Balance between Messianic Judaism?

Messianic Jewboy

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I know there are some here that won't associate with the Church for their reasons. Instead of looking at the bad in the Church, is there any good? If so what are they?

What about a Church that also supports the redemption of Israel because they know Israel's redemption means life from the dead?
 

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I know there are some here that won't associate with the Church for their reasons. Instead of looking at the bad in the Church, is there any good? If so what are they?

What about a Church that also supports the redemption of Israel because they know Israel's redemption means life from the dead?

Does the term "Israel" mean nation, or does it mean body of believers?
 
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Messianic Jewboy

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Does the term "Israel" mean nation, or does it mean body of believers?

Israel meaning children of Israel. For me with the Church the most important thing if they support the 'doctrine' of Israel's redemption without down playing it. And yes there should be a balance as I don't want Christians to think that's my emphasis although it's on the top of my list.
 
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annier

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Israel meaning children of Israel. For me with the Church the most important thing if they support the 'doctrine' of Israel's redemption without down playing it. And yes there should be a balance as I don't want Christians to think that's my emphasis although it's on the top of my list.
Marc, Should the differences between Mosaic/Levitical Judaism and Rabbinic/Synagogue Judaism even be a factor in considering these things?
 
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Gxg (G²)

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Israel meaning children of Israel. For me with the Church the most important thing if they support the 'doctrine' of Israel's redemption without down playing it. And yes there should be a balance as I don't want Christians to think that's my emphasis although it's on the top of my list.
Seems reasonable enough of a stance you're taking, IMHO.
 
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mishkan

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I know there are some here that won't associate with the Church for their reasons. Instead of looking at the bad in the Church, is there any good? If so what are they?

What about a Church that also supports the redemption of Israel because they know Israel's redemption means life from the dead?

I'm sorry, but the more I studied Christian theology of all sorts, the less I find of merit in the arguments. The foundation of all Christian theology is Greek theosophy, with the fundamental point being how a Gentile community can replace Israel in God's plan.

As for Christians who are pro-Israel... they take that view despite the formal theology, not because of it. My own experience is a fine illustration. I asked questions pastors were uncomfortable answering, and came to recognize the Bible as a text of Israel, by Israel, and for Israel. I started out trying to take Yeshua to Jews, and found myself assimilated into Jewish culture and belief--as defined by first century writings.

After awhile, I was no longer a pro-Israel Christian... I became a Messianic Gentile. I view this as the standard trajectory depicted in Scripture.
 
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Gxg (G²)

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I know there are some here that won't associate with the Church for their reasons. Instead of looking at the bad in the Church, is there any good? If so what are they?

What about a Church that also supports the redemption of Israel because they know Israel's redemption means life from the dead?
I do think that it can be problematic whenever the Church is something others claim they don't want to associate with - for whether people really prefer it or not, when you say "Yes" to Yeshua, one automatically says "Yes" to the Church and becomes a part of it. And thus, people fight against themselves/Christ in trying to claim no connection or allegiance to it.

The basis of what Messianic Judaism was in the 1st Century is exactly what Christianity in its formation was about. It was never Greek philosophy/mindsets of "Gentiles replace Jews!!" that Christianity was born out of no and there is not a shred of evidence that has ever been placed forth to substantiate the point.

And I am still surprised every time I've been able to talk to Jews who came to believe in Yeshua and noted how much they took issue with other Gentiles claiming that Israel/the Church are not the same and then assuming Jewish cultural norms require Jews to not see themselves as such.


And it was not something done (when noting Jews were seperate in practice from Gentiles many times) to say Gentiles were NOT important.

As Brother Contra said best:

Originally Posted by ContraMundum View Post


The issue some people have is that the idea that God has a plan for Gentiles and His Messiah terrifies them. The 'drash is there tho. The Sandedrin rejected Him but Pilate, a Gentile, almost by accident but clearly by God's design, had written "King of the Jews" on a sign that was put above Him on the Cross. Ever since it has been largely the Gentiles proclaiming Him as King of the Jews, while the Jews largely have rejected Him as a false Messiah and worse. This is about as prophetic a 'drash as you can find.

