What if Preachers Never Got Paid?

[A New Dawn]

Why are you living in cities? That isn't a requirement. Many "holy men," in fact, lived in villages, and abhored cities (for what should be obvious reasons.)

I'm sorry. Did you really say this?

What do you mean "Why are you living in cities? That isn't a requirement."? Of course it isn't a requirement, but why not cities? People in cities don't deserve to be saved or have a place to go to church or a pastor to lead them?

I am talking about the entire church of corruption. That means preachers swindling for money, teaching false things, not teaching the Word of God, etc. That is a large percentage. You may think I am wrong, but we can go on a info dig on many of these pastors - poor/unknown and rich/known. I bet a majority would yield unsavory results in my favor. Of course, there are tens of thousands of pastors in the States, and hundreds of thousands worldwide. So, there is no logistical statistic that would vindicate you or me. We go by experience and extrapolate it. We can agree to disagree, no problem. But, I am not basing my opinion on a "few" hacks. As I said previously, I have been through a gauntlet of all types of ministers - internationally.

You must have very high standards for people who still have a fallen nature. Sad. That's not to say that people who feel called to the ministry shouldn't model the sanctification that should accompany anyone who is saved, but even saved people fall. For you to think so little of the majority of people who choose to spend their life serving God, it's just sad to be in that place.

 

[A New Dawn]

Preachers aren't called by God. They go to school for their authority.

And, in your opinion, what does "called by God" look like? Someone else has to tell you you are called by God? What about the thousands of people who come away from the LDS church who were told they were "called by God" when they weren't? LDS priesthood don't have the foggiest idea what is going on in the hearts and minds of others, but I can see why you think you can come on here and tell others that they aren't called. What a bunch of bunk. God doesn't need a middleman. He did away with that when Christ died on the cross. That was the whole point of the veil in the temple tearing.

The LDS are still stuck in the OT. Christ changed everything. No need for middlemen, no need for temples, no need for priesthood of the OT nature, since the church is the priesthood of believers.

As it was already addressed, the General Authorities do nothing but their callings. These "preachers" have time to get real jobs instead of mooching off members of their congregation.

You really need to keep your nasty attitude to yourself. It is against the rules to mock Christianity.

Your GA do nothing different than ministers in other churches. They run the shebang. If your GA deserve to be paid, then so do ministers in other churches.

 

[drstevej]

FTR: The seminary I attended only accepted students that acknowledged and explained their belief that they had been called by God to the ministry. This was a central part of the application process. To say they considered themselves as granting authority is a falsehood.

 

[Norah63]

What if preachers never got paid?
They would develop talents like Paul and make tents.
Fish like Peter, dr. like Luke.
Many write books that sell very well and make money to live on that way.
Having a job of any kind is not a hindrence to a preacher or any believer.
Hirelings are not well spoken of in scripture.

 

[drstevej]

Norah, better use some liquid paper on 1 Timothy 5:17-18 in your Bible then.

 

[Ironhold]

But enough about others, when are you going to write to the general leaders of your church and tell them to drop the income and get a job? What you say is nothing but double-speak.

We've already explained that:

1. They're about the only ones in a full 24 / 7 position

2. Most of them took deep cuts in pay for that position

 

[drstevej]

Many write books that sell very well and make money to live on that way.

So written proclamation of the Bible's message is not being a hireling, but to speak the same content and be compensated is being a hireling?

 

[drstevej]

If General authorities are 24/7 workers do they sleep on the job or are they perpetually awake?


Hmmmmm

 

[Ironhold]

You really need to keep your nasty attitude to yourself. It is against the rules to mock Christianity.

...something that comes off as quite hypocritical given all of the verbal abuse that those who aren't mainline Christians are receiving here on this forum.

That being said -

One of the big controversies with religious education is that theology is one of those rare fields to where people can leap straight from the classroom to a position of power. As much as folks may want to believe that their minister spent 4+ years at St. Groucho University so that he could learn how to best spread the word of God, it's just as likely that their minister went to www.ordainmequick.com (points to anyone who gets the reference) so that they could have an excuse to get money by the plateful.

In contrast, in most other fields, only the delusional presume that they won't have to bust their hump at some point trying to gain credibility so that they can earn the sweet nectar that they're after.

In that sense, "they can wave around a piece of paper" in and of itself isn't always a solid indicator of the person's ability to be a minister.

 

[drstevej]

it's just as likely that their minister went to www.ordainmequick.com (points to anyone who gets the reference) so that they could have an excuse to get money by the plateful.

Prove this.

 

[NYCGuy]

Preachers aren't called by God. They go to school for their authority.

Perhaps one of our Protestant friends can share how they have received their authority and calling.

