Your problem with Islam.

[steve_bakr]

Why is it that the actions of a murderous mob are used to draw conclusions about a religion? Why not consult religious scholars?

 

[forGod1]

For those that have a problem with Islam and Muslims. Is it the first world, third world or entire scene of islam/muslims that you object to?

a miracle-less,braindead religion.. poo poo, so to speak

 

[scraparcs]

If a woman must have authority over men, how does that work in Islam?

 

[dlamberth]

a miracle-less,braindead religion.. poo poo, so to speak

Oh...there clearly are miracles in Islam. And Algebra emerged out of those in the Muslim religion. If you think about it, ALL of our modern engineering feats rest on the work done by those whom you derail as brain dead.

.

 

[TG123]

For those that have a problem with Islam and Muslims. Is it the first world, third world or entire scene of islam/muslims that you object to?

I have no problem with Muslims, at least the overwhelming majority of them who, like almost everyone else, are kind and loving and considerate people.

I have a problem with Islam denying the divinity, death and resurrection of Jesus. I do have a problem with the Quran being proclaimed as God's words and with Muhammad being proclaimed as His prophet. I believe that the scientific and historical errors found in the Quran and hadiths very conclusively show evidence that Islam is not from God. I don't have a greater problem with Islam than I do with atheism or Judaism or Buddhism or any other non-Christian religion or world-view. I wish that all people come to be saved in Christ, Muslims and non-Muslims.

To be honest, I have less of a problem with Islam and Muslims than I do with some non-Muslims, particularly Christians, who slander and demonize Islam and paint all Muslims with the same brush. Their hypocritical and sometimes hateful actions and words to some represent Christians. Far worse, to some they may also represent the Gospel, and cause people to turn away from Jesus. Slander and hatred and violence are always wrong, and are no less wrong when some Muslims do these things- but at least neither Bin Laden or Seleka or Osama Abdullah for that matter claims to be Christian.

 

[muslimsoldier4life]

If a woman must have authority over men, how does that work in Islam?

Well, being that nothing in Christianity (OT and NT) has ever given women that right either, I think you're barking up the wrong tree.

 

[wn123455]

I have no problem with Muslims, at least the overwhelming majority of them who, like almost everyone else, are kind and loving and considerate people.

I have a problem with Islam denying the divinity, death and resurrection of Jesus. I do have a problem with the Quran being proclaimed as God's words and with Muhammad being proclaimed as His prophet. I believe that the scientific and historical errors found in the Quran and hadiths very conclusively show evidence that Islam is not from God. I don't have a greater problem with Islam than I do with atheism or Judaism or Buddhism or any other non-Christian religion or world-view. I wish that all people come to be saved in Christ, Muslims and non-Muslims.

To be honest, I have less of a problem with Islam and Muslims than I do with some non-Muslims, particularly Christians, who slander and demonize Islam and paint all Muslims with the same brush. Their hypocritical and sometimes hateful actions and words to some represent Christians. Far worse, to some they may also represent the Gospel, and cause people to turn away from Jesus. Slander and hatred and violence are always wrong, and are no less wrong when some Muslims do these things- but at least neither Bin Laden or Seleka or Osama Abdullah for that matter claims to be Christian.

I hope you are not referring to me. I am just against islamists. I do not see any problems with muslims. There are peaceful muslim sects like the Ahmadiyya sect.

 

[GabrielWithoutWings]

What do you mean by this?

I mean that Islam sprung up out of Arab culture. In fact, it was a backlash against many parts of Arab culture at the time.

Generally speaking, when someone posts something negative about Islam, you'll find a lot Muslims defending it by saying that it's the surrounding culture and not Islam that's to blame.

Things like honor killings and child brides... that sort of thing.

It is strict adherence to Islaam that allowed us to reach our Golden Age (as known by the West). It is the abandonment of Islaam in its pure form (i.e. its fundamentals) that has brought us to the state we are in.

Actually, it was the translation into Arabic the works of the Greek Pagan philosophers that sparked the Islamic Golden Age. "Getting back to the fundamentals" is what killed it.

There is such a thing known as "Islaamic art" - and it's not just limited to calligraphy, it's also present in our architecture. And then, of course, there is our poetry. But our religion is not meant to give "sexiness" or "aesthetic beauty" - our religion is meant to make us better people by turning to God.

Anyway, what about this?

Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me [Exodus 20:4-6]

What about it? I'm not a Jew so this verse doesn't apply to me either and I criticize it just as much. This thread is about Islam so I'm giving an answer in reference to Islam.

We're not telling you to. We don't because we believe in God and the religion He sent down to us.

And we can have dogs, they just can't be kept in the same house unless it's for a legitimate reason (otherwise we have one "unit" of reward deducted from our book of good deeds).

Well, that's a no-go for me. My basset hound sleeps in the bed with me.

