Circumcision & the Sabbath?

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Do they go hand-in-hand? If one fails to keep one or the other they are a breaker of the Law... and yet Paul says:

Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.

For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
 

Cribstyl

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The seventh day is a memorial of creation, that's not meaningless.
That's not a false statement. Yes, the chidren of Israel were commanded to "sabbath" because God rested in creation.
The fact that God made sabbath a sign of the mosaic covenant carries much weight.
Under the new covenant Christ commands the ordinance of communion in memorial of Him.
1Cr 11:25
After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.




The fact that sabbath is a old covenant requirement
is no secret in the scriptures.

Hbr 8:13
In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Col 2:16
Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
 
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maco

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That's not a false statement. Yes, the chidren of Israel were commanded to "sabbath" because God rested in creation.
The fact that God made sabbath a sign of the mosaic covenant carries much weight.
Under the new covenant Christ commands the ordinance of communion in memorial of Him.
1Cr 11:25
After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.

The fact that sabbath is a old covenant requirement
is no secret in the scriptures.

Hbr 8:13
In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Col 2:16
Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:


God blessed the seventh day and made it holy because it was the cap of His creation week.

[FONT=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]Exodus 20:11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens, the earth, the sea, and everything in them; but on the seventh day he rested[FONT=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]. That is why the Lord blessed the Sabbath day, set it apart and called it holy.

The seventh day is surly a memorial of creation.
[/FONT]
[/FONT]
The seventh day was blessed, sanctified and called holy long before a covenant or even a law was ever enacted. Something that has been blessed by God, sanctified by God and called holy and good by God has meaning and value to God's children because they love Him. The only one who wants to do away with the things that are valuable to God is Satan. He did it with the seventh day and he's doing it with marriage. How do you feel about marriage? Have you done away with that yet or counted as meaningless?
 
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Cribstyl

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God blessed the seventh day and made it holy because it was the cap of His creation week.
What in the world is "cap of His creation week?" Where can we read it in the bible?.
[FONT=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]Exodus 20:11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens, the earth, the sea, and everything in them; but on the seventh day he rested[FONT=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]. That is why the Lord blessed the Sabbath day, set it apart and called it holy.[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]

[FONT=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]The seventh day is surly a memorial of creation.[/FONT]
[/FONT]
[/FONT]
The seventh day was blessed, sanctified and called holy long before a covenant or even a law was ever enacted.


Something that has been blessed by God, sanctified by God and called holy and good by God has meaning and value to God's children because they love Him. The only one who wants to do away with the things that are valuable to God is Satan. He did it with the seventh day and he's doing it with marriage. How do you feel about marriage? Have you done away with that yet or counted as meaningless?
All this talk is flim flam that may stick on people who are ignorant of what God's word says. Ex 2O:11 is saying; The God who worked six days rested on the seventh day. It does not say the man worked any day, so we're not talking about man working or resting on the seventh day of creation.
The text says the sabbath is blessed because God rested on the seventh day of creation.
 
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maco

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What in the world is "cap of His creation week?" Where can we read it in the bible?.
[FONT=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]Exodus 20:11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens, the earth, the sea, and everything in them; but on the seventh day he rested[FONT=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]. That is why the Lord blessed the Sabbath day, set it apart and called it holy.[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]

[FONT=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]The seventh day is surly a memorial of creation.[/FONT]
[/FONT]
[/FONT]
The seventh day was blessed, sanctified and called holy long before a covenant or even a law was ever enacted.
All this talk is flim flam that may stick on people who are ignorant of what God's word says. Ex 2O:11 is saying; The God who worked six days rested on the seventh day. It does not say the man worked any day, so we're not talking about man working or resting on the seventh day of creation.
The text says the sabbath is blessed because God rested on the seventh day of creation.


You see, the thing is, God says not everyone, whether Christian or not, will see or hear what He says so I don't expect everyone to be blessed by honoring the seventh day. I don't expect everyone to value the seventh day for the simple fact that God blessed it, sanctified it and called it holy and it was very good. I don't expect everyone, whether Christian or not, to see same sex marriages as ungodly and against God so I have learned not to fight those who do not see these things because there are so many who do that I can fellowship with.
 