The Gentile Church, with its martyrs, scholars, saints, sinners, politics and holiness is an immutable fact. We all owe it a huge gratitude of debt. Here the Word was preserved under persecution, the Messiah taught and lifted up at great personal cost, and the world introduced to the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob. When Israel is silent on the Messiah, the Church proclaims Him. This fact terrifies the radical new spirits of certain MJ teachers, but it doesn't terrify this Jew. The church is often corrupt, in bad shape, gets it wrong and is almost always in need of reform. Sometimes I can't stand it. But it belongs to God, filled with people who are new creations alongside the hypocrites and weak in faith.
Real Judaism, in Jesus' time and ours, has always rejected the notion that the Gentiles must be circumcised, and that the Gentiles must keep the Sabbath in the same manner as the Jews. etc. This is based not on pharisaic tradition, but on careful analysis of the Torah over millenia.

This is why Jews who become Christians don't seem to have the problem with Paul and Luke that Gentile Christians who become infatuated with Judaism do (not meaning mainstream, orthodox Messianics here, just the extreme position of some). Religion of the outward kind is a powerful temptress of the carnal man.
One should remember that the Messianic movement generally does not attract practiciing Jewish people. It witnesses to Jewish people with mixed success, but most Jews I know who come from a religious background and become followers of Jesus join liturgical churches with an ancient heritage and so forth (they tend to see a closer and less theoretical link with genuine Judaism). The exception seems to be in Israel, but there you have Messianic congregations that are organicially Jewish (eg. founded and populated by Jews). Their theology tends to be very Pentecostal in my experience but many do still keep proper Jewish Holy Days etc.

One would think that Jewish people would have an affinity with the Messianics. But in my experience, I have not seen that. Rather the opposite. Most Jews I know respect mainstream Christianity (esp EO'y etc) far more than organizations like FFoZ. Just a month ago I attended a talk (shiur) from an Orthodox Rabbi who completely tore apart the Messianics but showed immense respect to the local Christian churches for their work and history etc. I left really down hearted, actually.
I was born Jewish and raised Jewish. Over time, I drifted away and found a new life in Jesus. I now serve as a senior minister in an inner city mission where I deal with the poor and those afflicted by the many problems that hurt our modern society. It's the hardest thing I've ever done. It's heartbreaking and very tough.

When I was growing up, I was always taught that being a good Jew meant not just doing the things the religion required, but more importantly to be a good person, someone who does mitzvahs and is taking part in the world's tikkun (good deeds bringing repair to the world, kinda thing). In other words, acts of charity, helping others, being honest and kind etc were seen as what makes a good Jew.

Here's where I see something that isn't being addressed here. While it is easy to get frustrated with the Western Church, the Church is also a great place where one can find a nest and more importantly where one can make a difference. True, the church is enculturated. What isn't? I honestly think God doesn't have a problem with His people reflecting their culture- after all, the Torah reads like many of the other religions of that region and at that time. The only thing God has a problem with is sin and evil. He calls us to be in the world, not of the world as you know. Otherwise we would not be called to repair it. If a church, no matter how Western it looks is teaching faith and walking according to the Sermon on the Mount, then this is fine by me for its adherents and members. It must be more comfortable for them to find God and also to serve. I'm ok with it.

A lot of people come here looking for a place where "Jew and Gentile can be one in Yeshua". That, almost by definition, is the church. It's certainly not the synagogue. In the church I have had more love, peace and more acceptance for who I am than in some of the Messianic congregations I have visited, although I have very close Messianic Jewish friends (who have had much the same experience!) While I sometimes desperately miss Judaism and the synagogue (especially when times are hard in the church), I know where I have been sent to serve.

What I am saying is this- at this point of my life, I get to be a better Jew by serving the needy and and the poor in the community under the umbrella of the Church than I would attending the local Messianic congregation and being taught to stress out over the end times, or having people preach to me about the importance of having a "Jewish mindset", which is just insulting. Even my own family have said that I am still a good Jew according to my work (just a little lost in their opinion!)


