What was Paul's Theology?

[BigDaddy4]

I've never understood why some people dislike Paul so much as he preached the gospel of JC and to my knowledge his words do not disagree with the gospels. You cannot take out one part of the Bible and leave the rest. You have to take it all.

Amen! From Galatians 1:1-11:

Paul, an apostle—sent not from men nor by a man, but by Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead— 2 and all the brothers and sisters with me,
To the churches in Galatia:
3 Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ, 4 who gave himself for our sins to rescue us from the present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father, 5 to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you to live in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7 which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse! 9 As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God’s curse!
10 Am I now trying to win the approval of human beings, or of God? Or am I trying to please people? If I were still trying to please people, I would not be a servant of Christ.
11 I want you to know, brothers and sisters, that the gospel I preached is not of human origin. 12 I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.

 

[ananda]

"If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true." - Jn 5:31

 

[Joseph474]

Amen! From Galatians 1:1-11:

Paul, an apostle—sent not from men nor by a man, but by Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead— 2 and all the brothers and sisters with me,
To the churches in Galatia:
3 Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ, 4 who gave himself for our sins to rescue us from the present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father, 5 to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you to live in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7 which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse! 9 As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God’s curse!
10 Am I now trying to win the approval of human beings, or of God? Or am I trying to please people? If I were still trying to please people, I would not be a servant of Christ.
11 I want you to know, brothers and sisters, that the gospel I preached is not of human origin. 12 I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.

Paul says that he got the revelation from Yeshua, how do you know he was right?? When anti-Torah things are found in Paul's words?

 

[ananda]

Paul says that he got the revelation from Yeshua, how do you know he was right?? When anti-Torah things are found in Paul's words?

We can ask such questions about Joseph Smith, Mary Baker Eddy, etc. ... but Pharisee Paul is untouchable.

 

[Der Alte]

We can ask such questions about Joseph Smith, Mary Baker Eddy, etc. ... but Pharisee Paul is untouchable.

Paul is not untouchable, he is unimpeachable. All attempts to discredit him fail miserably.

 

[Der Alte]

Paul says that he got the revelation from Yeshua, how do you know he was right?? When anti-Torah things are found in Paul's words?

Such as?

 

[IchoozJC]

We can ask such questions about Joseph Smith, Mary Baker Eddy, etc. ... but Pharisee Paul is untouchable.

If Luke mentioned Joseph Smith in his gospel or Acts, I would have to reconsider my feelings about him.

 

[IchoozJC]

Paul says that he got the revelation from Yeshua, how do you know he was right?? When anti-Torah things are found in Paul's words?

Anti-torah?

11 For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death. 12 So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good.

Romans 7
13 Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! Nevertheless, in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it used what is good to bring about my death, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful.


Doesn't sound anti-torah to me.

 

[ananda]

If Luke mentioned Joseph Smith in his gospel or Acts, I would have to reconsider my feelings about him.

What makes Luke authoritative, my friend?

 

[Der Alte]

What makes Luke authoritative, my friend?

What makes Matthew, Mark, John, James, and Jude authoritative?

 

[ananda]

Anti-torah? 12 So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good. 13 Did that which is good Doesn't sound anti-torah to me.

He also said the opposite, such as:

"Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage ... Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace." Gal 5 ... "they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone ... For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth." Rom 9-10
​

How can this dichotomy be explained? I suggest that Paul explained it himself:

"For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more. And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law; To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law. To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some ..." 1Cor 9
​

Paul admits that he taught differently to different groups of people. I also suggest that James, Peter, John, and Jude recognized this and wrote in warning:

"A double minded man is unstable in all his ways ... But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?" Jam 1-2 ... "there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. ... While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption ... You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, beware lest you be carried away with the error of lawless men and lose your own stability." 2Pet 2-3:17 (RSV) ... "Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous ... every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world ... For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous." 1Jn 3-5 ... "Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core." Jud
​

 

[Der Alte]

He also said the opposite, such as:

"Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage ... Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace." Gal 5 ... "they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone ... For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth." Rom 9-10​

How are believers in Christ saved and sanctified? By strict adherence to the law or by faith in Jesus Christ? Paul is saying if Christians have been saved by faith why are they returning to the laws to be justified?

How can this dichotomy be explained? I suggest that Paul explained it himself:

"For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more. And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law; To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law. To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some ..." 1Cor 9

Paul admits that he taught differently to different groups of people.

I have responded to this nonsense before. In a way I am like Paul. My wife is oriental, out of respect for her customs I have not worn shoes in my house for 30+ years. When I hand something to her or others of her countrymen I always use both hands. When I greet her countrymen, I always bow and greet them in their language. There are many, many other things I do or do not do which are not customs of the USA. Now if you can prove to me that Paul was doing something other than this, then bring it, amigo. Otherwise I think it's time to give it a rest.