Catholic priests are called by God and receive authority through the laying on of hands of those in authority. Seminary provides the necessary education in be a priest in this age, with study of the scriptures, Biblical languages, history of Christ's Church, social justice, counseling etc, however the power and authority of priesthood comes only from God through the laying on of hands of those that have authority, going all the way back to Jesus Christ.

As it was already addressed, the General Authorities do nothing but their callings. These "preachers" have time to get real jobs instead of mooching off members of their congregation.

This is called moving the goal posts. Originally, the argument was simply against "paid ministry". Indeed, your church repeatedly shouts "we have an unpaid ministry!!!". Now, we see that General Authorities indeed do receive a living stipend for their service, so the goal posts are now moved to "well they do nothing but their callings". Clearly you have not a clue what ministers in other churches do if you say such things. One such minister has already commented in this thread on the full-time nature of his ministry, and the same goes for Catholic priests and bishops who do nothing but their callings.

What Does a Priest Do? | St. Mark the Evangelist Catholic Church
The Role of Priests in the Catholic Church - For Dummies

 

[NYCGuy]

You, of all people, are crying mockery? What have you "good Christians" been doing this whole time? That's all you people do. I mocked nothing. All I said is ministers don't deserve payment for what they do and that they need real jobs.

Oh my, "you people". How sad. See just in your post above this one the mocking ("These "preachers" have time to get real jobs instead of mooching off members of their congregation.").

Your personal opinion aside, we have already seen that the Bible supports the support of the clergy, from Old and New Testaments. We have already seen that Mormon scripture supports the remuneration of bishops (the cancelling of a law is irrelevant to the point). Further, we see that General Authorities receive money for what they do. What's the argument being made here again? Sorry, it holds no water, whether Biblically or within the Mormon church itself.

 

[drstevej]

Perhaps one of our Protestant friends can share how they have received their authority and calling.

I became a Christian as a senior in high school. At college I was discipled by a Campus Crusade staff member. During my senior year over a period of months I sensed God call to become a pastor. I wrestled with this and then decided I would not go to grad school at Ga Tech, but I would pursue training in the Bible. God over the next two years not only took care of my military obligation in a most remarkable way. He opened the door to Dallas Seminary (which at the time was turning down 2/3 of the applicants. He also, without my asking, moved my grandmother to write a check as a gift that covered my four years of study. Her words were, "Steve, I don't know if I can impact many people for Christ, but I believe you can."

While in seminary I worked unpaid ministering in a local church. After three years of observing my ministry, the elders of the church ordained me. In doing so they were confirming their belief that God had called me to the gospel ministry.

The Elders did not give me authority in ordaining me. They acknowledged what they had observed regarding my calling by God. The next year I completed seminary. The diploma did not grant me authority, it was the seminary's acknowledgement that I had successfully completed their course of study.

So both "pieces of paper" did not convey authority nor were they intended to. To claim they did is misrepresentation of the facts.

==

I have been a member of a number of ordination councils since my ordination. The first question we ask is for the person to share their conversion experience and their understanding of God's calling on their life. My signature on the certificates indicates that I find their statement that God has called and prepared them for ministry to be credible.

What I have described is parallel to the process of the non-denominational churches I have worked with or am familiar with.

Some here seem to be grasping for straws and straw men.

 

[Norah63]

Reward means reward, not money.
Is a bottle of white out a nasty put down?
Just kiddin', Tough hide only to post on christian forums

 

[drstevej]

The bottle was an encouragement for you to not ignore 1 Timothy 5:17-18

17 Let the elders who rule well be counted worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in the word and doctrine. 18 For the Scripture says, “You shall not muzzle an ox while it treads out the grain,”[a] and, “The laborer is worthy of his wages.”

The word here is μισθός

μισθός, μισθοῦ, ὁ (from Homer down), the Sept. for שָׂכָר, also for מַשְׂכֹּרֶת, etc.;
1. dues paid for work; wages, hire: Romans 4:4 (κατά ὀφείλημα in a prov., Luke 10:7 and 1 Timothy 5:18; Matthew 20:8; James 5:4; Jude 1:11 (on which see ἐκχέω, at the end); μισθός ἀδικίας, wages obtained by iniquity, Acts 1:18; 2 Peter 2:15 (cf. Winer's Grammar, § 30, 1 a.).

 

[Phantasman]

That cuts both ways. Surely the NHL are not going to stab themselves. I think the operative word is "tried." The RCC "tried" to destroy many things but the existence of the NHL, etc. proves they could not do it. There was no RCC until 1375. I refuse to believe that the 300+ bishops, at Nicaea, all of whom had survived years of persecution, were all corrupt. And if i am going to accept the NHL, I want to see some solid gold evidence. You got any of that? Or just your subjective opinion?

Then why, in Constantinople (381 AD), was this added to the Nicene Creed?

