The difference between MJ and Christianity?

etZion

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Please excuse my ignorance, but what is the difference between the two?

Im pretty interested.

My take is very generalized... I view it in the title. Messianic represents the Christian aspect, that specifically being faith in the Messiah of Israel, and Judaism represents the Judaism aspect, of Torah based faith.

I don't think the title Messianic, can represent any particular form of Christianity and I don't think the title of Judaism, can either. It is very broad, with two very different ends, within Messianic Judaism, some are simply Christians in every way, meaning the title really means nothing in that regard, maybe even deceptive, while others are practically Orthodox Judaism... And then there is everything in between, I do think Messianic Judaism, the purpose of carrying a different name, is intentional and purposed to a certain extant, to distance itself from Christianity, more in doctrine and not necessarily community.

Anyways, that is my take, hope that helps.
 
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HannibalFlavius

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A form of Judaism ;)

Yup, A sect of Judaism, not the same religion as Christianity.


It would be extremely hard for me to consider Messianic as a part of Christianity.


I am so often told that I am not a Christian, legalistic, of the devil, and viewed by most Christians as the one who comes in the church to cause confusion.

Two wholly separate Sabbath and feast days.
Two wholly separate views on the law.


Two Messiahs that look nothing like each other.
 
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Gxg (G²)

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Please excuse my ignorance, but what is the difference between the two?

Im pretty interested.
Hey Jade :)

If I may offer, when someone asks "Are you African-American or Black?", people tend to stare wondering "Why are you asking me to split between things that are interconnected?" as being African-American is an expression of being Black in the same way that being Afro-Hispanic or Afro-Asian is another expression of being Black. The same dynamic can occur when it comes to people saying things ignorantly such as "You're not Italian!!!" if they happen to have dark skin features/look akin to what you'd see in African-American culture (and I actually had a friend experience this.....his father was Italian and mother black, so he was dark-skinned with blue eyes/long silky hair).

Likewise, when it comes to the differences between Christianity and Messianic Judaism, it is often a matter of trying to create false distinctions that never existed throughout the history of the Early Church and afterward - Jewish believers in the Messiah have often called themselves "Christians" - or other terms used to describe the movement such as "Followers of the Way" and other things. In the past couple of decades, the emphasis on "Messianic Gentile" or "Messianic Jew" has come up to try to disconnect from Christianity - but Jews all over the world have noted where that was not necessary for them since the Apostles never did so.

There's the dynamic present in the Modern Messianic Judaism movement where the focus is trying to live out the rabbinic customs/practices of ancient Judaism - in light of Yeshua. And there are other elements in the camp that feel to be identified with the Church or Christianity means one isn't truly living out Jewish heritage or culture. For Jews already in the Church - paticularly liturgical circles (one person you could look up being Father James Bernstein )- they have often noted they had no real issue on the matter (more shared here and here in seeing A Brief History of Jewish Conversion if interested for study reference). And others felt that the Modern Messianic Jewish movement - for all the claims of trying to truly represent historic Judaism - often seemed to reflect the camp of Radical Protestant thouhght when it came to some of their stances.

But again, to be called "Messianic Jew" doesn't automatically mean being opposite of a Christian - it's simply another term to describe a Jewish follower of the Lord.

And on the same token, many have used the term "Messianic Jew" and it didn't mean anything remotely about believing in Yeshua as a Jewish person. Before/after the Messianic Jewish movement of the Modern era began in the 1960s/70s (as an expression of Evangelicalism), people felt "Messianic Jewish" is a bit elusive---for even within Judaism, others could say that they're Messianic since the goal of Judaism was always to point to a Savior. Where battle occurs within Judaism is discovering who truly qualifies to be the Messiah and which form of Judaism points to Him. Some felt it was Yeshua, whereas others felt it was a specific teacher or rabbi...and some even felt that it was Israel itself--both the OT nation of Israel and the current State of Israel--was to be considered the "Savior" ........and for some, the savior has yet to be revealed.


For examples of such, one can go to the following:
Since there are many who come into the modern Messianic Jewish movement from all ends of the spectrum within Judaism (i.e. Orthodox, Reform, Conservative, Chasidic, etc), many often consider themselves to be "Messianic" and those who disagree with them are simply different. For many, this factor is why many don't care to consider the Modern Day Movement of Messianic Judaism as truly the only one focused upon Jesus. Its not that Jesus isn't the Messiah and therefore those looking unto Him are not "Messianic"----but rather, its about what kind of Messianic one is...