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God blessed the seventh day and made it holy because it was the cap of His creation week.

[FONT=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]Exodus 20:11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens, the earth, the sea, and everything in them; but on the seventh day he rested[FONT=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]. That is why the Lord blessed the Sabbath day, set it apart and called it holy.

The seventh day is surly a memorial of creation.
[/FONT]
[/FONT]
The seventh day was blessed, sanctified and called holy long before a covenant or even a law was ever enacted. Something that has been blessed by God, sanctified by God and called holy and good by God has meaning and value to God's children because they love Him. The only one who wants to do away with the things that are valuable to God is Satan. He did it with the seventh day and he's doing it with marriage. How do you feel about marriage? Have you done away with that yet or counted as meaningless?
So are you saying we need to remember creation? Why? I live in the country and awe at creation all the time. Is it a constant thing to do on a weekly basis? No!!! Do I forget about God? Never!! This certainly doesn't mean I don't focus on what I may be doing at the moment.
 
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What in the world is "cap of His creation week?" Where can we read it in the bible?.


You see, the thing is, God says not everyone, whether Christian or not, will see or hear what He says so I don't expect everyone to be blessed by honoring the seventh day. I don't expect everyone to value the seventh day for the simple fact that God blessed it, sanctified it and called it holy and it was very good. I don't expect everyone, whether Christian or not, to see same sex marriages as ungodly and against God so I have learned not to fight those who do not see these things because there are so many who do that I can fellowship with.
So where is your contentment? There is nothing in the New Testament to base a 7th day Sabbath on as a requirement for the Christian. It simply isn't in the covenant based on promises. OTH my Sabbath rest is Jesus as He offered. I took Him up on His word. He offers something the 7th day Sabbath never did and can't provide.
 
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maco

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So are you saying we need to remember creation? Why? I live in the country and awe at creation all the time. Is it a constant thing to do on a weekly basis? No!!! Do I forget about God? Never!! This certainly doesn't mean I don't focus on what I may be doing at the moment.

Like I said, not everyone will see or hear what God is saying.
 
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There is this part in Irenaeus letter to the Magnesians that really caught my attention to this debate. Ireneaus wrote letters on his way to his martyrdom in Rome, roughly around 107AD (middle of Trajan's reign 98-117, though some think under Hadrian's reign 117-138). This means that Irenaeus is really around before any formal Catholic institutions are around, him being alive in the first Century and very early Second.

In chapters 8 through 10 he discusses Christianity's relationship with Judaism. His words are as follows:

8: Do not be deceived by strange doctrines or antiquated myths since they are worthless. For if we continue to live in accordance with Judaism, we admit that we have not received grace. For the most godly prophets lived in accordance with Christ Jesus. This is why they were persecuted, being inspired as they were by his grace in order that those who are disobedient might be fully convinced that there is one God who revealed himself through Jesus Christ his Son who is his Word that come forth from silence, who in every respect pleased the one who sent him.

9: If then, those who had lived according to the ancient practices came to the newness of hope, no longer keeping the sabbath but living in accordance with the Lord's day, on which our life also arose through him and his death (which some deny) the mystery through which we came to believe, and because of which we patiently endure, in order that we may be found to be disciples of Jesus Christ, our only teacher. How can we possibly live without him whom even the prophets, who were his disciples in the Spirit were expecting as their teacher? This is why the one for whom they rightly waited raised them from the dead when he came.

10:Therefore, let us not be unaware of his goodness. For is he were to imitate the way we act, we are lost. Therefore, having become his disciples, let us learn to live in accordance with Christianity. For whoever is called by any other name than this one does not belong to God. Throw out, therefore, the bad yeast which has become stale and sour, and reach for the new yeast which is Jesus Christ. Be salted with him so that none of your become rotten, for by your odor you will be convicted. It is utterly absurd to profess Jesus Christ and to practice Judaism. For Christianity did not believe in Judaism but Judaism in Christianity, in which every tongue believed and was brought together to God.


