I know there are some here that won't associate with the Church for their reasons. Instead of looking at the bad in the Church, is there any good? If so what are they?
What about a Church that also supports the redemption of Israel because they know Israel's redemption means life from the dead?
I do think that it can be problematic whenever the Church is something others claim they don't want to associate with - for whether people really prefer it or not, when you say "Yes" to Yeshua, one automatically says "Yes" to the Church and becomes a part of it. And thus, people fight against themselves/Christ in trying to claim no connection or allegiance to it.
The basis of what Messianic Judaism was in the 1st Century is exactly what Christianity in its formation was about. It was never Greek philosophy/mindsets of "Gentiles replace Jews!!" that Christianity was born out of no and there is not a shred of evidence that has ever been placed forth to substantiate the point.
And I am still surprised every time I've been able to talk to Jews who came to believe in Yeshua and noted how much they took issue with other Gentiles claiming that Israel/the Church are not the same and then assuming Jewish cultural norms require Jews to not see themselves as such.
And it was not something done (when noting Jews were seperate in practice from Gentiles many times) to say Gentiles were NOT important.
As Brother Contra said best:
Originally Posted by
ContraMundum View Post
The issue some people have is that the idea that God has a plan for Gentiles and His Messiah terrifies them. The 'drash is there tho. The Sandedrin rejected Him but Pilate, a Gentile, almost by accident but clearly by God's design, had written "King of the Jews" on a sign that was put above Him on the Cross. Ever since it has been largely the Gentiles proclaiming Him as King of the Jews, while the Jews largely have rejected Him as a false Messiah and worse. This is about as prophetic a 'drash as you can find.
The Gentile Church, with its martyrs, scholars, saints, sinners, politics and holiness is an immutable fact. We all owe it a huge gratitude of debt. Here the Word was preserved under persecution, the Messiah taught and lifted up at great personal cost, and the world introduced to the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob. When Israel is silent on the Messiah, the Church proclaims Him. This fact terrifies the radical new spirits of certain MJ teachers, but it doesn't terrify this Jew. The church is often corrupt, in bad shape, gets it wrong and is almost always in need of reform. Sometimes I can't stand it. But it belongs to God, filled with people who are new creations alongside the hypocrites and weak in faith.
Real Judaism, in Jesus' time and ours, has always rejected the notion that the Gentiles must be circumcised, and that the Gentiles must keep the Sabbath in the same manner as the Jews. etc. This is based not on pharisaic tradition, but on careful analysis of the Torah over millenia.
This is why Jews who become Christians don't seem to have the problem with Paul and Luke that Gentile Christians who become infatuated with Judaism do (not meaning mainstream, orthodox Messianics here, just the extreme position of some). Religion of the outward kind is a powerful temptress of the carnal man.
One should remember that the Messianic movement generally does not attract practiciing Jewish people. It witnesses to Jewish people with mixed success, but most Jews I know who come from a religious background and become followers of Jesus join liturgical churches with an ancient heritage and so forth (they tend to see a closer and less theoretical link with genuine Judaism). The exception seems to be in Israel, but there you have Messianic congregations that are organicially Jewish (eg. founded and populated by Jews). Their theology tends to be very Pentecostal in my experience but many do still keep proper Jewish Holy Days etc.
One would think that Jewish people would have an affinity with the Messianics. But in my experience, I have not seen that. Rather the opposite. Most Jews I know respect mainstream Christianity (esp EO'y etc) far more than organizations like FFoZ. Just a month ago I attended a talk (shiur) from an Orthodox Rabbi who completely tore apart the Messianics but showed immense respect to the local Christian churches for their work and history etc. I left really down hearted, actually.
I was born Jewish and raised Jewish. Over time, I drifted away and found a new life in Jesus. I now serve as a senior minister in an inner city mission where I deal with the poor and those afflicted by the many problems that hurt our modern society. It's the hardest thing I've ever done. It's heartbreaking and very tough.
