Ash Wednesday/Lent >Pagan origins, against Christ's command.

[katherine2001]

Asking people to provide documentation for what they post is not a "personal assertion".

 

[New Legacy]

You'll not be able to show any record of Gregory establishing the practice of ashes regarding the Wednesday he added to lent.

In fact the earliest you will actually see a record of this is multiple centuries after Gregory when Aelfric records it.

You will in the sacramentary.

"earliest you will see" is a claim by you and you alone.

This is the single straw that you hold on to, but your entire argument rests on the idea it is pagan because there is no, according to you, record of it.

Where is your evidence that it is nordic or pagan? How do you explain why the Roman Church would universally adopt a particular pagan practice?

Please don't say you already went over this - you made a bunch of claims and never backed them up.

 

[New Legacy]

i've been pouring through hemskrila (odin's war) as I know it gave better details to the ash reference, i've also read that norse religion had it's base in hinduism and their "tripundra" which is burning cow dung and using the ash to mark their foreheads in a symbollic way this dates back to the 8th century but the link between the three is proving much harder than anticipated.

That is completely absurd. Nordics and Hinduism would have nothing in common. Do you know anything about geography?

Again, where is your evidence that Nordics put ashes on their forehead?

 

[~Anastasia~]

You know what I'm thinking ...

Pagans used drums, didn't they? They used them in pagan rituals. I'm pretty sure of it. You can probably go back and "prove" easily that it predates their use in church as a percussion instrument for worship singing.

Does that make everyone who sings in a church that uses drums pagan? It's not in the Bible is it?

Of course I wouldn't argue that. I like singing praise songs sometimes. It's brought my spirit to feel that I am singing right to the heart of God. IOW, it does something positive for my relationship with God, and helps enable a spirit of worship. Is it bad or pagan? No, it's something that benefits my walk of faith.

I don't think the whole ash thing is pagan. I'm not seeing it proven. But you know what? I don't really care. It sounds like the drums to me. So what if pagans might have used them first? How are Catholics using them? As a symbol, to remind them to be repentant? Is that a bad thing? How can I condemn something that benefits their walk of faith, makes them more humble, repentant? Why would I???

And besides, sackcloth, ashes, and fasting are all in the OT. I think drums probably are too.

Can't we just let each other do the things that bring us closer to God? It's not as if anyone is committing a sacrilege of some kind.

Sorry - I've just seen this going on, consuming so much time, effort, words - trying to prove, disagreeing. Seems to me that the effort would be a lot better spent "watching one's own plate" ... paying attention to how we each relate to God, rather than worrying abut what someone else is doing. Or maybe going out and feeding a few hungry people?

Peace.

 

[Jipsah]

i've also read that norse religion had it's base in hinduism

 

[Jipsah]

It is the first the celebration is recorded..
Not sure how you can say baloney and then not offer some form of refutation???

No need to "refute" baloney. Up to you to substantiate your claims. Until you do, they're baloney. And I'm betting they'll remain so.

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

Still waiting on that primary source documentation...

 

[MoreCoffee]

Still waiting on that primary source documentation...

It's difficult to produce documentation of real things but it is impossible to produce valid documentation of imaginary things.

 

[MKJ]

i've been pouring through hemskrila (odin's war) as I know it gave better details to the ash reference, i've also read that norse religion had it's base in hinduism and their "tripundra" which is burning cow dung and using the ash to mark their foreheads in a symbollic way this dates back to the 8th century but the link between the three is proving much harder than anticipated.

You can't draw conclusions of links in historical study by just noting that there is something done in various places. Cross overs that arise totally independently are very very common. The use of water as a symbol, for example, or fire - these are things that have great meaning to people wherever they live, and they behave in particular ways in all places - we all need water to live, water in many paces is used for cleaning, it is important to growing crops. So water is often used to symbolize such things. Just like eggs may be used to symbolize new life, or phallic symbols for the life force.

These symbols suggest themselves to people in disparate times and places, without there being any historic connection. The connection is nature, and human nature.