As I've said numerous times, I do not share the experience that the Church wants me to shed any Jewish identity. They accept me as I am and I can say with confidence that most of the Jews I know in the church will say the same thing.
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Christianity is not converting to any form of Judaism at all. That's what the whole circumcision dispute is about- do Gentiles need to convert to Judaism (eg. be circumcised) to be Christians? The Christian Church (led by faithful Jews) said "no". So, I hate to say it, but Christianity has never been considered a conversion to Judaism.
[/COLOR]

...The Jewish founders of the Church were doing exactly what Judaism states: Gentiles don't need to be Jews to be righteous. God confirmed this when He gave Gentiles the full measure of the Holy Spirit. Nothing more is needful from Him.[/COLOR]
A few points.

1) All Believers in Yeshua are required to be part of the Body of Christ. If a "Messianic" Christian wants to correct everybody else then he must be the one to exercise patience and do it from within. The true contribution of Jewish converts to Christianity will not come from outside, but from within, the Jews bringing their treasure to the church and enriching her, not tearing her down from outside. The Church is Yeshua's Body. Don't attack it.

2) Messianics need to listen to the church too. They tend to take a very arrogant position and talk down to other Christians, talking at them not with them. Preaching to them rather than being with them. Messianics, despite their beliefs about themselves, are not always going to be right. In fact, as research continues, it is the Messianics who have a lot to sort out and are constantly changing positions.

3) Messianics need to stop thinking that they are "different" or not part of the church. All are equal in Yeshua. The idea that everyone else is always wrong or not as good as oneself is from Satan.
I could bury this forum in pile of data about the Jewish origins of ancient Christian practices. This is one reason more and more Jewish converts to Christianity are attending churches with an ancient tradition and less and less drawn to other forms. We see our roots there. It's not faked, or put on, or showy, but real, authentic and rooted in our religion. It's far from perfect- real far, but it is where God has taken His people and now that Jews are turing up we are bringing our gifts back to the ekklesia- God willing, He will use us for His purposes and to bring positive changes. Baruch HaShem it is going well.

.
[/QUOTE][/INDENT]



The Church of Jesus Christ is not something separate from Israel, but is the true Israel --the true manifestation of the Chosen People (see Gal 6:16, 1 Peter 2:9-10, etc.). It is because of this that the Eastern Church is correct to refer to the saints of the Old Testament as "St. Abraham" and "St. Moses," etc.

For, we are not a replacement for Israel of old, but an unbroken continuation of Israel under the promised King and Messiah of Israel, and His Church is His Kingdom of Israel, expanded to include all the Gentile peoples of the earth. And so, in Acts of the Apostles, when you have Jewish Christians addressing their fellow Jews who are not yet full Christians, you will see them refer to it as "the Way" -- that is, the true manifestation of Israel -- the "sect" that truly represents Israel, as opposed to the other Jewish sects (the Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes, Zealots, etc.) who did not recognize the true King of Israel, Who is the only "Way" -- the "Way, the Truth, and the Life."

Because the Church is remnant Israel, Paul--certainly a member of the Church--could say that since he was a believer in Jesus, he was part of remnant Israel (Romans 11:1-5). Because the Church is remnant Israel, Paul could say that Gentile believers in Jesus have been grafted into remnant Israel (Romans 11:17). Because the Church is remnant Israel, both Paul and Peter could say that Jews who didn't accept Jesus would be cut off from Israel (Romans 11:17; Acts 3:23). Because the Church is remnant Israel, Paul could say that Gentile believers are no longer "excluded from citizenship in Israel" and no longer "foreigners to the covenants of the promise" (Ephesians 2:12). Because the Church is remnant Israel, Paul could say that Gentile believers "are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God's people and members of God's household" (Ephesians 2:19).


Christ was present within the early Jewish community (alongside Gentile Churches where the Gospel was contexualized in their frameworks , Romans 16:3-5 ), as it pertains to the ecclesia/local bodies (Acts 8:1-3 , Acts 9:30-32, Acts 15:40-41, Acts 16:4-6, Romans 16:15-17, 1 Corinthians 7:16-18, 1 Corinthians 11:15-17 , 1 Corinthians 14:32-34 , 1 Corinthians 16:18-20, 2 Corinthians 8:17-19 , Galatians 1:1-3, 1 Thessalonians 2:13-15, Revelation 1:3-5 , Revelation 22:15-17, etc ) and the issue of where the Lord proclaimed how He would establish His Church upon the apostles ( Matthew 16:17-19, Matthew 18:16-18 )...