When I was growing up, I was always taught that being a good Jew meant not just doing the things the religion required, but more importantly to be a good person, someone who does mitzvahs and is taking part in the world's tikkun (good deeds bringing repair to the world, kinda thing). In other words, acts of charity, helping others, being honest and kind etc were seen as what makes a good Jew.
Here's where I see something that isn't being addressed here. While it is easy to get frustrated with the Western Church, the Church is also a great place where one can find a nest and more importantly where one can make a difference. True, the church is enculturated. What isn't? I honestly think God doesn't have a problem with His people reflecting their culture- after all, the Torah reads like many of the other religions of that region and at that time. The only thing God has a problem with is sin and evil. He calls us to be in the world, not of the world as you know. Otherwise we would not be called to repair it. If a church, no matter how Western it looks is teaching faith and walking according to the Sermon on the Mount, then this is fine by me for its adherents and members. It must be more comfortable for them to find God and also to serve. I'm ok with it.
A lot of people come here looking for a place where "Jew and Gentile can be one in Yeshua". That, almost by definition, is the church. It's certainly not the synagogue. In the church I have had more love, peace and more acceptance for who I am than in some of the Messianic congregations I have visited, although I have very close Messianic Jewish friends (who have had much the same experience!) While I sometimes desperately miss Judaism and the synagogue (especially when times are hard in the church), I know where I have been sent to serve.
What I am saying is this- at this point of my life, I get to be a better Jew by serving the needy and and the poor in the community under the umbrella of the Church than I would attending the local Messianic congregation and being taught to stress out over the end times, or having people preach to me about the importance of having a "Jewish mindset", which is just insulting. Even my own family have said that I am still a good Jew according to my work (just a little lost in their opinion!)
As I've said numerous times, I do not share the experience that the Church wants me to shed any Jewish identity. They accept me as I am and I can say with confidence that most of the Jews I know in the church will say the same thing.
.
Christianity is
not converting to any form of Judaism at all. That's what the whole circumcision dispute is about- do Gentiles need to convert to Judaism (eg. be circumcised) to be Christians? The Christian Church (led by faithful Jews) said "no". So, I hate to say it, but Christianity has never been considered a conversion to Judaism.
[/COLOR]
...The Jewish founders of the Church were doing exactly what Judaism states: Gentiles don't need to be Jews to be righteous. God confirmed this when He gave Gentiles the full measure of the Holy Spirit. Nothing more is needful from Him.[/COLOR]
A few points.
1) All Believers in Yeshua are required to be part of the Body of Christ. If a "Messianic" Christian wants to correct everybody else then he must be the one to exercise patience and do it from within. The true contribution of Jewish converts to Christianity will not come from outside, but from within, the Jews bringing their treasure to the church and enriching her, not tearing her down from outside. The Church is Yeshua's Body. Don't attack it.
2) Messianics need to listen to the church too. They tend to take a very arrogant position and talk down to other Christians, talking
at them not
with them. Preaching to them rather than being with them. Messianics, despite their beliefs about themselves, are not always going to be right. In fact, as research continues, it is the Messianics who have a lot to sort out and are constantly changing positions.
3) Messianics need to stop thinking that they are "different" or not part of the church. All are equal in Yeshua. The idea that everyone else is always wrong or not as good as oneself is from Satan.
I could bury this forum in pile of data about the Jewish origins of ancient Christian practices. This is one reason more and more Jewish converts to Christianity are attending churches with an ancient tradition and less and less drawn to other forms. We see our roots there. It's not faked, or put on, or showy, but real, authentic and rooted in our religion. It's far from perfect- real far, but it is where God has taken His people and now that Jews are turing up we are bringing our gifts back to the ekklesia- God willing, He will use us for His purposes and to bring positive changes. Baruch HaShem it is going well.
.