This passage is a longer quote I know, and there are many tangential issues within this long passage, but the point is, to Irenaeus, that keeping the Saturday as Sabbath was the opposite of what a Christian should do. Instead, we should keep the Lord's day (Sunday) because Christ rose, and Christ is the hope of our Salvation, not the Jewish law. His words are pretty harsh, but they seem effective.

Not that we should make a doctrine off of Irenaeus, but it is interesting to ponder, and think about.

For me, personally, I like the letter of the Jerusalem Council. This is the Apostles deciding what is fit for Gentiles to keep. (Hint, it doesn't mention Sabbath at all)

Acts 15:23-29

"They wrote this letter by them:
The Apostles, the Elders, and the Brethren, to the Brethren who are of the Gentiles in Antioch, Syria, and Cilicia, Greetings:

Since we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling yours souls, saying "You must be circumcised and keep the law," to whom we have no such commandment, it seemed good to us being assembled with one accord to send chosen men to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. We have therefore sent Judas and Silas who will also report the same things by word of mouth, for it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well.

Farewell."

The highlight of course is: "to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things" which the list does not include strict Sabbath laws. The gentiles never had a practice like the Jews in respect to the 7th Day, and it appears that the Apostles did not find the need to request that they keep it. Therefore, for me, it is not a burden that any gentile has to worry about.
 
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maco

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There is this part in Irenaeus letter to the Magnesians that really caught my attention to this debate. Ireneaus wrote letters on his way to his martyrdom in Rome, roughly around 107AD (middle of Trajan's reign 98-117, though some think under Hadrian's reign 117-138). This means that Irenaeus is really around before any formal Catholic institutions are around, him being alive in the first Century and very early Second.

In chapters 8 through 10 he discusses Christianity's relationship with Judaism. His words are as follows:

8: Do not be deceived by strange doctrines or antiquated myths since they are worthless. For if we continue to live in accordance with Judaism, we admit that we have not received grace. For the most godly prophets lived in accordance with Christ Jesus. This is why they were persecuted, being inspired as they were by his grace in order that those who are disobedient might be fully convinced that there is one God who revealed himself through Jesus Christ his Son who is his Word that come forth from silence, who in every respect pleased the one who sent him.

9: If then, those who had lived according to the ancient practices came to the newness of hope, no longer keeping the sabbath but living in accordance with the Lord's day, on which our life also arose through him and his death (which some deny) the mystery through which we came to believe, and because of which we patiently endure, in order that we may be found to be disciples of Jesus Christ, our only teacher. How can we possibly live without him whom even the prophets, who were his disciples in the Spirit were expecting as their teacher? This is why the one for whom they rightly waited raised them from the dead when he came.

10:Therefore, let us not be unaware of his goodness. For is he were to imitate the way we act, we are lost. Therefore, having become his disciples, let us learn to live in accordance with Christianity. For whoever is called by any other name than this one does not belong to God. Throw out, therefore, the bad yeast which has become stale and sour, and reach for the new yeast which is Jesus Christ. Be salted with him so that none of your become rotten, for by your odor you will be convicted. It is utterly absurd to profess Jesus Christ and to practice Judaism. For Christianity did not believe in Judaism but Judaism in Christianity, in which every tongue believed and was brought together to God.


This passage is a longer quote I know, and there are many tangential issues within this long passage, but the point is, to Irenaeus, that keeping the Saturday as Sabbath was the opposite of what a Christian should do. Instead, we should keep the Lord's day (Sunday) because Christ rose, and Christ is the hope of our Salvation, not the Jewish law. His words are pretty harsh, but they seem effective.

Not that we should make a doctrine off of Irenaeus, but it is interesting to ponder, and think about.