As said before, Messianic Judaism doesn't equate to not being Christian in thinking (false scenario) at any point - and Biblically/historically, Jewish believers in Messiah - whether in Jerusalem or in the Diaspora - had NO problem identifying as Christian since the Way/Nazarene Sect within Judaism was also known as that (1 Peter 4:15-17 , Acts 11:25-27 Acts 26:27-29 - ) - and the terms of discussion focused on wasn't on whether or not one was a "Christian" when it came to Jewish culture - but rather, what TYPE of Christianity one had been practicing (i.e. Jewish Christianity vs. Gentile Christianity). Other non-believing Jews have long noted this.

There are many excellent works on the issue - one of them being Nazarene Jewish Christianity: from the end of the New Testament Until Its Disappearance in the Fourth Century (Studia Post-Biblica)... by Ray Pritz .....a comprehensive study of the heirs of the earliest Jerusalem church, their history and doctrines, their relations with both synagogue and the growing Gentile church...with the author analyzing all sources, Jewish, Christian, and pagan, which can throw light on the sect and its ultimate mysterious disappearance. Additionally, another excellent resource is Jewish Christianity in apostolic times: A native Jewish Church andFather Bernstein Finds the Jews | The Groom's Family - as it concerns Jewish believers in the Church showing their heritage and what it means to live Messianic Jewish within Christendom - and often feel like they live in dual worlds....

As there
have always been various forms of Judaism, there are various forms of Messianic Jews.[/COLOR][/COLOR], so it is with the Church - but we are all ONE Body, One Church.
 
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David Ben Yosef

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I'm sorry, but the more I studied Christian theology of all sorts, the less I find of merit in the arguments. The foundation of all Christian theology is Greek theosophy, with the fundamental point being how a Gentile community can replace Israel in God's plan.

As for Christians who are pro-Israel... they take that view despite the formal theology, not because of it. My own experience is a fine illustration. I asked questions pastors were uncomfortable answering, and came to recognize the Bible as a text of Israel, by Israel, and for Israel. I started out trying to take Yeshua to Jews, and found myself assimilated into Jewish culture and belief--as defined by first century writings.

After awhile, I was no longer a pro-Israel Christian... I became a Messianic Gentile. I view this as the standard trajectory depicted in Scripture.
Welcome back, Mishkan! I've been enjoying your study on Ephesians over at your blog. You are a very talented writer. Did you take any courses for that, or is it just natural?
 
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mishkan

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Welcome back, Mishkan! I've been enjoying your study on Ephesians over at your blog. You are a very talented writer. Did you take any courses for that, or is it just natural?

LOL! Thanks for the welcome.

I'm glad you are enjoying the Ephesians study. It has been enhanced and put to print now. I will be posting the press release in about a week.

The writing is just God-given talent. No formal training outside of a couple college classes on literature and lots of reading/writing over the years. I really started taking notice of what constitutes good vs. bad writing in the mid-90's, when I started coming across web pages that droned on forever, with no paragraph breaks, and no clear flow of logic. I thought to myself, "I can do better than that"... and so I did! :)

I don't have a lot of time these days, but I will try to keep in touch here, as much as possible.
 