So things can get intermixed.

But in general, for many Messianic Jews, to be called such is simply a way of expressing that they are Jewish followers of Yeshua - Jesus the Christ - and loyal to Him. They see no real difference between Chrisitanity and the Judaic worldview that Yeshua and the Apostles advocated. But they do see how many teachings/concepts coming from the Gentile world began to take over and claim to be the SOLE representation of Christianity when the early church was developing - leaving the original Jewish expression of Christianity to be forgotten......and bringing us to the current landscape of what we see today when others demonize Christianity because of bad actions (i.e. teaching Replacement Theology, Anti-Semitism, Marcionism/belieivng the OT has no relevance to believers or is in opposition to the New Covenant, etc.).

Much of the dynamics we see in our own time with the Messianic movement have already been reconciled within the times of the Early Church.

Even Jews in the secular world - who do not believe Yeshua is Messiah and yet are dedicated to Judaism - have noted the reality of where Christianity as it was developed originally was seen as an expression of Judaism....a Judaism believing in a Divine Messiah, which was rejected earlier and yet it is now being seen as acceptable. .(more discussed here), as Judaic scholar Daniel Boyarin noted best recently)


One of the best resources on the issue is entitled Border Lines: The Partition of Judaeo-Christianity by Daniel Boyarin. Border Lines: The Partition of Judaeo-Christianity is truly one of the best around:




border-lines-the-partition-of-judaeo-christianity.jpg


Daniel is the Taubman Professor of Talmudic Culture in the Departments of Near Eastern Studies and Rhetoric at the University of California, Berkeley. He is the author of Dying for God: Martyrdom and the Making of Christianity, Judaism and A Radical Jew: Paul and the Politics of Identity, and other books. In the read, Daniel does an excellent job of discussing what "Gentile Christianity” was always about in the introduction. In orienting the reader to his argument, Boyarin presents the basic assertions that the early rabbinic writings developed in response to burgeoning Gentile Christianity represented by figures like Justin Martyr. In his view, he felt that the rabbis sought to “set the bounds” of who is in and who is out of Judaism as they understood it in reaction to the claims of Gentile Christianity. Thus, within this discussion Boyarin defines the object of rabbis’ attention, Gentile Christianity, by stating:

[Gentile Christianity] refer to Christian converts from among non-Jews (and their descendants) who have neither a sense of genealogical attachment to the historical, physical people of Israel (Israel according to the flesh), nor an attachment (and frequently the exact opposite one) to the fleshly practices of that historical community”
[

Boyarin discusses as he does because the historical separation between Judaism and Christianity is often figured as a clearly defined break of a single entity into two separate religions - leading to the idea that there would have been one religion known as Judaism before the birth of Christ, which then took on a hybrid identity. ..with other assumptions being that certain beliefs and practices of this composite (even before its subsequent division) would have been identifiable as Christian or Jewish. Daniel Boyarin sought to make a striking case for a very different way of thinking about the historical development that is the partition of Judaeo-Christianity. For in his views, there were no characteristics or features that could be described as uniquely Jewish or Christian in late antiquity. Boyarin argues that Jesus-following Jews and Jews who did not follow Jesus lived on a cultural map in which beliefs, such as that in a second divine being, and practices, such as keeping kosher or maintaining the Sabbath, were widely and variably distributed. ..and he argues that the ultimate distinctions between Judaism and Christianity were imposed from above by "border-makers," heresiologists anxious to construct a discrete identity for Christianity. By defining some beliefs and practices as Christian and others as Jewish or heretical, they moved ideas, behaviors, and people to one side or another of an artificial border—and, Boyarin significantly contends, invented the very notion of religion. Really good stuff, IMHO...


More discussed in review of the book can be found elsewhere in one of the prominent MJish journals entitled Border Lines: The Partition of Judaeo Christianity - Kesher Journal, an excellent overview by Paul L. Saal who is the rabbi of Congregation Shuvah Yisrael, Simsbury, CT and eceived smicha from the Union of Messianic Jewish Congregations and has served on its steering committee for the past decade, presently as the chairperson of the Jewish Community Relations Committee. Apart from that, there are other places one can go for other reviews (i.e. here, here, etc).