For me, personally, I like the letter of the Jerusalem Council. This is the Apostles deciding what is fit for Gentiles to keep. (Hint, it doesn't mention Sabbath at all)

Acts 15:23-29

"They wrote this letter by them:
The Apostles, the Elders, and the Brethren, to the Brethren who are of the Gentiles in Antioch, Syria, and Cilicia, Greetings:

Since we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling yours souls, saying "You must be circumcised and keep the law," to whom we have no such commandment, it seemed good to us being assembled with one accord to send chosen men to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. We have therefore sent Judas and Silas who will also report the same things by word of mouth, for it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well.

Farewell."

The highlight of course is: "to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things" which the list does not include strict Sabbath laws. The gentiles never had a practice like the Jews in respect to the 7th Day, and it appears that the Apostles did not find the need to request that they keep it. Therefore, for me, it is not a burden that any gentile has to worry about.

This all sounds nice and sweet but without biblical support. The spirit of Antichrist was forming in the days of the apostles. Many of the founding fathers of holy Rome lived during times of the apostles. Their history and timeline has been laid out and prophesied in the Bible hundreds of years before they exited. Unlockingbibleprophecy.com
 
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This all sounds nice and sweet but without biblical support. The spirit of Antichrist was forming in the days of the apostles. Many of the founding fathers of holy Rome lived during times of the apostles. Their history and timeline has been laid out and prophesied in the Bible hundreds of years before they exited. Unlockingbibleprophecy.com
If you wish to discuss that site start a thread on it.
 
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LarryP2

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Any argument that Christians must keep any part of the Mosaic Law is just dishonest about the structure and implementation of the Old Testament law, and indicates a severe ignorance about its applications. There are 613 Commandments, all of which are equally important, and all of them must be kept. Or none of them. There is NO distinction in the Mosaic Law between "ritualistic" and "moral" law. Sabbattarian Christians make that self-serving distinction purely out of convenience. They have picked a few of the 613 Commandments at random, based on the ones that happen to tickle their fancy. That is dishonest to the intent of the Law.

If you were to approach an rabbinical expert on the Mosaic Law, and announce self-righteously that you are "keeping the Ten Commandments," they would look on you as though you are mentally deranged. Under Mosaic Law, there is no such a thing as the "Ten Commandments." What we know as the "Decalogue" is subsumed into the overall structure of the 613 Commandments. Judaism does not regard the ten commandments as anything special in relationship to the other 603 Commandments.

Out of the mandatory 613 Mosaic laws, Sabbattarians pick and choose a tiny handful that happily coincide with their overall goals of preening self-righteousness over other Christians. They flatter themselves all too easily. If you understand the way the Mosaic law works, all they have merely done is make themselves looks foolish. The Apostles repeatedly denounced such behavior as "Judaizing." The Apostles were experts on the Mosaic Law. Sabbattarians are not.

For Christians, Colossians 2:16-17 means what it says.

For Christians, the AD 50 Council of Jerusalem emphatically means what it says: Gentile Christians shall not be bound by the Mosaic law.

Any argument that the Sabbath is a memorial of Creation indicates an profound ignorance of the original Hebrew that both Genesis and Exodus were written in. The writer of the book of Genesis took great pains to make it clear that the Sabbath did not begin at the 7th day of Creation. Hebrew scholars have made that point absolutely clear. The Sabbath commandment was not given to the Children of Israel until at least a month after their delivery from Egyptian slavery. Meanwhile, they would have unintentionally broken the Sabbath at least four times during their crossing of the Sinai. There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that anyone kept the Sabbath prior to Sinai. NONE!

Christians began worshiping on Sunday no later than 1 week after the Resurrection. Christ then Ascended on a Sunday. The Day of Pentecost, the Church's Birthday was on a Sunday. It would have been BIZARRE if the early Christians had continued to keep the Sabbath, given the impact those three events clearly would have had on them. Why were all the early Christians in one place on a Sunday when the Day of Pentecost took place? Because they had started doing so in honor of the Resurrection. By the Day of Pentecost, it was an entrenched Christian custom already.