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annier

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Don't know what you're trying to ask I guess.
I am asking about the foundational ideas associated with the beginnings and purpose of worship at synagogue. The transfer of temple ritual ( as well as it's holiness) to synagogue. Bringing a sense of HOLINESS to Synagogue assembly (as a convocation) , and the performing of it's rituals, which prior belonged to God' house, and the servants in God's house.
As I think the article which I copied from your op in another thread alludes to as "identifying with the jewish people", and " unique theological and ritual characteristics"
The orientation of two parent communities.
Evangelicalism
Judaism
"One of the central challenges Messianic Judaism faces is how to orient itself against its two parent communities: modern evangelicalism and American Judaism. As modern Messianic Judaism is historically rooted chiefly in the evangelical movements of the twentieth century, I will trace Messianic Judaism's relationship with this particular parent. Nevertheless, one cannot discuss the one without the other: the further Messianic Jews move from evangelicalism, the more closely they identify with the Jewish community.
The central question to determine the extent of identification with evangelicalism will be whether, in the end, the distinction between believer and non-believer is primary, as in evangelicalism, or the distinction between Jew and Gentile, as in Judaism. Scholars such as Carol Harris-Shapiro and Shoshana Feher have each studied Messianic congregations over a period of years and applied their research to Messianic Judaism as a whole, finding the movement to be a melding of Jewish ritual with fairly typical evangelical Christian content. While Feher and Harris-Shapiro characterize one segment of Messianic Judaism in very insightful terms, it must be seen in balance with another strand of Messianic Judaism, which is reacting to the first and has quite different aims, resulting in unique theological and ritual characteristics."
Do you think it is not an issue here, that temple rituals along with some of it's holiness is not at play here? Don't you think it has an effect on the distictiveness Jew's have of themselves?

Shouldn't these issues which are branded in the minds of Jew's be examined?
Is the synagogue HOLY? Are those attending and performing those rituals HOLY?
Is this the parent of the umjc?
 
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mercy1061

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Gxg (G²);65050291 said:
I do think that it can be problematic whenever the Church is something others claim they don't want to associate with - for whether people really prefer it or not, when you say "Yes" to Yeshua, one automatically says "Yes" to the Church and becomes a part of it. And thus, people fight against themselves/Christ in trying to claim no connection or allegiance to it.

The basis of what Messianic Judaism was in the 1st Century is exactly what Christianity in its formation was about. It was never Greek philosophy/mindsets of "Gentiles replace Jews!!" that Christianity was born out of no and there is not a shred of evidence that has ever been placed forth to substantiate the point.

And I am still surprised every time I've been able to talk to Jews who came to believe in Yeshua and noted how much they took issue with other Gentiles claiming that Israel/the Church are not the same and then assuming Jewish cultural norms require Jews to not see themselves as such.


And it was not something done (when noting Jews were seperate in practice from Gentiles many times) to say Gentiles were NOT important.

As Brother Contra said best:
[/INDENT][/QUOTE]
Of course it were the jews that were being crucified by the romans or gentiles. The original martyrs were all jews. Let us not ignore the obvious fact the entire torah was written by a
jew. While the romans did acknowledge him as king, they did it while they continued to crucify him.
 
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Yahudim

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I think in many cases, when people say the don't want to associate with the church, it is Christian theology with which they are really trying to distance themselves. Israel replacement, revisionism, anti-semitism, etc. Saying 'yea' to Y'shua means saying 'yea' to Y'shua. Nothing more. Nothing less.

There are plenty of people that claim allegiance to the Messiah. But like so many before them, many worship with their lips, but are far from Him in their hearts.
 
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David Ben Yosef

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LOL! Thanks for the welcome.

I'm glad you are enjoying the Ephesians study. It has been enhanced and put to print now. I will be posting the press release in about a week.

The writing is just God-given talent. No formal training outside of a couple college classes on literature and lots of reading/writing over the years. I really started taking notice of what constitutes good vs. bad writing in the mid-90's, when I started coming across web pages that droned on forever, with no paragraph breaks, and no clear flow of logic. I thought to myself, "I can do better than that"... and so I did! :)
I sure wish I could write like that. Over the years of participating in fora such as this I have noticed invariably that it is not always the message that counts, but how that message is delivered. Take the King James Bible for instance. It is probably the most horrible English translation of the Greek NT texts that exists. But, on the other hand, it is an absolute literary masterpiece! And this is why it is still the best selling Bible version in the United States. My personal opinion, of course.