I also suggest that James, Peter, John, and Jude recognized this and wrote in warning:
"A double minded man is unstable in all his ways ... But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?" Jam 1-2 ... "there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. ... While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption ... You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, beware lest you be carried away with the error of lawless men and lose your own stability." 2Pet 2-3:17 (RSV) ... "Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous ... every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world ... For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous." 1Jn 3-5 ... "Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core." Jud

Oh yeah, we can all throw at lot of random scriptures at someone. Something like if we sling enough mud maybe some of it will stick. Once again can you prove that any of this refers specifically to Paul? If Paul was such a scoundrel I wonder why two of John disciples, Polycarp and Ignatius, praised him.

FIRST EPISTLE OF CLEMENT [A.D. 30-100.] Chapter 5

Paul also obtained the reward of patient endurance, after being seven times thrown into captivity, compelled to flee, and stoned. After preaching both in the east and west, he gained the illustrious reputation due to his faith, having taught righteousness to the whole world, and come to the extreme limit of the west, and suffered martyrdom under the prefects. Thus was he removed from the world, and went into the holy place, having proved himself a striking example of patience.

CHAPTER 47

Take up the epistle of the blessed Apostle Paul. What did he write to you at the time when the Gospel first began to be preached? Truly, under the inspiration of the Spirit, he wrote to you concerning himself, and Cephas, and Apollos, because even then parties had been formed among you.

EPISTLE OF MATHETES TO DIOGNETUS [A.D. 130.] CHAPTER 3
EXPRESSIONS OF PERSONAL UNWORTHINESS

For neither I, nor any other such one, can come up to the wisdom of the blessed and glorified Paul. He, when among you, accurately and steadfastly taught the word of truth in the presence of those who were then alive.

EPISTLE OF POLYCARP TO THE PHILIPPIANS [A.D. 65-100-155.] CHAPTER 11 [Polycarp was a disciple of the apostle John]

But who of us are ignorant of the judgment of the Lord? “Do we not know that the saints shall judge the world?” as Paul teaches. But I have neither seen nor heard of any such thing among you, in the midst of whom the blessed Paul labored, and who are commended in the beginning of his Epistle.

EPISTLE OF IGNATIUS TO THE EPHESIANS [A.D. 30-107.] Chapter 11 [Ignatius was a disciple of the apostle John]

May I attain to this, so that I may be found in the lot of the Christians of Ephesus, who have always had intercourse with the apostles by the power of Jesus Christ, with Paul, and John, and Timothy the most faithful.

Chapter 12
Ye are initiated into the mysteries of the Gospel with Paul, the holy, the martyred, the deservedly most happy, at whose feet may I be found, when I shall attain to God; who in all his Epistles makes mention of you in Christ Jesus.

ANF01. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus - Christian Classics Ethereal Library​

 

[Der Alte]

He also said the opposite, such as:

"Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage ... Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace." Gal 5 ... "they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone ... For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth." Rom 9-10​

How are believers in Christ saved and sanctified? By strict adherence to the law or by faith in Jesus Christ? Paul is saying if Christians have been saved by faith why are they returning to the laws to be justified?

How can this dichotomy be explained? I suggest that Paul explained it himself:

"For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more. And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law; To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law. To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some ..." 1Cor 9

Paul admits that he taught differently to different groups of people.

I have responded to this nonsense before. In a way I am like Paul. My wife is oriental, out of respect for her customs I have not worn shoes in my house for 30+ years. When I hand something to her or others of her countrymen I always use both hands. When I greet her countrymen, I always bow and greet them in their language. There are many, many other things I do or do not do which are not customs of the USA. Now if you can prove to me that Paul was doing something other than this, then bring it, amigo. Otherwise I think it's time to give it a rest.

I also suggest that James, Peter, John, and Jude recognized this and wrote in warning:
"A double minded man is unstable in all his ways ... But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?" Jam 1-2 ... "there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. ... While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption ... You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, beware lest you be carried away with the error of lawless men and lose your own stability." 2Pet 2-3:17 (RSV) ... "Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous ... every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world ... For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous." 1Jn 3-5 ... "Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core." Jud

Oh yeah, we can all throw at lot of random scriptures at someone. Something like if we sling enough mud maybe some of it will stick. Once again can you prove that any of this refers specifically to Paul? If Paul was such a scoundrel I wonder why two of John disciples, Polycarp and Ignatius, praised him.

FIRST EPISTLE OF CLEMENT [A.D. 30-100.] Chapter 5

Paul also obtained the reward of patient endurance, after being seven times thrown into captivity, compelled to flee, and stoned. After preaching both in the east and west, he gained the illustrious reputation due to his faith, having taught righteousness to the whole world, and come to the extreme limit of the west, and suffered martyrdom under the prefects. Thus was he removed from the world, and went into the holy place, having proved himself a striking example of patience.