And for other places:

 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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I have a question for you all. Replacement theology...dual covenant...any thoughts? I do not believe gentile Christianity "replaced" Israel. However, I do believe that they have been grafted in. However, I also believe that Jews that accept Yeshua as Messiah are Israel and true Judaism, not Rabbinic Judaism. However, with Yeshua's return, I believe this will change. This is all quoted below ;-)
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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I would say a Messianic Jew is a person with Jewish background that is now a follower of their Messiah, Yeshua. They can either be part of a "Christian" denomination or part of the "Messianic" movement. I think a Jewish person brought up as a Jew would feel more comfortable within the Messianic movement. For secular Jews it probably would not matter. There are Gentile Christians and Jewish Christians, but ALL Christians are "Messianic" (believe that Jesus/Yeshua is THE Messiah), just practice different forms of Christianity. Any of that make sense?
 
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Gxg (G²)

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Wouldn't it be fair to say that Messianic Judaism is a form of Christianity? That is the belief of being saved by faith in Jesus and his divinity?
You'd be accurate on the assessment - despite where many elements of the movement in the modern sense tend to not want to deal with it (though much of the Jewish world has long noted the dynamic you shared since they understand Messianic Judaism to simply be an attempt at expression of what Jewish Christianity/its various camps were about).

There was never a use of the term "Judaism" in the Early Church - and it is because of that issue that many Jews have had issue whenever it's enforced by others that Jewish believers in Messiah have to be identified with Messianic Judaism rather than calling what they do Jewish Christianity.

And when you understand the background of what Jewish Christianity was about in the times of the Apostles, you're better able to understand the intracies of how much of what we see today isn't a new issue ...but merely another expression of what occurred in the Early Church.

There are reasons many Jews have tended not to assume that the modern day expression of the Messianic Jewish movement was ever the final definition of what it meant to be a Messianic Jew. Theology itself in the Early Church doesn't lend itself to the idea to assume that anything pertaining to the OT was automatically within the negative (Which much of the Modern Messianic movement claims that it alone does) and only that within the NT was good. Those saying that anything in the New Covenant is opposed to the Old Covenant are simply doing the heresy of Marcionism - which tried to divorce the God of the OT from the God of the NT in a false scenario ...but the Early Church valued OT practice (more shared here, here, here) and thankfully combated him...

There's an excellent paper on the issue elsewhere if interested - as it address the Anti-Semitism present in Marcionism and other systems that developed to combat it and yet went in other directions. ..for the paper explores Ebionism (the idea of Gentiles having to keep all the OT/Torah in order to be approved by God) and Marcionism, two early church heresies which depict the two most antithetical forms of the Judaism-OT and Christianity-NT breach in early Christianity. It addresses Ebionism's philo-Semitlism and Marcionism’s chagrin for the Jewish roots of Christianity - both shown to be antecedents to certain contemporary heretical conceptions ...and both having a corrective found in Paul's metaphor of God’s revelatiory-redemptive olive tree (Romans 1/:/7-24) which aptly describes the dual necessity of the root and the branches, that is the Old and New Testaments.

And for practical example of where the Church NEVER lost its Jewish heritage, one need to go no further than Ancient Christianity - one expression being the Ethiopian Orthodox Church and its practices (from circumcision to kosher foods, Sabbath, etc.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oLq8NFMaax0

Some, again, will always have issue since they feel Christianity is diametrically opposed to Judaism. In their minds, "The Lord didn't come to start a new religion called Christianity!!! - and yet, they forge that neither did he start the term "Judaism" or "Messianic Judaism" at any point either when it came to describing others who followed him (as the term "Judaism" was used centuries after Christ) ...despite where others fight for the term as if the Lord was concerned on it. What matter was whether or not you were a disciple or not..

Acts 11:25-27 is very plain on the subject of how believers, both Jews and Gentiles, were called "Christians" in Antioch...but that didn't harm them. Some may wish to say it'd be better not to be called "Christian" because of alot of the baggage that comes with it since the term has been used to support a host of evils that I vehemently disagree with (i.e. imperialism, colonialism, slavery, associating Christianity with entertainment since many secular movie stars all claim to be "Christians", etc). And with that, I can understand why others prefer not to use the term. My only issue is that any term can be hijacked to mean something other than what it meant historically---just as the term "Messianic Judaism" has been hijacked by many to mean something that in many cases was simply a form of Judaizing/full-blown Judaism apart from Yeshua as Divine.

