Do you have the feeling that the Rapture is just around the corner???

[OzSpen]

It was Pre-Tribulationism that Skala was saying is novel.

As you have demonstrated the non-dispensational chialist position is historically orthodox, as is the non-chialist position, what is completely novel is the dispensational position which is chialist and more than that because of a hermeneutic imposed upon Scripture have placed the 1 Thess eschaton before the tribulation, I'm not sure from where they derive the other points of theology to be able to place this passage here, but then I'm not invested in that system and find it to be more and more theologically lacking the more I study other overarching theological systems.

I think the reason why post-tribulationism has always been the norm is that for the first three centuries the Church lived it, for the next 1500 years we taught our people about the persecution and tribulation of those three centuries.

Yes, he was illustrating (with Hollywood comparisons) pre-trib millennialism (chialism).

The early church fathers were promoters of a millennium and thus were millennialists (but historical millennialists, post-tribulation) rather than amillennialists, but Augustine promoted the latter.

Since you are an Aussie, you probably are aware that here in Australia there are Baptists, Christian Brethren, and many Pentecostal/charismatic groups that are stunchly pre-trib rapture promoters. In fact, it was the only view I knew for the first 20 years of my Christian life.

Oz

 

[Keachian]

Yes, he was illustrating (with Hollywood comparisons) pre-trib millennialism (chialism).

So why did you choose to disagree with him by citing men who don't hold the position that he was saying is novel?

The early church fathers were promoters of a millennium and thus were millennialists (but historical millennialists, post-tribulation) rather than amillennialists, but Augustine promoted the latter.

Justin Martyr in his dialogue with Trypho says that both Chialism and non-Chialism were to be found in the Church at the time (chap 80)

Since you are an Aussie, you probably are aware that here in Australia there are Baptists, Christian Brethren, and many Pentecostal/charismatic groups that are stunchly pre-trib rapture promoters. In fact, it was the only view I knew for the first 20 years of my Christian life.

Surprisingly I have only very recently run into those with a pre-tribulationary bent since starting at Seminary, however this is from talking with Baptists from a few generations before mine and students at the Seminary, the Lecturers at Morling are predominantly Post-mill or amill as far as I'm aware, and it is this that from my understanding is the historical Baptist view in Australia and even the driving force behind our emphasis on Mission. I need to read a bit more on the subject though including From Woolloomooloo to Eternity and From Five Barely Loaves

 

[OzSpen]

So why did you choose to disagree with him by citing men who don't hold the position that he was saying is novel?

While I understood he was discussing pre-trib, I thought his inference was broader than that.

Justin Martyr in his dialogue with Trypho says that both Chialism and non-Chialism were to be found in the Church at the time (chap 80)

I'd be interested in how you obtained the Chiliasm and non-Chiliasm from Justin. In Justin Martyr's dialogue with Trypho (ch 80), he states:

But I and others, who are right-minded Christians on all points, are assured that there will be a resurrection of the dead, and a thousand years in Jerusalem, which will then be built, adorned, and enlarged, [as] the prophets Ezekiel and Isaiah and others declare.​

This is supporting millennialism (chiliasm).

Surprisingly I have only very recently run into those with a pre-tribulationary bent since starting at Seminary, however this is from talking with Baptists from a few generations before mine and students at the Seminary, the Lecturers at Morling are predominantly Post-mill or amill as far as I'm aware, and it is this that from my understanding is the historical Baptist view in Australia and even the driving force behind our emphasis on Mission. I need to read a bit more on the subject though including From Woolloomooloo to Eternity and From Five Barely Loaves

I'm from an earlier generation and the two pastors at the Baptist church where I was raised in the 1960s in Qld were both pretrib premillennialists in their eschatology. This was well before Hal Lindsey and Late Great Planet Earth hit the Christian bookstores. My parents were saved at the 1959 Billy Graham Crusade in Australia and they were convinced pretribers - because the pastors were.

However, since my seminary training I've been most influenced by the posttrib of George Eldon Ladd. But I'm open to an examination of amillennialism. I do not think it is an issue worth breaking fellowship over.

 

[Keachian]

I'd be interested in how you obtained the Chiliasm and non-Chiliasm from Justin. In Justin Martyr's dialogue with Trypho (ch 80), he states:

But I and others, who are right-minded Christians on all points, are assured that there will be a resurrection of the dead, and a thousand years in Jerusalem, which will then be built, adorned, and enlarged, [as] the prophets Ezekiel and Isaiah and others declare.​

This is supporting millennialism (chiliasm).

