katherine2001
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Asking people to provide documentation for what they post is not a "personal assertion".
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You'll not be able to show any record of Gregory establishing the practice of ashes regarding the Wednesday he added to lent.
In fact the earliest you will actually see a record of this is multiple centuries after Gregory when Aelfric records it.
i've been pouring through hemskrila (odin's war) as I know it gave better details to the ash reference, i've also read that norse religion had it's base in hinduism and their "tripundra" which is burning cow dung and using the ash to mark their foreheads in a symbollic way this dates back to the 8th century but the link between the three is proving much harder than anticipated.
No need to "refute" baloney. Up to you to substantiate your claims. Until you do, they're baloney. And I'm betting they'll remain so.It is the first the celebration is recorded..
Not sure how you can say baloney and then not offer some form of refutation???
It's difficult to produce documentation of real things but it is impossible to produce valid documentation of imaginary things.Still waiting on that primary source documentation...
i've been pouring through hemskrila (odin's war) as I know it gave better details to the ash reference, i've also read that norse religion had it's base in hinduism and their "tripundra" which is burning cow dung and using the ash to mark their foreheads in a symbollic way this dates back to the 8th century but the link between the three is proving much harder than anticipated.
I wonder why you bother? Why not mind your own business?
I can totally understand your desire to hold on to what your tradition means to your Faith, I honestly do but theologically, I'd have to agree with the original poster in many ways. The Bible warns us time and time again about getting caught up in the traditions of other religions and how dangerous to our spirit it can be. Not to mention the fact that society first replaced all the original celebrations, fasts and even the Sabbath, then after it was acceptable... took even what little Christian meaning there was in these holidays and replaced it with consumerism and commercialism... We should fast whenever we feel we need to be without to be closer to Yahweh and we don't need ash or pagan holidays to commemorate it...
That's my opinion anyway and I hope you can accept my view without resentment.
That's just it. It's not a pagan practice we're following. It is a Biblical practice, which we use to mark the beginning of the Lenten season.
By the way, society didn't replace the celebrations or the Sabbath. The Church didn't replace the Sabbath, either. The Church worships on the day the Lord rose from the dead, Sunday. Society did corrupt holy days, like the eve of All Saints, Christmas Eve, New Year's Eve., day before Ash Wed, St. Patrick's Day, St. Valentine's Day, for sure. But we don't practice those holidays (at least the Catholic Church doesn't) that way. We revere those days. It's not an excuse to get drunk.
We fast because we want to prepare for the Lord's Passion week. We're welcome to fast more if we want to. Personally, almost every day is a fast day, by Church meaning (one meal and two smaller meals). So a fast, for me would be more.
The Original Post is in error. Easter is not pagan. It is a commemoration of the Lord's resurrection. Lent is related to the forty days fast of the Lord after his baptism. It is commemorated before Easter because baptised Christians are thereby helped to think through the meaning of their baptism in practical experienced ways every year.That's just it. It's not a pagan practice we're following. It is a Biblical practice, which we use to mark the beginning of the Lenten season.I wonder why you bother? Why not mind your own business?
I can totally understand your desire to hold on to what your tradition means to your Faith, I honestly do but theologically, I'd have to agree with the original poster in many ways. The Bible warns us time and time again about getting caught up in the traditions of other religions and how dangerous to our spirit it can be. Not to mention the fact that society first replaced all the original celebrations, fasts and even the Sabbath, then after it was acceptable... took even what little Christian meaning there was in these holidays and replaced it with consumerism and commercialism... We should fast whenever we feel we need to be without to be closer to Yahweh and we don't need ash or pagan holidays to commemorate it...
That's my opinion anyway and I hope you can accept my view without resentment.
By the way, society didn't replace the celebrations or the Sabbath. The Church didn't replace the Sabbath, either. The Church worships on the day the Lord rose from the dead, Sunday. Society did corrupt holy days, like the eve of All Saints, Christmas Eve, New Year's Eve., day before Ash Wed, St. Patrick's Day, St. Valentine's Day, for sure. But we don't practice those holidays (at least the Catholic Church doesn't) that way. We revere those days. It's not an excuse to get drunk.
We fast because we want to prepare for the Lord's Passion week. We're welcome to fast more if we want to. Personally, almost every day is a fast day, by Church meaning (one meal and two smaller meals). So a fast, for me would be more.
You read my post wrong. Gregory removed Sunday from Lent, making Lent begin on Wednesday and established the practiced of using ashes in reference to the Old Testament.
Read the OP again.
OP---
Ash Wednesday/Lent >Pagan origins, against Christ's command.
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Ash Wednesday is only around 1,000 years in practice and it's origins are from that of the Nordic pagan religion.
To say that it is of Nordic origin would entail that it is demonstrable that the historic trail leads from Nordic practice to Ash Wednesday.
Instead the opposite has been demonstrated where the first known sources of the practice justify the practice through Biblical practices that have been sustained through the years in a variety of circumstances.
The historical precedents overtly justifying the use of ashes as a sign of repentance through Biblical example have been laid out in detail.
I am not aware of these being refuted anywhere in this long thread, and I really ought to have become aware, since much of these precedents have been presented over and over again by me.
To state that it is historically from Pagan origins would entail that the evidence of Biblical origins be refuted, and make pagan origins somehow more convincing than assuming a herd of zebras stomping over the Arizona plains.
Again, the question remains. "So what?" Even if the practice was suggested in 1999, what's the point? It's a practice, not a doctrine. I practice my faith differently than anyone else. Ash Wednesday is a practice done by many. If I make the sign of the cross every 6 minutes as a sign of reverence, who are you (all) to determine whether my practice is pagan or not??? I don't question your faith or your practice, why do you question mine (speaking for all Catholics)? If you want to jump on a trampoline and shout "Alleluia" every 20th bounce, it's not for me to judge (as our Pope has said about other things). You do it your way. I'm going to do it mine. And it's none of your business...What's black and white and red all over? A sun-burnt herd of zebras running through the Arizona desert.
See post #607. Believe you were the one who found the Athanasius connection and the Gregory connection to the fixing of 40 days to easter, sans Sabbath, always from a Wednesday to Sunday.
The question is still whether Gregory (who standardized the 40-day "fast") initiated the ash part of the practice. That sackcloth and ashes were a sign of repentance (Jonah) is true enough, but were the ashes always a mark during Lenten time?
PS. Very early on some fasted 40 hours, marking what they thought was the period from a Friday 3pm death to a Sunday 7am resurrection.