordained pastor

You should covenant yourself with this church despite its shortcomings, now or anticipated in the future, as it appears no other church is available to you. That said, I assume you have also looked around unsuccessfully for various NAPARC churches within a sixty-minute drive of your home (I am sure you can give God the time for the drive on the Sabbath).

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

Brother,

Have your son baptized at the PCUSA church. The sacrament of baptism, when performed by a lawfully ordained minister in a lawful manner is not contingent on the doctrinal status of the one performing the sacrament. It is God who gives validity to baptism (the sign and the seal) through the Trinitarian formula (which is from the Word of God) and the lawfully ordained pastor

You should covenant yourself with this church despite its shortcomings, now or anticipated in the future, as it appears no other church is available to you. That said, I assume you have also looked around unsuccessfully for various NAPARC churches within a sixty-minute drive of your home (I am sure you can give God the time for the drive on the Sabbath).

Thank you brother
On second thought, I believe you are correct
I receive the needed correction
I need the grace to act on it and follow through with consistency
I humbly covet your prayers, not just for me but my family.
God bless and preserve you and yours
In Christ,
ALY

 

[AMR]

Kind words and a wonderful attitude that blessed me this evening. You are welcome.
I will lift up prayers for you and yours.

 

[heymikey80]

I need to comment on this.

My home church is also fairly surface on theology. But not on the Gospel. Rock solid there. The reason is our surroundings. We have to point to historical reality in preference to deep theology because that is where the fight is in our area.

I spent a year teaching the known historical background and contruction of the NT letters to high school class. I think it helps.

Remember that your kids' challenges may not be what yours are. I think schools here teach kids to be hypocrites. Beware the public school, closely care for your kids.