The argument for keeping just one commandment out of the 613 of the Mosaic Law simply denigrates the obvious meaning of the crucifixion, the Resurrection, the Ascension and the Day of Pentecost. It is a theory of "Partial Atonement." It is an argument that one must keep the Mosaic Law, because Christ's sacrifice is not enough.

If you want to keep the Sabbath and have some integrity, you need to go through the full-scale conversion process to Judaism that is required. It is extremely highly-unlikely any Sabbattarian Christian would do that. For an unconverted Gentile to keep the Sabbath is such a serious offense, it requires the imposition of the Death Penalty. Christians who keep the Sabbath are as bizarre as if they suddenly developed a yen to sacrifice some animals in their backyard temple.
 
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maco

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Any argument that Christians must keep any part of the Mosaic Law is just dishonest about the structure and implementation of the Old Testament law, and indicates a severe ignorance about its applications. There are 613 Commandments, all of which are equally important, and all of them must be kept. Or none of them. There is NO distinction in the Mosaic Law between "ritualistic" and "moral" law. Sabbattarian Christians make that self-serving distinction purely out of convenience. They have picked a few of the 613 Commandments at random, based on the ones that happen to tickle their fancy. That is dishonest to the intent of the Law.

If you were to approach an rabbinical expert on the Mosaic Law, and announce self-righteously that you are "keeping the Ten Commandments," they would look on you as though you are mentally deranged. Under Mosaic Law, there is no such a thing as the "Ten Commandments." What we know as the "Decalogue" is subsumed into the overall structure of the 613 Commandments. Judaism does not regard the ten commandments as anything special in relationship to the other 603 Commandments.

Out of the mandatory 613 Mosaic laws, Sabbattarians pick and choose a tiny handful that happily coincide with their overall goals of preening self-righteousness over other Christians. They flatter themselves all too easily. If you understand the way the Mosaic law works, all they have merely done is make themselves looks foolish. The Apostles repeatedly denounced such behavior as "Judaizing." The Apostles were experts on the Mosaic Law. Sabbattarians are not.

For Christians, Colossians 2:16-17 means what it says.

For Christians, the AD 50 Council of Jerusalem emphatically means what it says: Gentile Christians shall not be bound by the Mosaic law.

Any argument that the Sabbath is a memorial of Creation indicates an profound ignorance of the original Hebrew that both Genesis and Exodus were written in. The writer of the book of Genesis took great pains to make it clear that the Sabbath did not begin at the 7th day of Creation. Hebrew scholars have made that point absolutely clear. The Sabbath commandment was not given to the Children of Israel until at least a month after their delivery from Egyptian slavery. Meanwhile, they would have unintentionally broken the Sabbath at least four times during their crossing of the Sinai. There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that anyone kept the Sabbath prior to Sinai. NONE!

Christians began worshiping on Sunday no later than 1 week after the Resurrection. Christ then Ascended on a Sunday. The Day of Pentecost, the Church's Birthday was on a Sunday. It would have been BIZARRE if the early Christians had continued to keep the Sabbath, given the impact those three events clearly would have had on them. Why were all the early Christians in one place on a Sunday when the Day of Pentecost took place? Because they had started doing so in honor of the Resurrection. By the Day of Pentecost, it was an entrenched Christian custom already.

The argument for keeping just one commandment out of the 613 of the Mosaic Law simply denigrates the obvious meaning of the crucifixion, the Resurrection, the Ascension and the Day of Pentecost. It is a theory of "Partial Atonement." It is an argument that one must keep the Mosaic Law, because Christ's sacrifice is not enough.

If you want to keep the Sabbath and have some integrity, you need to go through the full-scale conversion process to Judaism that is required. It is extremely highly-unlikely any Sabbattarian Christian would do that. For an unconverted Gentile to keep the Sabbath is such a serious offense, it requires the imposition of the Death Penalty. Christians who keep the Sabbath are as bizarre as if they suddenly developed a yen to sacrifice some animals in their backyard temple.

Man counts 613, God counts 10 and writes them with His own finger. The interesting thing is that the Ten Commandments are the only part of the Bible written with God's own finger.
 
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