Duel Covenant theology

LilLamb219

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Closed for Staff Review

This thread needs some work. :doh:

Give staff some time to go through this please. Thank you for your patience.

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LilLamb219

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MOD HAT ON UPDATE:

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This thread is being re-opened!! (About time, right?)

Here's what happened. I did a thread clean as best as I could to remove the postings that were addressing other posters instead of anything to do with the topic (s).

I did not clean up the slightly off topic postings so I'd appreciate it if you just got back on track discussing the original topic of Dual Covenant Theology. If tangents begin to happen, create a new thread and plop in a link so members can visit it if they choose.

We now have the new Sticky for Larger Images and I would very much appreciate it if members would use it from now on.

This isn't a perfection solution, I understand, but for now, this will have to do :) Happy discussing, everyone!

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daq

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How many believe that God has two kingdoms?

Someone once said that he was of "the House of the Gentiles". When asked where that concept is found in the Scripture his reply was "the book of Paul". Perhaps there are indeed two kingdoms but the one is used to test the patience and love of the other. :)
 
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HannibalFlavius

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Perhaps there are indeed two kingdoms but the one is used to test the patience and love of the other. :)


''Perhaps there are indeed a male and a female, but one is used to test the patience and love of the other..:)''
 
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daq

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Oh no, it wasn't sarcasm, just my way of saying it was a reputable statement.
The body is apparently likened to a kingdom and the man in his house is the inner kingdom:

Romans 7:14-25 KJV
14. For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15. For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16. If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17. Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21. I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22. For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23. But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25. I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.


I see two covenants here, (which things are an allegory, Galatians 4:22-26).

Horeb -vs- Sinai
Sarah -vs- Hagar
Jerusalem of above -vs- Jerusalem of below
Mind of Messiah -vs- Mind of the Flesh

Now put off your ornamental turban so that the Most High may know what to do with you!
(And bney Yisrael plucked off their turbans from mount Horeb). :D
 
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HannibalFlavius

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Oh no, it wasn't sarcasm, just my way of saying it was a reputable statement.

I had written something and deleted it Daq, I often do that and just leave a ,'' Meh'' behind.

It wasn't responding to you.

I liked both of your posts.
 
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visionary

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Gxg (G²);65043532 said:
That message is thankfully something that takes care of things for both Jew and Gentile, one in Messiah :)
IF Torah will be taught from Jerusalem in the messianic age, then why would anyone think that gentiles should be taught anything less now? Why only are gentiles to worship God in 7 ways and deprive them of all the blessings made for mankind?
 
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Hoshiyya

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IF Torah will be taught from Jerusalem in the messianic age, then why would anyone think that gentiles should be taught anything less now? Why only are gentiles to worship God in 7 ways and deprive them of all the blessings made for mankind?

Good question. And why did God not send a Moses to every generation and nation ?
 
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Hoshiyya

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The line of the Messiah was at stake.

...What ?

The Messiah's genealogy has literally nothing to do with this issue. At all.

God could have made his message and law universal if he wished, but he confined it to the Israelites and after most of Israel disappeared, confined it to the even smaller people, the Jews. He could have sent angels or prophets or spoken by his own voice to any and every people and town and nation and generation throughout time and space but did not.
 
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visionary

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...What ?

The Messiah's genealogy has literally nothing to do with this issue. At all.

God could have made his message and law universal if he wished, but he confined it to the Israelites and after most of Israel disappeared, confined it to the even smaller people, the Jews. He could have sent angels or prophets or spoken by his own voice to any and every people and town and nation and generation throughout time and space but did not.
He didn't confine it to just the Israelites. All who came to the foot of the mountain, Israelites and multitude were equally blessed to hear God speak to them. Even the Talmud says it was spoken in 70 languages so that all the world heard.
 
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mercy1061

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He didn't confine it to just the Israelites. All who came to the foot of the mountain, Israelites and multitude were equally blessed to hear God speak to them. Even the Talmud says it was spoken in 70 languages so that all the world heard.