I don't have a lot of time these days, but I will try to keep in touch here, as much as possible.
Sounds great. I really enjoy your posts. I began to seriously study Israeli history because of a few posts of yours about two years ago. I'm indebted to you for that. I've learned quite a bit about it since then. :)
 
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Gxg (G²)

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I know there are some here that won't associate with the Church for their reasons. Instead of looking at the bad in the Church, is there any good? If so what are they?
With the Church, one thing I am thankful for are those who have died for the spread of the Gospel.....for anywhere His saints die (Psalm 116), it is a precious thing to the Lord. As it concerns current times, we already have the example of the author of "Tortured for Christ" Rev. Richard Wurmbrand , who is known in differing Messianic Jewish circles due to how he spoke in them often as an international Messianic Jewish leader in the body - being Jewish himself and the creator of the global ministry known as "Voice of the Martyrs" that documents persecution of believers all over the globe/is dedicated to honoring their struggle in the Lord just as the Early Church honored believers wherever they were - be it Jew or Gentile - for them suffering for the Faith ( more here and here, #231 /#235 )...

Any where believers in Christ celebrated the Death and Resurrection of Yeshua, we should also be celebrating with them - for it is not seperate from the Jewish people/Israel to do so. Be it the Christians dying for the Gospel in Syria, Iraq or Uganda (with the children/women abused) or China with the Underground Church and so many other places - God's Body is to be celebrated when others perish for the Faith.

And of course, there are many others besides that spreading the work of the Gospel - places such as the International House of Prayer - if aware of their work called Israel Mandate | Israel Mandate - International House of Prayer ( - working with multiple Messianic congregations when it comes to raising up house of prayer to intercede for the work of God - Gentiles honoring the Jewish people and Jewish people blessing the Gentiles in the common work of serving the Messiah.


Much of that has been a blessing to see in action in light of how the Synagogue rejected the early Jewish believers in Messiah, who were originally called Nazarene Jews. For After the Temple fell, the Pharisees became the leadership, which led to today’s Orthodox Rabbinical Judaism - and the rabbis sought to preserve and unify the Jewish community under their teachings and excluded any other forms of Judaism.....leading to the eventual casting out of Nazarene Jews from rabbinical synagogues.

Through different historical events eventually the loss of a community of Messianic Jews resulted in the loss of the bridge of understanding between Judaism and the Church - unfortunate since Messianic Jews could have kept alive the true picture of the Jewish Messiah and helped to avoid the future anti-Semitism in the Church. ...but even further than that, there was extensive history of Jewish people claiming to be God's people and yet dehumanizing other ethnic groups. That occurred in the Civil Rights era when it came to how many Jews spoke negatively toward blacks/didn't want to support them in their struggle even though they wanted to advance the cause of their people being protected - something unfortunate in light of the extensive history between Jews and Blacks during that time who went against the norm - and it even though there has been much collaboration between Jews and Gentiles (especially in the arts - from Bob Marley to Lenny Krativs to Andre Crouch and others), it has been consistently ignored by other Jews who sadly carry much prejudice toward Gentiles.....a form of racism.

And Jews who were Christians were already persecuted by other Jews who didn't believe in Yeshua - or support forms of Judaism that existed and yet were not in line with what the commands of the Lord was about ). From the Bar Kokhba revolt where Jewish Christians were called "traitors" by Jewish patriots to times Gentile Christians were sold out to Roman authorities by others in Judaism itself who felt competition with Christians - and others who had the mindset of assuming each/everything associated with being Christian was "negative" despite where the Apostles already worn the name proudly from Acts 11 (where they were first called Christians in Antioch) to I Peter 4 where Peter speaks on bearing the name "Christian" and Acts 26:28 amongst many other places. The same also goes for forgetting where Gentiles were already keeping Holy Days and others (assuming the mindset that all Gentiles were automatically being kept from them because others didn't have the mindset they HAD to do so in order to gain [URL="http://www.christianforums.com/t7782610-7/#post64480539"]God's approval in light of where Christ brought new dynamics to the Law/Torah) didn't wish to square with that - this being addressed before in previous discussions (such as here and here). And the Church, in reaching out to Gentiles, was also free to develop means of connecting with the Gentile world in ways that exalted the Lord while Jewish believers were able to do the same ....yet both were persecuted by the world.

But in the end, in our times, Israel - in the form of the Church (Jew and Gentile) - has survived and is one in Messiah, seeking to reach out to those in Ethnic Israel so that they can show the life of the Messiah....the true purpose of what the Church was meant to be about....and the ways that the Lord has knit his people together to do amazing things :)
 
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Gxg (G²)

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[/INDENT]
Of course it were the jews that were being crucified by the romans or gentiles. .