The same is true in the study of texts. You can find the same ideas in many cases expressed different writings, but only sometimes can you link them - other times they have arisen totally independently. There are whole areas of highly specialized study dedicated to discerning whether there are actually connections between texts or not.

The human brain works to make connections between things - that is what allows us to see patterns. But one of the weaknesses of that is we often see connections where none actually exist. That is why it is so important in such studies to compensate for that tendency by rigorously looking for actual links, or looking to see if such links can be ruled out, before we come to conclusions or make claims.

 

[Aiysha]

I wonder why you bother? Why not mind your own business?


I can totally understand your desire to hold on to what your tradition means to your Faith, I honestly do but theologically, I'd have to agree with the original poster in many ways. The Bible warns us time and time again about getting caught up in the traditions of other religions and how dangerous to our spirit it can be. Not to mention the fact that society first replaced all the original celebrations, fasts and even the Sabbath, then after it was acceptable... took even what little Christian meaning there was in these holidays and replaced it with consumerism and commercialism... We should fast whenever we feel we need to be without to be closer to Yahweh and we don't need ash or pagan holidays to commemorate it...

That's my opinion anyway and I hope you can accept my view without resentment.

 

[Root of Jesse]

That's just it. It's not a pagan practice we're following. It is a Biblical practice, which we use to mark the beginning of the Lenten season.
By the way, society didn't replace the celebrations or the Sabbath. The Church didn't replace the Sabbath, either. The Church worships on the day the Lord rose from the dead, Sunday. Society did corrupt holy days, like the eve of All Saints, Christmas Eve, New Year's Eve., day before Ash Wed, St. Patrick's Day, St. Valentine's Day, for sure. But we don't practice those holidays (at least the Catholic Church doesn't) that way. We revere those days. It's not an excuse to get drunk.
We fast because we want to prepare for the Lord's Passion week. We're welcome to fast more if we want to. Personally, almost every day is a fast day, by Church meaning (one meal and two smaller meals). So a fast, for me would be more.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I wonder why you bother? Why not mind your own business?

I can totally understand your desire to hold on to what your tradition means to your Faith, I honestly do but theologically, I'd have to agree with the original poster in many ways. The Bible warns us time and time again about getting caught up in the traditions of other religions and how dangerous to our spirit it can be. Not to mention the fact that society first replaced all the original celebrations, fasts and even the Sabbath, then after it was acceptable... took even what little Christian meaning there was in these holidays and replaced it with consumerism and commercialism... We should fast whenever we feel we need to be without to be closer to Yahweh and we don't need ash or pagan holidays to commemorate it...

That's my opinion anyway and I hope you can accept my view without resentment.

That's just it. It's not a pagan practice we're following. It is a Biblical practice, which we use to mark the beginning of the Lenten season.

By the way, society didn't replace the celebrations or the Sabbath. The Church didn't replace the Sabbath, either. The Church worships on the day the Lord rose from the dead, Sunday. Society did corrupt holy days, like the eve of All Saints, Christmas Eve, New Year's Eve., day before Ash Wed, St. Patrick's Day, St. Valentine's Day, for sure. But we don't practice those holidays (at least the Catholic Church doesn't) that way. We revere those days. It's not an excuse to get drunk.

We fast because we want to prepare for the Lord's Passion week. We're welcome to fast more if we want to. Personally, almost every day is a fast day, by Church meaning (one meal and two smaller meals). So a fast, for me would be more.

The Original Post is in error. Easter is not pagan. It is a commemoration of the Lord's resurrection. Lent is related to the forty days fast of the Lord after his baptism. It is commemorated before Easter because baptised Christians are thereby helped to think through the meaning of their baptism in practical experienced ways every year.

And for good measure I'll note that Christmas is not pagan, celebrating birthdays is not pagan or evil, and the doctrine of the Holy Trinity is not a pagan doctrine either.

Too many people take up the cry against 'celebrations' at this time of year echoing the magazines published by the Watchtower Bible & Tract Society. Stop it. You're doing a wicked thing when you accuse Christians of being pagan and doing pagan things on pagan holy days.

 

[SolomonVII]

You read my post wrong. Gregory removed Sunday from Lent, making Lent begin on Wednesday and established the practiced of using ashes in reference to the Old Testament.