Near the start of the same he says;

I admitted to you formerly, that I and many others are of this opinion, and [believe] that such will take place, as you assuredly are aware; but, on the other hand, I signified to you that many who belong to the pure and pious faith, and are true Christians, think otherwise.​

Typho has just asked whether Chialism is the orthodox position and Justin replies saying that both Chialism and non-Chialism are orthodox. The position that he distinctly denies in this chapter is that of full preterism.

I'm from an earlier generation and the two pastors at the Baptist church where I was raised in the 1960s in Qld were both pretrib premillennialists in their eschatology. This was well before Hal Lindsey and Late Great Planet Earth hit the Christian bookstores. My parents were saved at the 1959 Billy Graham Crusade in Australia and they were convinced pretribers - because the pastors were.

However, since my seminary training I've been most influenced by the posttrib of George Eldon Ladd. But I'm open to an examination of amillennialism. I do not think it is an issue worth breaking fellowship over.

Chialism in and of itself is not something I want to break fellowship over, and dispensationalism is something I'd rather not have to break fellowship over either, however I find that if not explicitly implicitly dispensationalism doesn't give enough impetus to evangelise to certain groups and doesn't even attempt to make sense of large portions of Scripture just because they're not "for the Church" as such I feel it is dangerous at best and heretical at worst.

 

[OzSpen]

Chialism in and of itself is not something I want to break fellowship over, and dispensationalism is something I'd rather not have to break fellowship over either, however I find that if not explicitly implicitly dispensationalism doesn't give enough impetus to evangelise to certain groups and doesn't even attempt to make sense of large portions of Scripture just because they're not "for the Church" as such I feel it is dangerous at best and heretical at worst.

Why don't you start a thread to deal with this and let us know of it in the Baptist thread.

I don't have enough time to go through Justin on Trypho to as I'm too busy deconstructing deconstruction in my thesis.

 

[xxmnbvcxx]

I don't think it's true.
My friend said God has something big to do in his life in the coming years.
He is a sincere christian. He devotes everything to God. He walks with God so close.
So if this is true, the Rapture would not in this month.

 

[jsimms615]

We should live in such a way that if he does come back by the end of the month or day we are ready

 

[miamited]

I just have this feeling (I am kinda iffy if it's from the Lord/Holy Spirit or not) that we could be going home before the month is over. And, several other believers across the internet seem to have the same feeling. Just wondering what you guys think. Not trying to get any validation or anything just wanted to see what you guys on Christian Forums feel.

Hi Stephen,

Yes, I believe the rapture is just around the corner, but...

My problem is that I can't see far enough ahead to know how far I am from that corner.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

 

[Yekcidmij]

The 'rapture' comes from this passage:


After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. (1 Thessalonians 4:17)

In the Latin bible 'caught up' is rapiemur, from whence we get the term 'rapture'.

Therefore it's hard to imagine an evangelical Christian who does not believe in the rapture. The disagreement would be over when, pre-trib, post-trib etc.

God Bless You

That passage reads like it's talking about the resurrection and consummation of the age to come, not the "rapture" as the word is usually meant in evangelical discourse.

 

[JoshuaDaryl]

The pre trib rapture was given to increase church attendance , offering people "fire insurance salvation" the truth is the church will go thru the tribulation, it will be purified by fire, God will winnow the wheat, separate the sheep and goats, read these scriptures:

Matthew 25:31-46
New International Version (NIV)
The Sheep and the Goats

31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
◄ 1 Peter 1 ►
New International Version
1Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,

To God’s elect, exiles scattered throughout the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, 2who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood:

Grace and peace be yours in abundance.

Praise to God for a Living Hope

3Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade. This inheritance is kept in heaven for you, 5who through faith are shielded by God’s power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time. 6In all this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials. 7These have come so that the proven genuineness of your faith—of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire—may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed. 8Though you have not seen him, you love him; and even though you do not see him now, you believe in him and are filled with an inexpressible and glorious joy, 9for you are receiving the end result of your faith, the salvation of your souls.

10Concerning this salvation, the prophets, who spoke of the grace that was to come to you, searched intently and with the greatest care, 11trying to find out the time and circumstances to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing when he predicted the sufferings of the Messiah and the glories that would follow. 12It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves but you, when they spoke of the things that have now been told you by those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven. Even angels long to look into these things.

Be Holy

13Therefore, with minds that are alert and fully sober, set your hope on the grace to be brought to you when Jesus Christ is revealed at his coming. 14As obedient children, do not conform to the evil desires you had when you lived in ignorance. 15But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do; 16for it is written: “Be holy, because I am holy.”a

17Since you call on a Father who judges each person’s work impartially, live out your time as foreigners here in reverent fear. 18For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your ancestors, 19but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect. 20He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake. 21Through him you believe in God, who raised him from the dead and glorified him, and so your faith and hope are in God.