The original martyrs were all jews. Let us not ignore the obvious fact the entire torah was written by a
jew. While the romans did acknowledge him as king, they did it while they continued to crucify him
[/QUOTE]Of course - and unfortunately, it was both Jews and Gentiles that often worked together to crucify others, from the thieves on the cross to Barabbas and Yeshua himself when the crowds demanded his death and the Gentiles carried out the execution at the orders of the Roman Leaders and Jewish leaders.

Outside of Yeshua, the first real Martyr was Stephen from Acts 6 - one of the Hellenized Jews chosen to serve others in the community from his background...an after that, persecution broke out against the Church till Saul converted in Acts 9. And later, as it concerns the first of the Apostles to perish, it was St. James (Acts 12) at the hands of Herod. Many others followed after that, of course - both Jew and Gentile. Gentiles and Jews in the Early Body of believers all realized how indebted they were to the Lord and honored to walk with Him - while also seeing God's Work in history, be it seeing how Moses (Hebrew) wrote the Torah or how Jethro (Midianite) helped develop the legal system of the Judicial laws in Israel - or how Noah (Gentile) helped save the world, as did Abraham (Gentile background).

God has always used Jew and Gentile for His purposes..
 
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David Ben Yosef

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Gxg (G²);65051048 said:
With the Church, one thing I am thankful for are those who have died for the spread of the Gospel.....for anywhere His saints die (Psalm 116), it is a precious thing to the Lord.
I would be cautious who you label "saint" and how you define what the "Gospel" of the Kingdom actually is. I doubt that dying for replacement theology is a precious thing in the eyes of the G-d of Israel. It definitely is not what He had in mind in Tehilim 116! ;)
 
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Gxg (G²)

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I would be cautious who you label "saint" and how you define what the "Gospel" of the Kingdom actually is. I doubt that dying for replacement theology is a precious thing in the eyes of the G-d of Israel. It definitely is not what He had in mind in Tehilim 116! ;)
Unless it is somehow the case that believing in Replacement Theology changes the fact that Yeshua is God Incarnate/the one who died to atone for sins of mankind when it comes to the simplicity of the Gospel (I Corinthians 15), I'd be cautious to assume who is or isn't a saint when it comes to people living out what Christ noted.

Obvious is the fact that Replacement Theology isn't Biblical nor what God had in mind - but neither were a host of things present in the times of Christ (such as Retribution Theology - believing others suffering DESERVED to because of sin...John 9....or believing Gentiles had to be circumcised to be approved of by the Lord as Peter believed alongside many other Jews in Anti-Gentile ideologies ) - and God works with people where they are. Just as He can work thru someone only knowing John 3:16 (even though ignorant on other issues), he does so for others in all camps....and all kinds of issues, as the Hall of Faith (Hebrews 11) points out when seeing the characters of some and how much God worked in spite of.

Dying for the Kingdom is sacred throughout the history of God's Kingdom - even more so when one does so for love for the Lord (I Corinthians 13) - and the blood of the saints in His name (Psalm 116:15-16) will always be sacred to Him wherever - and where Christ is preached, I rejoice:

Philippians 1:12-15
It is true that some preach Christ out of envy and rivalry, but others out of goodwill. 16 The latter do so out of love, knowing that I am put here for the defense of the gospel. 17 The former preach Christ out of selfish ambition, not sincerely, supposing that they can stir up trouble for me while I am in chains. 18 But what does it matter? The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached. And because of this I rejoice.

Yes, and I will continue to rejoice, 19 for I know that through your prayers and God’s provision of the Spirit of Jesus Christ what has happened to me will turn out for my deliverance.

Ultimately, no one knows the full hearts/intents of others but the Lord and only He is the Final Judge.

Wherever Christ is preached - His Death, Life and Resurrection - that is what we rejoice. And the Apostles of the Church noted this many times - just as much as they noted how it'll always be an issue whenever others claim Yeshua was NOT God or simply a man (which is a matter of a false Gospel - most of the early deadly heresies of the Church addressing it just as it is in addition to noting where Jew/Gentile together were Israel ...neither group devalued in Christ).
 
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