There has be a recognition of what a term meant and a willingness not to do "guilt-by-association" methodologies with terms. In some places where others have only be exposed to one formation of a term, I can be sensitive to it--but in other places, I'm more than comfortable with others being informed on how the term "Christian" is not something to condemn.
But some of them became obstinate; they refused to believe and publicly maligned the Way. So Paul left them. He took the disciples with him and had discussions daily in the lecture hall of Tyrannus.
Acts 19:8-10/Acts 19
But some of them became obstinate; they refused to believe and publicly maligned the Way. So Paul left them. He took the disciples with him and had discussions daily in the lecture hall of Tyrannus.
Acts 19:8-10 / Acts 19




Acts 19:23
[ The Riot in Ephesus ] About that time there arose a great disturbance about the Way.
Acts 19:22-24




Acts 22:4
I persecuted the followers of this Way to their death, arresting both men and women and throwing them into prison,




Acts 24:14
However, I admit that I worship the God of our fathers as a follower of the Way, which they call a sect. I believe everything that agrees with the Law and that is written in the Prophets,

Acts 24:22
Then Felix, who was well acquainted with the Way, adjourned the proceedings. "When Lysias the commander comes," he said, "I will decide your case."
Acts 24

Acts 11:26
and when he found him, he brought him to Antioch. So for a whole year Barnabas and Saul met with the church and taught great numbers of people. The disciples were called Christians first at Antioch.


Acts 11:26
and when he found him, he brought him to Antioch. So for a whole year Barnabas and Saul met with the church and taught great numbers of people. The disciples were called Christians first at Antioch.
Acts 11:25-27 (in Context) Acts 11 (Whole Chapter)




Apart from those following after Christ carrying the label of "THE WAY", prior to that it was even more simplified: You either were or you weren't a disciple----which is what all were know by ((Luke 10:25-37, Matthew 25:31-40)? and that they're also faithful to this (James 1:27)
Matthew 10:42
And if anyone gives even a cup of cold water to one of these little ones because he is my disciple, I tell you the truth, he will certainly not lose his reward."
Matthew 10:41-42

Luke 14:26
"If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters—yes, even his own life—he cannot be my disciple.
Luke 14:25-27/Luke 1

John 13:35
By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another."
John 13:34-36/John 13

Acts 6:7
So the word of God spread. The number of disciples in Jerusalem increased rapidly, and a large number of priests became obedient to the faith.
Acts 6:6-8 / Acts 6


Acts 9:1
[ Saul's Conversion ] Meanwhile, Saul was still breathing out murderous threats against the Lord's disciples. He went to the high priest

Acts 9:36
In Joppa there was a disciple named Tabitha (which, when translated, is Dorcas ), who was always doing good and helping the poor.
Acts 9:35-37 /Acts 9




 
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Gxg (G²)

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I would say a Messianic Jew is a person with Jewish background that is now a follower of their Messiah, Yeshua. They can either be part of a "Christian" denomination or part of the "Messianic" movement. I think a Jewish person brought up as a Jew would feel more comfortable within the Messianic movement. For secular Jews it probably would not matter. There are Gentile Christians and Jewish Christians, but ALL Christians are "Messianic" (believe that Jesus/Yeshua is THE Messiah), just practice different forms of Christianity. Any of that make sense?
Good word:thumbsup:
 
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A

AbbaLove

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I am not 'just' a Christian - I am a Messianic Gentile. If I changed my icon to Christian I would not be allowed on this thread other than to ask questions, and it would be dishonest of me, as well.
Likewise some of us are not ‘just’ a Messianic Gentile, but a Christian follower/disciple of the Way. What seems like a perception at this Christian Forums website that a “Christian” is somehow inferior and NOT allowed to offer their take on the difference between Christianity and Messianic Judaism in this thread seems prejudicial. So are you actually saying in so many words that this thread is MJ Only when it comes to a “Christian” (who’s also a Messianic Gentile) from giving their perspective on the difference between Christianity and Messianic Judaism considering the new Keep It Simple SOP to which some Christians can agree.