I was able to find a source which would make the beginning of Lent on a Wednesday, as a matter of the arithmetic of 40+6 to Easter Sunday. I will accept that that would make a Wednesday start to Lent the standard, and it does seem to go back to Gregory.

There is also the Biblical use of ashes for days of sorrow and repentance, so that would mean that the cultural use of ashes on such a day would rationally point the source of the practice as Biblical.

The first historic description of the actual practice of the use of ashes on the first day of Lent(Wednesday) would be from a priest named Aelefric<sp> circa 1000AD.

However there are also mentions of the "Day of Ashes" in a certain prayer book of which I cannot recall the name, which goes back to the eighth century.

So the actual practice of using ashes on the first day of Lent is firmly established by 1000 AD only, and perhaps can be conjectured to go back to at least the eighth century depending on how one interprets 'Day of Ashes' in a source book from that time period.
I am not aware of source that shows that the practice of using ashes can be authentically shown to have been the practice in Gregory's time frame(590 to 604 ad) though.

I would be interested in seeing that source, if you have it. I think a lot of us would be interested in that kind of authentication.

 

[LarryP2]

Just 30 years ago, I recall fundamentalists were universally arguing that Rock music was devilish Satan worship. Here are some current examples of this line of thought:
Rock Music And Devil Worship
Does Jimmy Page Worship The Devil? A Look at Satanism in Rock: Song Writing
Lucifer Rising : A Book of Sin, Devil Worship and Rock 'n' Roll: Gavin Baddeley: 9780859652803: Amazon.com: Books
The Devil's In the Music
What bands worship the devil
Rock Music's Satanic Message - henrymakow.com

You would be hard pressed to find a fundamentalist non-denominational church that does NOT have Rock as a centerpiece of their worship now!!!!!!In fact I went to a "Megachurch" once with FIVE full-time paid Christian rock bands used around the clock during their weekend services!

And now there are Fundamentalist Christian Rap and Hip Hop Bands - which ironically is a crude and sulferous musical genre that in its secular form - was FOUNDED on the promotion of obscenity-laced references to hard drug use, forcible rape and sodomy, premarital and promiscuous sexual conduct and bisexual orgies, and methamphetamine-fueled and blood-soaked drive-by murder sprees:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ZZFA3VQQYs\

Similarly, Heavy metal music, which reverberated with explicit Satanic themes, explicit advocacy of sexual promiscuity and hard drug use in aid of Satan worship, and frequently practiced explicit Satanic rituals in concerts during its secular phase, is now openly embraced by the Christian Music industry and fundamentalist churches:
List of Christian metal bands - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Christian metal - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Top 10 Christian Metal Bands

And one of the worst examples of this anti-liturgy, and anti-Easter bigotry is the Seventh Day Adventist Church, which frequently, in hateful foam-flecked tirades, denounces Roman Catholics as "The harlot of Babylon" and Protestant Churches as "The Harlot Daughters of the harlot of Babylon."

It seems that while this cult hatefully denounces liturgical churches for celebrating the life, death and resurrection of their dear Lord Jesus Christ, it too has hypocritically turned to what it used to theatrically denounce as "Satan Worship" as the music of choice in many of its Church services:
CHRISTIAN ROCK MUSIC IN THE SDA CHURCH - Articles, Stories, and Items of Interest - Bible Explorations - Spreading the good news that we are the last generation and that Christ is coming very soon!
Untitled Document
http://omega77.tripod.com/sambmusic.htm
Seventh-day Adventists and Music

So the ignorant and superficial announcement that Lent may have had "pagan" origins is propounded by the same hypocritical fundamentalists who just 30 years ago universally denounced rock music as "Satan Worship." Hilariously, they now, without any apparent irony or shame, universally embrace and deploy hip-hop, rap, and heavy metal rock as the centerpiece of their worship.

But let's keep our eye on the ball here: Pious Liturgical Christians who have obsessively organized their entire year around daily veneration of the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. And who undergo a stringent 40-day period of self-denial and repentance to prepare for their explicit veneration of the Resurrection - are the ones to be condemned and denounced because their. After all, some 1,300 years ago, it may have distantly resembled a pagan custom!!!