CHAPTER 47

Take up the epistle of the blessed Apostle Paul. What did he write to you at the time when the Gospel first began to be preached? Truly, under the inspiration of the Spirit, he wrote to you concerning himself, and Cephas, and Apollos, because even then parties had been formed among you.

EPISTLE OF MATHETES TO DIOGNETUS [A.D. 130.] CHAPTER 3
EXPRESSIONS OF PERSONAL UNWORTHINESS

For neither I, nor any other such one, can come up to the wisdom of the blessed and glorified Paul. He, when among you, accurately and steadfastly taught the word of truth in the presence of those who were then alive.

EPISTLE OF POLYCARP TO THE PHILIPPIANS [A.D. 65-100-155.] CHAPTER 11 [Polycarp was a disciple of the apostle John]

But who of us are ignorant of the judgment of the Lord? “Do we not know that the saints shall judge the world?” as Paul teaches. But I have neither seen nor heard of any such thing among you, in the midst of whom the blessed Paul labored, and who are commended in the beginning of his Epistle.

EPISTLE OF IGNATIUS TO THE EPHESIANS [A.D. 30-107.] Chapter 11 [Ignatius was a disciple of the apostle John]

May I attain to this, so that I may be found in the lot of the Christians of Ephesus, who have always had intercourse with the apostles by the power of Jesus Christ, with Paul, and John, and Timothy the most faithful.

Chapter 12
Ye are initiated into the mysteries of the Gospel with Paul, the holy, the martyred, the deservedly most happy, at whose feet may I be found, when I shall attain to God; who in all his Epistles makes mention of you in Christ Jesus.

ANF01. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus - Christian Classics Ethereal Library​

 

[Joseph474]

We can ask such questions about Joseph Smith, Mary Baker Eddy, etc. ... but Pharisee Paul is untouchable.

Because Pharisee Paul made his way into the Bible and filled the Messianic Writings with his stuff. Otherwise he would not even have any direct influence on many Christians at all.

 

[timewerx]

Regarding Luke 9:57-58, you may want to read it again. For example, Apostle Paul met Yeshua's criteria set out in Luke 9:57-58.

See my reply on your 2nd mention of Grimsrud.

Timewerx, what do you think about what Yeshua said about using Apostle Paul to do His work? What do you think of Holy Spirit guiding Apostle Paul to become aware of the truth of the Torah, as Grimsrud demonstrated?

Torah is not Christian, it is of Judaism. Judaism came from Rabbinic Judaism which in turn descended directly from Pharisee.

Both modern Judaism and Pharisee follow the same set of teachings in the Babylonian Talmud.

Ironically, what you presented here only serves to strengthen suspicions that Paul never gave up being a Pharisee, so what can I say... Thank you!

Timewerx, I hope you offer some feedback about Grimsrud' s take on Apostle Paul's teaching concerning how Empire uses injustice and violence to create brokenness and how Father Jehovah offers mercy and salvation.

That is true but what about the other teachings of Paul?

I do know that Paul also taught a lot of truths but the problem is he also taught many things which contradict the teachings of Jesus.

If you think of it carefully, how could ever deceive anyone who is very smart but only to mix deceit with the truth so they may believe lies together with the truth.

Same thing with trying to poison a vermin - give it food that it loves and lace it with poison, give it poison only, it will not take the poison... ...Same thing with deceit - no Christian will ever accept a belief system that contains nothing but lies (poison).

What makes Luke authoritative, my friend?

Many of the things Luke wrote contradicted Paul's teachings. The salvation that Luke wrote is utterly different than the salvation teachings of Paul.

Either Luke have not heard all of Paul's teachings or Paul deliberately kept his own gospel from Luke

What makes Matthew, Mark, John, James, and Jude authoritative?

Their teachings of Jesus - His commands are solidly supported by world facts and statistics.

- Find out for yourself where money comes and goes.

- Does the poor fully deserve their fate? Those are born in Bangladesh are evil because of their poverty?

- What about our planet, is it getting better, is it flourishing? who is responsible for its current overall state?


The teachings of Jesus is the only solution to worsening state of our planet. It is the only thing that will bring healing to all - if everyone will follow it. But it requires a HUGE price on our part - especially to the rich.

The Gospel of Paul on the other hand, makes salvation free - requiring no action - we can continue on our ways which will one day ruin our planet completely - ways which lead to our own destruction.

..

 

[wintermile]

If you think of it carefully, how could ever deceive anyone who is very smart but only to mix deceit with the truth so they may believe lies together with the truth.

Same thing with trying to poison a vermin - give it food that it loves and lace it with poison, give it poison only, it will not take the poison... ...Same thing with deceit - no Christian will ever accept a belief system that contains nothing but lies (poison).