22Now that you have purified yourselves by obeying the truth so that you have sincere love for each other, love one another deeply, from the heart.b 23For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God. 24For,

“All people are like grass,
and all their glory is like the flowers of the field;
the grass withers and the flowers fall,
25but the word of the Lord endures forever.”c
And this is the word that was preached to you.

◄ Matthew 13 ►
New International Version
The Parable of the Sower

1That same day Jesus went out of the house and sat by the lake. 2Such large crowds gathered around him that he got into a boat and sat in it, while all the people stood on the shore. 3Then he told them many things in parables, saying: “A farmer went out to sow his seed. 4As he was scattering the seed, some fell along the path, and the birds came and ate it up. 5Some fell on rocky places, where it did not have much soil. It sprang up quickly, because the soil was shallow. 6But when the sun came up, the plants were scorched, and they withered because they had no root. 7Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up and choked the plants. 8Still other seed fell on good soil, where it produced a crop—a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown. 9Whoever has ears, let them hear.”

10The disciples came to him and asked, “Why do you speak to the people in parables?”

11He replied, “Because the knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. 12Whoever has will be given more, and they will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them. 13This is why I speak to them in parables:

“Though seeing, they do not see;
though hearing, they do not hear or understand.
14In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah:

“ ‘You will be ever hearing but never understanding;
you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.
15For this people’s heart has become calloused;
they hardly hear with their ears,
and they have closed their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts
and turn, and I would heal them.’a
16But blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear. 17For truly I tell you, many prophets and righteous people longed to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it.

18“Listen then to what the parable of the sower means: 19When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in their heart. This is the seed sown along the path. 20The seed falling on rocky ground refers to someone who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. 21But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away. 22The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful. 23But the seed falling on good soil refers to someone who hears the word and understands it. This is the one who produces a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown.”

The Parable of the Weeds

24Jesus told them another parable: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. 25But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. 26When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared.

27“The owner’s servants came to him and said, ‘Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?’

28“ ‘An enemy did this,’ he replied.

“The servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’

29“ ‘No,’ he answered, ‘because while you are pulling the weeds, you may uproot the wheat with them. 30Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.’ ”

The Parables of the Mustard Seed and the Yeast

31He told them another parable: “The kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed, which a man took and planted in his field. 32Though it is the smallest of all seeds, yet when it grows, it is the largest of garden plants and becomes a tree, so that the birds come and perch in its branches.”

33He told them still another parable: “The kingdom of heaven is like yeast that a woman took and mixed into about sixty poundsb of flour until it worked all through the dough.”

34Jesus spoke all these things to the crowd in parables; he did not say anything to them without using a parable. 35So was fulfilled what was spoken through the prophet:

“I will open my mouth in parables,
I will utter things hidden since the creation of the world.”c
The Parable of the Weeds Explained

36Then he left the crowd and went into the house. His disciples came to him and said, “Explain to us the parable of the weeds in the field.”

37He answered, “The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. 38The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the people of the kingdom. The weeds are the people of the evil one, 39and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.

40“As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. 41The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. 42They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Whoever has ears, let them hear.

The Parables of the Hidden Treasure and the Pearl

44“The kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field. When a man found it, he hid it again, and then in his joy went and sold all he had and bought that field.

45“Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a merchant looking for fine pearls. 46When he found one of great value, he went away and sold everything he had and bought it.

The Parable of the Net

47“Once again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net that was let down into the lake and caught all kinds of fish. 48When it was full, the fishermen pulled it up on the shore. Then they sat down and collected the good fish in baskets, but threw the bad away. 49This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous 50and throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

51“Have you understood all these things?” Jesus asked.

“Yes,” they replied.

52He said to them, “Therefore every teacher of the law who has become a disciple in the kingdom of heaven is like the owner of a house who brings out of his storeroom new treasures as well as old.”

A Prophet Without Honor

53When Jesus had finished these parables, he moved on from there. 54Coming to his hometown, he began teaching the people in their synagogue, and they were amazed. “Where did this man get this wisdom and these miraculous powers?” they asked. 55“Isn’t this the carpenter’s son? Isn’t his mother’s name Mary, and aren’t his brothers James, Joseph, Simon and Judas? 56Aren’t all his sisters with us? Where then did this man get all these things?” 57And they took offense at him.