Is Tishri1 aware that you as a Christian Minister will not permit a person wearing a “Christian” faith icon from offering a ‘balanced’ Christian perspective in this thread. Are you aware that there are “Christians” that agree with the SOPs wording (as I’ve previously stated in another thread). However, in that they are not ashamed to wear a Christian faith icon they chose not to display a MJ(Gentile) faith icon.
… making it clear that I am Christian minister, and found them to be very, very polite, interested in my (MJ) views (after I assured them I was not an MJ bigot). I had a chat with a guy in Mea Shearim - explained I was a Christian minister ….
Perhaps, what a few of us Christians need to display in our “signature” is something that indicates we don’t believe in replacement theology, that we Love Israel and agree with the new SOP. What about a signature that says, “I agree with the language of the SOP, but have chosen to wear a Christian faith icon.”

When coming to this forum I believe Lulav was displaying a “Protestant” faith icon, but now she wears no faith icon whatsoever. Is wearing a “Christian” faith icon in this CF MJ forum really despised to the point that even a “Christian” that agrees with the new SOP is still barred from offering their perspective on differences between Christianity and Messianic Judaism in this thread.

 
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Avodat

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Likewise some of us are not ‘just’ a Messianic Gentile, but a Christian follower/disciple of the Way. What seems like a perception at this Christian Forums website that a “Christian” is somehow inferior and NOT allowed to offer their take on the difference between Christianity and Messianic Judaism in this thread seems prejudicial. So are you actually saying in so many words that this thread is MJ Only when it comes to a “Christian” (who’s also a Messianic Gentile) from giving their perspective on the difference between Christianity and Messianic Judaism considering the new Keep It Simple SOP to which some Christians can agree.

Is Tishri1 aware that you as a Christian Minister will not permit a person wearing a “Christian” faith icon from offering a ‘balanced’ Christian perspective in this thread. Are you aware that there are “Christians” that agree with the SOPs wording (as I’ve previously stated in another thread). However, in that they are not ashamed to wear a Christian faith icon they chose not to display a MJ(Gentile) faith icon.


Perhaps, what a few of us Christians need to display in our “signature” is something that indicates we don’t believe in replacement theology, that we Love Israel and agree with the new SOP. What about a signature that says, “I agree with the language of the SOP. but have chosen to wear a Christian faith icon.”

When coming to this forum I believe Lulav was displaying a “Protestant” faith icon, but now she wears no faith icon whatsoever. Is wearing a “Christian” faith icon in this CF MJ forum really despised to the point that even a “Christian” that agrees with the new SOP is still barred from offering their perspective on differences between Christianity and Messianic Judaism in this thread.


Oh dear - you have twisted what I was saying so that it looks like something very different; I do not have any authority to say who can, and who can not, post anywhere on these fora - and I don't want it, either!

Let's start again. I do not post here with a Scroll icon just so that I can post here - I use the Scroll because my theology is MJ- Contramundum and I are both ministers working in the Church and promoting MJ teaching and views and we are accepted on that basis.

As I see it, if I changed my 'religion' to Christian the rules would allow me to post here provided I was a member (whatever that word means - no one knows) but I could not debate or teach.

Any thread that says MJ only is for MJs only - you have to be an MJ to post in it. However, ad hoc rules were introduced last summer that say that provided you show in your post, somewhere, that you are an MJ (as with GXG and Contramundum) you can still post in an MJ Only thread but, as you know, that is not uniformly applied. I have no idea what Lulav does, or why. As an Angel I would have thought she should be MJ in order to keeep us in order and set an example, but there are so many breaches of the rules now, since January, that I don't think anyone knows what is, or is not permitted any more. When I asked someone why they were not using an icon a few months ago I got into serious trouble so I don't bother now, and it seems no one else does, either.Please note that we are not permitted, by the rules, to discuss Modearators' actions.

I am therefore NOT trying to make a definitive response that you can quote and, on another thread, I have withdrawn from discussing what a new SoP might say - I really couldn't care less as, with the SoP and ad hoc rules, it is all far too confusing. I'll just sit and read my scroll, shaking in the corner, watching for unepected PMs!

I had better not say much more or I will be in trouble again - even this might be too much. Please see your Reps.
 