When you become sick to death of New Age violence, let me know.

 

[TorahMan]

Hi all,

This is my first time here. Not to make converts, but merely to present a few verses which some may be overlooking to their possible cost.

Yeshua nominated twelve apostles, whose names are these:

1. Simon, who is called Peter;
2. Andrew his brother;
3. James the son of Zebedee;
4. John his brother;
5. Philip;
6. Bartholomew;
7. Thomas
8. Matthew the tax collector;
9. James the son of Alphaeus;
10. Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus;
11. Simon the Cananite; and
12. Judas Iscariot, later replaced by Mattheus (Matt 10:2-4; Acts 1:26).

Any dissenters? No? Let's continue.

In Revelation 21:14, we read that "the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb".

But the Pauline believer says "Wait! Paul was apostle no. 13!" Ok, let's add to the number of apostles and see where that takes us:

"For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things (e.g. the number of apostles), God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book" (Rev 22:18).

The plagues are seven seal judgements, seven trumpet judgements, and seven bowl judgements. They involve horrendous persecution, poverty, disease and martyrdom (especially for Christians). They involve being forced to take the mark and worship the 'beast' in order to keep using money. Now here's the crux: To experience these plagues, a person CANNOT be taken in any rapture. They MUST be left behind. And if there's no rapture, they've positioned themselves to be devoid of any protection during the Great Tribulation. Rapture or no rapture, the outcome is awful.

But be warned: if you admit the possibility that Paul was not an apostle, then that also makes him a liar and his whole house of cards comes tumbling down. You will find yourself drawing closer to Yeshua, and understanding His ministry a lot better. You will find the whole Bible becoming alive, and that you're unable to tolerate any more pro-Paul sermons from pastors who have no idea what they're talking about. You will find yourself experimenting with the Sabbath and the food law, and experiencing new levels of spiritual clarity and physical health which you never expected. You will certainly discover that the dreaded 'law' is simpler and easier than ordinary Churchianity (I kid you not)!

So I would strongly suggest that (just as I did 7 years ago), you drum up the courage to critically examine Paul, as you are INSTRUCTED to do in the law of Moses (which Yeshua consistently affirmed) (Deut 4:2; 13:5). You will not be struck dead, nor lose one iota of your faith. It's all upside!

Blessings to all.

 

[drstevej]

Was Luke a liar too? Acts 14:14
Was Peter hoodwinked? 2 Peter 3:15-16

 

[ananda]

Hi all,

This is my first time here. Not to make converts, but merely to present a few verses which others may be overlooking to their future detriment.

Yeshua nominated twelve apostles, whose names are these:

1. Simon, who is called Peter;
2. Andrew his brother;
3. James the son of Zebedee;
4. John his brother;
5. Philip;
6. Bartholomew;
7. Thomas
8. Matthew the tax collector;
9. James the son of Alphaeus;
10. Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus;
11. Simon the Cananite; and
12. Judas Iscariot, later replaced by Mattheus (Matt 10:2-4; Acts 1:26).

Any dissenters? No? Let's continue.

In Revelation 21:14, we read that "the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb".

But the Pauline believer says "Wait! Paul was apostle no. 13!" Ok, let's add to the number of apostles and see where that takes us:

"For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things (e.g. the number of apostles), God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book" (Rev 22:18).

The plagues are seven scroll judgements, seven trumpet judgements, and seven bowl judgements. They involve horrendous persecution, poverty, disease and martyrdom (especially for Christians). They involve being forced to take the mark and worship the 'beast' in order to keep using money. Now here's the crux: To experience these plagues, a person CANNOT be taken in any rapture. They MUST be left behind. And if there's no rapture, they've positioned themselves to be devoid of any protection during the Great Tribulation. Rapture or no rapture, the outcome is awful.

But be warned: if you admit the possibility that Paul was not an apostle, then that also makes him a liar and his whole house of cards comes tumbling down. You will find yourself drawing closer to Yeshua, and understanding His ministry a lot better. You will find the whole Bible becoming alive, and that you're unable to tolerate any more pro-Paul sermons from pastors who have no idea what they're talking about. You will find yourself experimenting with the Sabbath and the food law, and experiencing new levels of spiritual clarity and physical health which you never expected. You will certainly discover that the dreaded 'law' is simpler and easier than ordinary Churchianity (I kid you not)!

So I would strongly suggest that (just as I did 7 years ago), you drum up the courage to critically examine Paul, as you are INSTRUCTED to do in the law of Moses (which Yeshua consistently affirmed) (Deut 4:2; 13:5). You will not be struck dead, nor lose one iota of your faith. It's all upside!

Blessings to all.

 

[drstevej]

Was Luke a liar too? Acts 14:14
Was Peter hoodwinked? 2 Peter 3:15-16