In one holy catholic and apostolic Church; we acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; we look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.

Whether it is called the RCC or the catholic Church (by the bishops theology) doesn't matter. They believed the same.

Reading the NHL compares the theology as if one were returned to the 4th century, and can decide if they choose the bishops of Constantine or not. Since the greater majority of bishops (and elders of different theologies) didn't show up at Nicaea, we have a reason to see why. Obviously to me, they feared the earthly power of persecution of the catholics and Constantine, and stayed on their spiritual paths.

If one is trained in truth (by another), they are a slave. If one seeks the truth, he finds it and is free. Christ said this, not me.

 

[Phantasman]

The bottle was an encouragement for you to not ignore 1 Timothy 5:17-18

17 Let the elders who rule well be counted worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in the word and doctrine. 18 For the Scripture says, “You shall not muzzle an ox while it treads out the grain,”[a] and, “The laborer is worthy of his wages.”

The word here is μισθός

Yeah, yeah. And 1 Timothy 6 says:
For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.

I don't even believe that. Adultery doesn't seem to be true of that statement.

This makes more spiritual sense:

As for ourselves, let each one of us dig down after the root of evil which is within one, and let one pluck it out of one's heart from the root. It will be plucked out if we recognize it. But if we are ignorant of it, it takes root in us and produces its fruit in our heart. It masters us. We are its slaves. It takes us captive, to make us do what we do not want; and what we do want, we do not do. It is powerful because we have not recognized it. While it exists it is active. Ignorance is the mother of all evil. Ignorance will result in death, because those who come from ignorance neither were nor are nor shall be. [...] will be perfect when all the truth is revealed. For truth is like ignorance: while it is hidden, it rests in itself, but when it is revealed and is recognized, it is praised, inasmuch as it is stronger than ignorance and error. It gives freedom. The Word said, "If you know the truth, the truth will make you free" (Jn 8:32). Ignorance is a slave. Knowledge is freedom. If we know the truth, we shall find the fruits of the truth within us.-Philip

One either see's it or they don't.

 

[ananda]

Would you consider being a preacher if they didn't get paid? If you are a preacher, would you quit if you could longer get paid for it?

All faithful believers are commissioned by Messiah to be "preachers". What's the point of passing around money to one another, if everyone ends up with the same amount?

 

[Der Alte]

Preachers aren't called by God. They go to school for their authority.

Rubbish! This shows you don't know beans about pastors. Those who are first called to be pastors, then follow the directive in 1 Tim 2:15. A diploma does not confer authority on anyone. Whatever "authority" a pastor has is conferred by the church. And whatever the church giveth the church taketh away.

A pastor friend of mine was voted out of his church by a small majority. He asked to be allowed to remain for a few months until his child graduated from HS. He was adamantly refused. He went to attend an association meeting about 35 miles away when he returned all the locks on the church bldgs were changed. This shows how much "authority" the pastor had. The minority called him as their pastor and they established another congregation nearby.

The pastor of the church I now serve, served as a foreign missionary for 13 years. Nobody does that unless they have been called. When they volunteer for missions, they are certainly not looking for authority and large salaries. The LDS and their GA have no monopoly on calling.

As it was already addressed, the General Authorities do nothing but their callings. These "preachers" have time to get real jobs instead of mooching off members of their congregation.

My pastor is a certified counselor. He pastors the church full time and much of his time is taken up by counseling. Go tell the GA to get full time jobs, then you might be justified in telling other churches how to do their business.

 

[Moodshadow]

Preachers aren't called by God. They go to school for their authority.

As it was already addressed, the General Authorities do nothing but their callings. These "preachers" have time to get real jobs instead of mooching off members of their congregation.

And that stipend you mentioned that is given by the LDS church to its general authorities? Last I heard a stipend consists of real, honest-to-goodness legal tender/cash/money/bucks/funds/whatever-you-want-to-call it. You know what else, I just looked up the word "stipend," just to make sure I have my facts straight, and guess what I found. Check out definition No. 2, if you will:

sti·pend [stahy-pend]
noun
1. a periodic payment, especially a scholarship or fellowship allowance granted to a student.
2. fixed or regular pay; salary.

So maybe they call it a "stipend" to the members, but there it is (courtesy of dictionary.com), Ladies and Gentlemen. A stipend is money paid to the general authorities, probably even regularly, just like other preachers/pastors/ministers receive, and there's just no getting around this one.

And by the way, "mooching off the congregation" is a pretty nasty - not to mention hypocritical - phrase. In the world of real Christianity, congregations willingly contribute of their resources, fully aware that their pastor's salary will be paid from the funds, and that no one is going to be misrepresenting to them that their minister is serving only out of love for the Lord - but oh, yeah, what we're giving him is a "stipend," not a salary.