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HannibalFlavius

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Likewise some of us are not ‘just’ a Messianic Gentile, but a Christian follower/disciple of the Way. What seems like a perception at this Christian Forums website that a “Christian” is somehow inferior and NOT allowed to offer their take on the difference between Christianity and Messianic Judaism in this thread seems prejudicial. So are you actually saying in so many words that this thread is MJ Only when it comes to a “Christian” (who’s also a Messianic Gentile) from giving their perspective on the difference between Christianity and Messianic Judaism considering the new Keep It Simple SOP to which some Christians can agree.

Is Tishri1 aware that you as a Christian Minister will not permit a person wearing a “Christian” faith icon from offering a ‘balanced’ Christian perspective in this thread. Are you aware that there are “Christians” that agree with the SOPs wording (as I’ve previously stated in another thread). However, in that they are not ashamed to wear a Christian faith icon they chose not to display a MJ(Gentile) faith icon.

Perhaps, what a few of us Christians need to display in our “signature” is something that indicates we don’t believe in replacement theology, that we Love Israel and agree with the new SOP. What about a signature that says, “I agree with the language of the SOP, but have chosen to wear a Christian faith icon.”

When coming to this forum I believe Lulav was displaying a “Protestant” faith icon, but now she wears no faith icon whatsoever. Is wearing a “Christian” faith icon in this CF MJ forum really despised to the point that even a “Christian” that agrees with the new SOP is still barred from offering their perspective on differences between Christianity and Messianic Judaism in this thread.




LOL!

I sport a Messianic Icon and go into a Christi only forum and say,'' Hello, how is everyone?''

Then I get reported for being in a Christian only forum, and I am asked to accept the Nicene creed and change my icon to a Christian Icon in order to go and say anything in a Christian only forum.

Then Christians come here and literally do anything they want.


Its not that I don't want Christians coming here, but it is so Ironic to see what Christians say about the rules in MJ.

There are very many Christian only forums, and we have our forum, but it would seem to be owned by Christians also.

I used to disagree with Av, but I don't anymore, I see his point about the rules.

The rules apply against Messainics in Christian only forums, but they do not apply against Christians in the MJ forum. I think we are the red headed step child.
 
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yonah_mishael

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LOL!

I sport a Messianic Icon and go into a Christi only forum and say,'' Hello, how is everyone?''

Then I get reported for being in a Christian only forum, and I am asked to accept the Nicene creed and change my icon to a Christian Icon in order to go and say anything in a Christian only forum.

Then Christians come here and literally do anything they want.


Its not that I don't want Christians coming here, but it is so Ironic to see what Christians say about the rules in MJ.

There are very many Christian only forums, and we have our forum, but it would seem to be owned by Christians also.

I used to disagree with Av, but I don't anymore, I see his point about the rules.

The rules apply against Messainics in Christian only forums, but they do not apply against Christians in the MJ forum. I think we are the red headed step child.

So start a Messianic forum. ;) What ever happened to the one that was up and going (where all the non-Messianic Jews were eventually evicted)?
 
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HannibalFlavius

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So start a Messianic forum. ;) What ever happened to the one that was up and going (where all the non-Messianic Jews were eventually evicted)?



I would really hate to think that there was a Messianic forum where non Messianics were evicted.


As far as this place goes, I like this place but it works much different than most forums.
 
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Gxg (G²)

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I thank you all for the information :) I admire the knowledge and dedication that comes from the MJ forums. It reminds me of the non denomination part of this site.
Glad to know you were blessed :D
Another question i have is, what is your view of the law
If I may ask, prior to answering, what is your motivation to know and why are you asking? Research, another discussion elsewhere or wrestling on the issue?

Also, if I may ask, what is your view of the Law - how do you see it? Depending on how you answer, it can help determine what the approrpriate answer may be and what may need to be shared in regards to what you're looking for more approrpriately.
 
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HannibalFlavius

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I thank you all for the information :) I admire the knowledge and dedication that comes from the MJ forums. It reminds me of the non denomination part of this site.

Another question i have is, what is your view of the law?

The law is not only Jesus, it is the secret knowledge of Jesus.

Jesus came showing the secrets of the law.


Any law you read has an alternate spiritual meaning. IMO.

For instance, to read the laws of slavery and marriage has a literal meaning, but it also has an underlying spiritual meaning when you look at Jesus becoming married to his church.


Or to talk of a slave that a Master has taken in, after 7 years the slave is set free, but if the slave does not want to leave his master, the master stands him up against the door, takes an awl and runs his ear through so to put an earring in his ear.