As far as what you believe... based upon the hadiths provided, what you're really believing in is a holy game of telephone.

"Hey. I heard it from somebody who heard it from somebody that the noble prophet might have said this, so I'm writing it down."

This is an example of culture and religion becoming hard to distinguish.

What do you mean by this?

I mean what I said. A great many Muslims seem to sit around waiting to get offended at anything and everything. And because there's no central authority, one can pick and choose which fatwas and hadiths to give weight to. If one were to run an experiment, I'd almost guarantee that people give weight to whatever they already disagree with.[/quote]

 

[GabrielWithoutWings]

Why is it that the actions of a murderous mob are used to draw conclusions about a religion? Why not consult religious scholars?

You're confusing drawing conclusions about a religion with drawing conclusions about the fruit of a religion. When a religion is used as a vehicle to justify the "purification" of a populace, then one should expect criticism.

It's rather difficult to consult religious scholars when you've been branded with a Cathar cross and are awaiting judgment from His Holiness's heretic-hunters. It's also rather difficult to consult religious scholars when you're a female in Pakistan who wants girls to read and ends up getting shot on a school bus.

It doesn't matter what the text says. It's what's practiced that counts.

By their fruits you shall know them and all that.

Thus I clothe my naked villainy
with old odd ends stol'n out of holy writ
and seem a saint, when most I play the Devil.

 

[steve_bakr]

You're confusing drawing conclusions about a religion with drawing conclusions about the fruit of a religion. When a religion is used as a vehicle to justify the "purification" of a populace, then one should expect criticism.

It's rather difficult to consult religious scholars when you've been branded with a Cathar cross and are awaiting judgment from His Holiness's heretic-hunters. It's also rather difficult to consult religious scholars when you're a female in Pakistan who wants girls to read and ends up getting shot on a school bus.

It doesn't matter what the text says. It's what's practiced that counts.

By their fruits you shall know them and all that.

Thus I clothe my naked villainy
with old odd ends stol'n out of holy writ
and seem a saint, when most I play the Devil.

You aren't getting the point. Just because the Ku Klux Klan murdered people of color does not make Christianity a racist murderous religion, right? Just because a mob claims allegiance to a religion does not make its actions a fruit of that religion. Just because there is genocide in the Old Testament does not mean that Christianity stems from a genocidal tradition.

 

[BruceDLimber]

I actually feel very sorry for Muslims; they are members of a violent cult made up by a self-proclaimed prophet.

Oh, so you never read this rule in the forum's rules, huh?:

• Mutual respect means that neither Christians nor non-Christians will mock, degrade or belittle each others religious beliefs....

We are not amused.

 

[TG123]

I hope you are not referring to me. I am just against islamists. I do not see any problems with muslims. There are peaceful muslim sects like the Ahmadiyya sect.

In your posts discussing the mass murder and ethnic cleansing of Muslims in Burma and CAR, I have yet to find one word of condemnation for the murders of Muslim civilians. Your condemnation is reserved for violent Muslims, and the media, which to your disgust shares stories of innocent Muslims suffering.

There are people who claim they don't hate Jews, just "the bankers". They claim that the Holocaust was invented or exaggerated by the Jew controlled media, and that the Talmud and Old Testament are evil and racist books that call for Jews to kill non-Jews. They do admit that there are "some good Jews", although whenever the talk about Jews it's almost always to do with banks, communism, and the immorality of Hollywood, as well as bad things that Israel does.

But they will loudly say that they are NOT antisemites and that they have NOTHING against Jews.

I kind of see you the same way I see them. Both you and them claim to have nothing against the people groups you always say negative things about, while ignoring bad things done to them. But your conduct on this forum and their words online and around the family dinner table show something completely different.

 

[Zoness]

Some poster's attitudes and patterns definitely reflect a bit of white nationalism, that's kind of unnerving for all of us.

 

[GabrielWithoutWings]

You aren't getting the point. Just because the Ku Klux Klan murdered people of color does not make Christianity a racist murderous religion, right? Just because a mob claims allegiance to a religion does not make its actions a fruit of that religion. Just because there is genocide in the Old Testament does not mean that Christianity stems from a genocidal tradition.

I'm most certainly getting the point and you're wrong. The fact that there is genocide in the Old Testament very much means that Christianity stems from a genocidal tradition. Or were the Canaanites not people enough to count? Too long ago? Or did Christianity fall out of thin air with no parent in Judaism? This is what I'm talking about. As long as you think God thinks it's okay, it's perfectly fine. "Those Canaanites were lawless" and "Those Canaanites could have very well been much worse; we have to trust in God's plan for them" are the usual responses.

It very much makes it fruit of that religion if they're using the religion as a vehicle to further their agenda. Or did the Albigensian Crusade just fall out of the sky to the Pope's astonishment when he found out later?