[/QUOTE][/INDENT]
The Church of Jesus Christ is not something separate from Israel, but is the true Israel --the true manifestation of the Chosen People (see Gal 6:16, 1 Peter 2:9-10, etc.). It is because of this that the Eastern Church is correct to refer to the saints of the Old Testament as "St. Abraham" and "St. Moses," etc.
For, we are not a replacement for Israel of old, but an unbroken continuation of Israel under the promised King and Messiah of Israel, and His Church is His Kingdom of Israel, expanded to include all the Gentile peoples of the earth. And so, in Acts of the Apostles, when you have Jewish Christians addressing their fellow Jews who are not yet full Christians, you will see them refer to it as "the Way" -- that is, the true manifestation of Israel -- the "sect" that truly represents Israel, as opposed to the other Jewish sects (the Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes, Zealots, etc.) who did not recognize the true King of Israel, Who is the only "Way" -- the "Way, the Truth, and the Life."
Because the Church is remnant Israel, Paul--certainly a member of the Church--could say that since he was a believer in Jesus, he was part of remnant Israel (Romans 11:1-5). Because the Church is remnant Israel, Paul could say that Gentile believers in Jesus have been grafted into remnant Israel (Romans 11:17). Because the Church is remnant Israel, both Paul and Peter could say that Jews who didn't accept Jesus would be cut off from Israel (Romans 11:17; Acts 3:23). Because the Church is remnant Israel, Paul could say that Gentile believers are no longer "excluded from citizenship in Israel" and no longer "foreigners to the covenants of the promise" (Ephesians 2:12). Because the Church is remnant Israel, Paul could say that Gentile believers "are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God's people and members of God's household" (Ephesians 2:19).
Christ was present within the early Jewish community (alongside Gentile Churches where the Gospel was contexualized in their frameworks , Romans 16:3-5 ), as it pertains to the ecclesia/local bodies (Acts 8:1-3 , Acts 9:30-32, Acts 15:40-41, Acts 16:4-6, Romans 16:15-17, 1 Corinthians 7:16-18, 1 Corinthians 11:15-17 , 1 Corinthians 14:32-34 , 1 Corinthians 16:18-20, 2 Corinthians 8:17-19 , Galatians 1:1-3, 1 Thessalonians 2:13-15, Revelation 1:3-5 , Revelation 22:15-17, etc ) and the issue of where the Lord proclaimed how He would establish His Church upon the apostles ( Matthew 16:17-19, Matthew 18:16-18 )...
As said before, Messianic Judaism doesn't equate to not being Christian in thinking (false scenario) at any point - and Biblically/historically, Jewish believers in Messiah - whether in Jerusalem or in the Diaspora - had NO problem identifying as Christian since the Way/Nazarene Sect within Judaism was also known as that (1 Peter 4:15-17 , Acts 11:25-27 Acts 26:27-29 - ) - and the terms of discussion focused on wasn't on whether or not one was a "Christian" when it came to Jewish culture - but rather, what TYPE of Christianity one had been practicing (i.e. Jewish Christianity vs. Gentile Christianity). Other non-believing Jews have long noted this.
There are many excellent works on the issue - one of them being Nazarene Jewish Christianity: from the end of the New Testament Until Its Disappearance in the Fourth Century (Studia Post-Biblica)... by Ray Pritz .....a comprehensive study of the heirs of the earliest Jerusalem church, their history and doctrines, their relations with both synagogue and the growing Gentile church...with the author analyzing all sources, Jewish, Christian, and pagan, which can throw light on the sect and its ultimate mysterious disappearance. Additionally, another excellent resource is Jewish Christianity in apostolic times: A native Jewish Church andFather Bernstein Finds the Jews | The Groom's Family - as it concerns Jewish believers in the Church showing their heritage and what it means to live Messianic Jewish within Christendom - and often feel like they live in dual worlds....
As there have always been various forms of Judaism, there are various forms of Messianic Jews.[/COLOR][/COLOR], so it is with the Church - but we are all ONE Body, One Church.