The metal of the earring symbolizes his masters voice and shows everyone that the master has set him free but he chose to stay.

The law is so exciting to study because finding the spiritual aspects of the law is so exciting.

The law talks of what to eat, but I see a spiritual aspect to these things instead of the literal.

Keeping the law and teaching others to keep it means to endeavor to be the greatest in the kingdom.

Then there are the laws of feast days that really excite me, and the way God has connected the land and its harvest to people.

Barley symbolizes a type of person in God{my opinion} and then there are people who are considered the wheat, and others still that are something else.

Its like the metal of the Temple, Bronze is not silver, and silver is not gold.
 
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A

AbbaLove

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So start a Messianic forum. ;) What ever happened to the one that was up and going (where all the non-Messianic Jews were eventually evicted)?
Original post by Vis on 1/10/14 indicates the following language of the first introductory SOP sentence at that time …
This is a Messianic Jewish forum where those in Judaism as well as the Christian Church who have been called to Messiah may come, grow, and learn more about a Messianic Jewish life in Yeshua the Messiah.
Presently the first introductory SOP language currently reads ...
This is a Messianic forum where those in Judaism as well as the Christian Church who have been called to Messiah may come, grow, and learn more about a life in Yeshua, the Jewish Messiah.
It does seem that the new simplified SOP language can easily be interpreted to actually PROHIBIT a MJ (Messianic Jewish/Judaism) Only thread.

As for myself i appreciate the insight of a Messianic Jewish Only thread. It just doesn’t seem ‘kosher’ for a Messianic Gentile Christian Minister (who may even hold worship services on Sunday) to wear a Messianic Judaism faith icon so he can participate and teach in a MJ Only thread.

 
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Avodat

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Original post by Vis on 1/10/14 indicates the following language of the first introductory SOP sentence at that time …

Presently the first introductory SOP language currently reads ...

It does seem that the new simplified SOP language can easily be interpreted to actually PROHIBIT a MJ (Messianic Jewish/Judaism) Only thread.

As for myself i appreciate the insight of a Messianic Jewish Only thread. It just doesn’t seem ‘kosher’ for a Messianic Gentile Christian Minister (who may even hold worship services on Sunday) to wear a Messianic Judaism faith icon so he can participate and teach in a MJ Only thread.



Not sure why you are attacking me - I am a Messianic Gentile, along with a large number of Messianic Gentiles on here. I am a messianic theologian and a part time, semi-retired ordained minister, as is well known by Mods and other posters who have been on here for a couple of years. It is no secret. BTW, at least three others who are on these fora are also ordained by the Church, one is an 'official' on the MJ threads. One of the founders of the MJ movement was an ordained Christian Minister - Paul Levertoff - would you ban him from MJ only threads? He worked in the Church to introduce MJism to the Church to correct its theology and to allow Jews to worship G_d, with fellow MJ Gentiles, and to celebrate the Feasts, as I and others on here do.

The requirement to post, teach and debate in MJ threads is that you are a member by virtue of the fact that you subscribe fully to MJ teaching etc. I do. If you do, change your icon, but do it honestly, not just to get the privileges.

If you disagree talk to a Mod instead of attacking me in open posts - which is against the rules, even if you do not name. names!
 
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I thank you all for the information :) I admire the knowledge and dedication that comes from the MJ forums. It reminds me of the non denomination part of this site.

Another question i have is, what is your view of the law?

Paul says that the law is our "paidagogos" (like a guardian) to bring us into Messiah.
From another thread:

Notice the discourse does not end at Galatians 3:29 but continues into the next chapter:

Galatians 3:24-4:2 KJV
24. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster [GSN#3807 paidagogos] to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
26. For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
1. Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all;
2. But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father.


Original Strong's Ref. #3807
Romanized paidagogos
Pronounced pahee-dag-o-gos'
from GSN3816 and a reduplicated form of GSN0071; a boy-leader, i.e. a servant whose office it was to take the children to school; (by implication [figuratively] a tutor ["paedagogue"]):
KJV-- instructor, schoolmaster.

A "servant whose office it is to take the children to school" is a modern CROSSING GUARD:

paidagogos.jpg


The Law is your paidagogos-crossing-guard to bring you to Messiah Yeshua Faithfulness:
Without it one cannot come to Messiah but rather "climbs up into the fold some other way". :)
 
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