Don't misunderstand me and think that I'm straight-up bashing Islam and Christianity. I get that a great deal of Muslims and Christians are good people. I get that the root of both religions is supposed to be goodness and all that. That doesn't make either one "bad." It just makes them able to be criticized.

 

[TG123]

Some poster's attitudes and patterns definitely reflect a bit of white nationalism, that's kind of unnerving for all of us.

White nationalism? Here?

 

[steve_bakr]

I'm most certainly getting the point and you're wrong. The fact that there is genocide in the Old Testament very much means that Christianity stems from a genocidal tradition. Or were the Canaanites not people enough to count? Too long ago? Or did Christianity fall out of thin air with no parent in Judaism? This is what I'm talking about. As long as you think God thinks it's okay, it's perfectly fine. "Those Canaanites were lawless" and "Those Canaanites could have very well been much worse; we have to trust in God's plan for them" are the usual responses.

It very much makes it fruit of that religion if they're using the religion as a vehicle to further their agenda. Or did the Albigensian Crusade just fall out of the sky to the Pope's astonishment when he found out later?

Don't misunderstand me and think that I'm straight-up bashing Islam and Christianity. I get that a great deal of Muslims and Christians are good people. I get that the root of both religions is supposed to be goodness and all that. That doesn't make either one "bad." It just makes them able to be criticized.

For the record, I don't think that God thinks genocide is OK, or ever was. You somehow made a rant out of that example by reading into it something that wasn't there.

But the point that I don't think you are getting is that crimes committed in the name of religion is not a "fruit" of that religion. At best, it is a perverted view of religion and the responsibility rests with the individual.

I also think that your view is biased because you don't seem to connect the many noble and charitable acts inspired by religion as "fruits." The scale is fixed.

Furthermore, if you study Christianity itself, you find that what is extolled is Charity and love of neighbor as yourself, even love of your enemies. If you see someone in need, you are told to lend a hand. Christianity is a peaceful religion.

Once you connect the crime of mobs or individuals with their nominal religion, you make a logical fallacy. It creates a bias.

The day after 9/11, for example, the Muslim world sent its condolences to America and religious scholars publicly stated that these attacks were against the Quran and Islam.

These efforts received virtually no attention and, FOX news in particularly, painted the picture of "Muslim" terrorists. A recent fatwa re-stated that terrorists are not Muslims and the only place they may go to is hell.

Yet, even today, the bias persists--i.e. in these very forums.

 

[smaneck]

Do you support the ethnic cleansing of the non-muslims in Mindanao?

Nope. I don't support ethnic cleansing anywhere.

My personal preference would be that countries have no borders.

 

[smaneck]

I have a problem with religious extremism/fundamentalism, regardless of the religion in question.
The media sometimes create the impression that contemporary Islam tends to be far less capable of debate, criticism and satire than other religions (case in point: Muhammad caricatures in sweden, the man hunt on Salman Rushdie), and that renders the whole religion somewhat suspect to me, but if there are believers out there who are NOT like that, I have got no problem with them whatsoever.

I think a lot of people don't quite understand Muslims reactions to these things (which is to justify them.) Generally speaking they can endure criticisms to their religion much better than insults to their prophet. It's a matter of honor for them. Metaphorically imperialism kicked the Islamic world in the groin and they have been trying to regain their manhood ever since.

What I do not like about Islam in general, however, is its rampant sexism, its rigid legalism, and a legal system that looks positively archaic and barbarian from the vantage point of the 21st century.

Unfortunately one of the ways they try and regain that manhood is at the expense of women.

 

[Rajni]

I have no problem with Islam what so even. What I have issues with are Fundamentalist...actually any Fundamentalist, be they Muslim, Christian, Atheist, Humanist, Hindu, Buddhist, Eco terrorist, Liberals, Conservatives, what ever. They are the ones that I see causing division and hatred between people.

^ This.

I think problems in religion stem more from black-and-white
fundamentalist thinking than anything else. Each religion (or
at least most, I would imagine) has a spectrum, from
radically fundamentalist to totally mellow.

I think the more that love is chosen over fear, the more
mellow a religion's representative will tend to be.

-

 

[TG123]

White nationalism? Here?

I think that on this section of the forum, there is a lot of stereotyping and demonization of Muslims and Islam, which sometimes goes as far as to support violence. The perpetrators are in most cases (and shamefully) Christians, and sometimes people of other beliefs/worldviews. Jews and Judaism are also targeted sometimes, ironically by some Muslims, who themselves are victims of this type of behaviour. I have heard that atheists and pagans are also sometimes treated this way, though I haven't seen it.

I haven't seen racial hatred on this part of the forum though, or anywhere else. Stereotyping and attacking people because of their faith and misrepresenting their beliefs is one thing, doing so for racial reasons is another. Both are wrong. I see a lot of religious bigotry on this forum. I haven't seen racism, or white nationalism.