 

[Thekla]

sackcloth and ashes:
6742 sackcloth and ashes - Dictionary of Bible Themes - Bible Gateway

then during Lent, wash your face

 

[SolomonVII]

Read the OP again.

OP---

Ash Wednesday/Lent >Pagan origins, against Christ's command.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ash Wednesday is only around 1,000 years in practice and it's origins are from that of the Nordic pagan religion.

To say that it is of Nordic origin would entail that it is demonstrable that the historic trail leads from Nordic practice to Ash Wednesday.
Instead the opposite has been demonstrated where the first known sources of the practice justify the practice through Biblical practices that have been sustained through the years in a variety of circumstances.

The historical precedents overtly justifying the use of ashes as a sign of repentance through Biblical example have been laid out in detail.
I am not aware of these being refuted anywhere in this long thread, and I really ought to have become aware, since much of these precedents have been presented over and over again by me.

To state that it is historically from Pagan origins would entail that the evidence of Biblical origins be refuted, and make pagan origins somehow more convincing than assuming a herd of zebras stomping over the Arizona plains.

 

[Standing Up]

To say that it is of Nordic origin would entail that it is demonstrable that the historic trail leads from Nordic practice to Ash Wednesday.
Instead the opposite has been demonstrated where the first known sources of the practice justify the practice through Biblical practices that have been sustained through the years in a variety of circumstances.

The historical precedents overtly justifying the use of ashes as a sign of repentance through Biblical example have been laid out in detail.
I am not aware of these being refuted anywhere in this long thread, and I really ought to have become aware, since much of these precedents have been presented over and over again by me.

To state that it is historically from Pagan origins would entail that the evidence of Biblical origins be refuted, and make pagan origins somehow more convincing than assuming a herd of zebras stomping over the Arizona plains.

What's black and white and red all over? A sun-burnt herd of zebras running through the Arizona desert.

See post #607. Believe you were the one who found the Athanasius connection and the Gregory connection to the fixing of 40 days to easter, sans Sabbath, always from a Wednesday to Sunday.

The question is still whether Gregory (who standardized the 40-day "fast") initiated the ash part of the practice. That sackcloth and ashes were a sign of repentance (Jonah) is true enough, but were the ashes always a mark during Lenten time?

PS. Very early on some fasted 40 hours, marking what they thought was the period from a Friday 3pm death to a Sunday 7am resurrection.

 

[Root of Jesse]

What's black and white and red all over? A sun-burnt herd of zebras running through the Arizona desert.

See post #607. Believe you were the one who found the Athanasius connection and the Gregory connection to the fixing of 40 days to easter, sans Sabbath, always from a Wednesday to Sunday.

The question is still whether Gregory (who standardized the 40-day "fast") initiated the ash part of the practice. That sackcloth and ashes were a sign of repentance (Jonah) is true enough, but were the ashes always a mark during Lenten time?

PS. Very early on some fasted 40 hours, marking what they thought was the period from a Friday 3pm death to a Sunday 7am resurrection.

Again, the question remains. "So what?" Even if the practice was suggested in 1999, what's the point? It's a practice, not a doctrine. I practice my faith differently than anyone else. Ash Wednesday is a practice done by many. If I make the sign of the cross every 6 minutes as a sign of reverence, who are you (all) to determine whether my practice is pagan or not??? I don't question your faith or your practice, why do you question mine (speaking for all Catholics)? If you want to jump on a trampoline and shout "Alleluia" every 20th bounce, it's not for me to judge (as our Pope has said about other things). You do it your way. I'm going to do it mine. And it's none of your business...

 

[VolRaider]

God will burn you in Hell for putting ashes on your head to commemorate the beginning of the Lenten season.
Chew on that statement and just please....please....think about how stupid that sounds. If I get reprimanded for that, so be it. But I don't know what else to say about this topic. THINK!!!

 

[LarryP2]

Will you also burn in hell if you belong to an Evangelical/Protestant church that plays Rock Music during Church?

Rock Music And Devil Worship