But Jesus said to them, “A prophet is not without honor except in his own town and in his own home.”

58And he did not do many miracles there because of their lack of faith.

 

[JoshuaDaryl]

1 Corinthians 3:10By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as a wise builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should build with care. 11For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

The church will be tried by fire. God will have a spotless bride. Why will he have tried even his disciples, nearly all of whom died martyrs, and not try us ? Why from history to the present will he allow his children to go thru trial and murder and not you ? What makes us so special ? Scriptures over and over speak of trial and tribulation then Christ comes not before. He only returns once, on a white horse with sword in hand. Study to show thyself approved, a workman need not be ashamed rightly divining the word of truth. Do not take any mans word for it, study and search the scriptures yourself, show me of pre trib rapture, I know all the very few verses used, I was the proverbial Baptist church kid, I grew up under pre trib rapture theology, and the Left Behind books, and I believed till I researched for myself.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

PERSONAL OPINION:

The Rapture of the church isn't in sight - yet. the main indication to me would be that the "Visible Church" in the World is like "Building materials" scattered, but not joined together in ANY sort of unity of vision/purpose.

The formation of the "Perfect (corporate) Man", described in Ephesians 4, would be the most convincing sign of the end of the age.

 

[lismore]

The Lord is coming soon.

If you even look at the number of Christians being martyred for their faith now in various parts of the globe, believers being burned to death and crucified. Or all the evil in the world. The Lord cannot delay long.

Just a little longer to allow people a final opportunity to repent, because the Lord does not will that any should perish. Then the judgement.

So, we should be ready for his return and make the most of every opportunity because time is short.

 

[classicalhero]

There is no Biblical prophecy to be fulfilled before the Rapture to occur, so it is imminent. "Even so, come quickly."

 

[Nord Christian]

If we look at the world today, it seems like the rapture could come at any time. There is such immorality, that, instead of ridiculed is praised by a good percentage of world followers/ and unbelievers.

I turn on the TV this morning, and see the first openly gay NFL player
ever picked. Not to mention a pic of him and his bf kissing on the lips.
I couldn't avert my eyes in time to miss it! This commentator goes
"the world is changing" in a positive tone. He's right about that. It's
changing for the worse!

What was once shameful is now good. I recall some years ago when UFC or ultimate fighting was something an adult could order on PPV. Now it's on nationwide sports channels, where kids can watch it! That's brutal!

If anyone has seen any UFC action, it's barbaric and disgusting.

Yeah, only we as mortals can take wild guesses as to when the rapture will come. My guess is that can't be far off.

 

[lismore]

If we look at the world today, it seems like the rapture could come at any time. There is such immorality, that, instead of ridiculed is praised by a good percentage of world followers/ and unbelievers.

Immorality among people is nothing new, neither is the mercy of God to forgive all who come to him. We have all sinned and all who call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

What is now new is that immorality is officially sanctioned by nations, churches and governments. National leaders and church leaders standing up saying and putting into law that immorality is now moral. Evil has been officially labelled as good and good as evil.

It is this IMO that means that the return of the Lord and the judgement of God are at the door.

What can we do? Repent, walk more closely with God, stand firm, share the good news of the gospel with others. Live each day as though it was our last here, because one day soon the trumpet will sound.

God Bless You

 

[98cwitr]

really hope it happens within my earthly lifetime, would love to experience that.

 

[classicalhero]

The bible is constant that the righteous will never suffer from the wrath of God, which is why we won't be going through the tribulation since it is a time when God's wrath is poured out. When God judged the whole world via a flood he only judged the guilty and he saved the righteous from the judgement. God did the same thing with Sodom and Gomorrah, he judged the two cities but got the righteous Lot and his family out of the way of his judgement. 2 Peter 2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

 

[Yekcidmij]

The bible is constant that the righteous will never suffer from the wrath of God, which is why we won't be going through the tribulation since it is a time when God's wrath is poured out. When God judged the whole world via a flood he only judged the guilty and he saved the righteous from the judgement. God did the same thing with Sodom and Gomorrah, he judged the two cities but got the righteous Lot and his family out of the way of his judgement. 2 Peter 2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

Do you think people will be saved during the tribulation? If so, will they still experience the tribulation?

 

[tacdon]

The Lord Jesus in Matthew 24 said that when we see the fig tree blossom, we know that the time is near, even at the door.

Having seen the blossom of the fig tree we know that the Lord's return is at the door.

Therefore, as the sands have almost fallen, we should make the most of every opportunity to witness and to serve the cause of the Kingdom.

That is only if you believe the fig tree is Israel.