Not to mention Rahab the Canaanite.
 
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Hoshiyya

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He didn't confine it to just the Israelites. All who came to the foot of the mountain, Israelites and multitude were equally blessed to hear God speak to them. Even the Talmud says it was spoken in 70 languages so that all the world heard.

"70 languages" Well now you're appealing to Jewish tradition, which I thought you rejected. And of course, there is much more than 70 languages in the world.

Anyway, he did (at one point in time) speak to a few people, to all who came to the foot of a small mountain located at a specific point in space, and perhaps he spoke in multiple languages - then what?

People in - the aforementioned - Oslo and Hong Kong had no idea about this. God could have spoken to everyone ever, every person and generation and nation throughout time, but did not. Never did he speak a word to the Maori or Hawaiians or Eskimoes or Finns or Maasai or Mongols or Teutons or Tibetans, and I could keep going.

" All who came to the foot of the mountain"
And how exactly were Eskimoes or the Cherokee or the Vikings or the Chinese supposed to know that there was a mountain in Sinai they were supposed to go to?

To repeat my previous point, God could have sent angels or prophets or spoken by his own voice to any and every people and town and nation and generation throughout time and space but did not. Most people throughout history have never even heard of YHWH, Yeshua (not even the gentilized Kristos), Torah, Moses, or any of these things.
 
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etZion

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To repeat my previous point, God could have sent angels or prophets or spoken by his own voice to any and every people and town and nation and generation throughout time and space but did not. Most people throughout history have never even heard of YHWH, Yeshua (not even the gentilized Kristos), Torah, Moses, or any of these things.

God chose Israel to be a light to the nations.

If the Torah is not meant for the nations, ultimately, Israel is both worthless and pointless from the view of the nations, "no need and no care". Thus Israel was called as a servant, to bring forth the glory of God to the nations and that glory is seen in both the Messiah and God's righteous law. (Deut 4 - the nations would see and convert to God). The fact that God allowed gentiles to stand at the mountain and receive Torah with Israel, also proves it was not exclusive to Israel, if so, those gentiles should have been kicked out. Very simple logic.

There is no personal relationship with God in a Noachide covenant, at least nothing that we see promised in the Messiah and the blessings of the New Covenant. The reality of God's revelation since then, is so much greater, that everything before it, pales in comparison.
 
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mercy1061

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"70 languages" Well now you're appealing to Jewish tradition, which I thought you rejected. And of course, there is much more than 70 languages in the world.

Anyway, he did (at one point in time) speak to a few people, to all who came to the foot of a small mountain located at a specific point in space, and perhaps he spoke in multiple languages - then what?

People in - the aforementioned - Oslo and Hong Kong had no idea about this. God could have spoken to everyone ever, every person and generation and nation throughout time, but did not. Never did he speak a word to the Maori or Hawaiians or Eskimoes or Finns or Maasai or Mongols or Teutons or Tibetans, and I could keep going.

" All who came to the foot of the mountain" And how exactly were Eskimoes or the Cherokee or the Vikings or the Chinese supposed to know that there was a mountain in Sinai they were supposed to go to?

To repeat my previous point, God could have sent angels or prophets or spoken by his own voice to any and every people and town and nation and generation throughout time and space but did not. Most people throughout history have never even heard of YHWH, Yeshua (not even the gentilized Kristos), Torah, Moses, or any of these things.


Romans 1
18 What is revealed is God’s anger from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people who in their wickedness keep suppressing the truth; 19 because what is known about God is plain to them, since God has made it plain to them. 20 For ever since the creation of the universe his invisible qualities — both his eternal power and his divine nature — have been clearly seen, because they can be understood from what he has made. Therefore, they have no excuse; 21 because, although they know who God is, they do not glorify him as God or thank him. On the contrary, they have become futile in their thinking; and their undiscerning hearts have become darkened.
 
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