Eternal Torment is nowhere in The Bible

Ariston

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Thoughts on Eternal Life in the Gospel of John

Conditionalist or annihilationists often want do use the Gospel of John to emphasize that that eternal life is bestowed upon those who believe in Jesus and are born of the Spirit and water. They often suggest that this implies that those who do not receive eternal life are annihilated. However, considering how eternal life is defined by Jesus in John's Gospel appears to be in conflict with this suggestion:

"And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent."

That is to say, eternal life is to share in the life of God through Jesus Christ but not, so far as I know, concerned with a eternal duration of time. As Christ the Lord emphasizes a bit later in that same chapter:

"The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me."

It appears that "life" and "death" in the Gospel of John and 1 John refer to knowing God the Father through Jesus Christ by the Spirit. As eternal life is not here concerned with an unending duration of time, the absence of life, is not I suggest, the negation of an unending duration of time (annihilation). In accordance with the definition that the Beloved Disciple offers up, so it seems, to be without eternal life is to be understood as suffering the privation of God and not as annihilation. Following Daniel 12, contemporary Judaism, and Paul, Jesus also emphasizes the resurrection of the the just and the unjust at the end of the age (Jn. 5:27).
 
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Ariston

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I am not convinced of your position. This is how it seems to me presently: The assertion of annihilationism is to misunderstand Jesus, Paul, the rest of the apostles, their contemporary Judaism, the emphasis on the resurrection of the just and the unjust emphasized explicitly in Daniel 12, and the positions of the orthodox/catholic Fathers of the second-and third centuries, who I have personally read, and who decisively and unambiguously teach of judgment as an eternal duration.

According to my sources, the word "eternal" (aionios) is derived from the verb aion, signifying an "age" or "duration." Scripture speaks of two aeons, or ages: the present age and the age to come. The present age - this world - is always contrasted with the age to come as temporal, while the future age will be endless, just so the retributive aspects of hell refers to the future infinite age. In every reference in which aionos applies to the future punishment of the wicked, it indisputably denotes endless duration. Since I do not want to continue to debate his topic endlessly, I will leave you with these points.

Also, I would emphasize that "if the worm does not die" is evidence for annihilation since worms are eating the flesh of eternally dead corpses, then you ought to be willing to hold that Isaiah 65:22 which says, that the saints will be "like the days of a tree shall the days of my people be," the righteous will also be annihilated as well since trees do not live for an endless duration of time. What I am pointing out is that the prophet Isaiah speaks in figures. Yet, as they are taken up in the language of Jesus who emphasized the resurrection of the righteous and the unrighteous, this reference is to be understood an judgment and resurrection to eternal privation and shame. It seems proper to maintain that "the worm does not die" since judgment is perpetual and eternal. Could annihilationism be a perversion of the ancient doctrine; a deceptive and destructive form of heterodox Christian wish-fulfillment? This appears to be the case.
 
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I would emphasize that "if the worm does not die" is evidence for annihilation since worms are eating the flesh of eternally dead corpses,

They're eating the flesh of eternally dead corpses, evident in text,

Isaiah 66:24 - "And they will go out and look on the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; the worms that eat them will not die, the fire that burns them will not be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind."

then you ought to be willing to hold that Isaiah 65:22 which says, that the saints will be "like the days of a tree shall the days of my people be," the righteous will also be annihilated as well since trees do not live for an endless duration of time.

No it's talking about present time,

Isaiah 65:22 - ""They will not build and another inhabit, They will not plant and another eat; For as the lifetime of a tree, so will be the days of My people, And My chosen ones will wear out the work of their hands."

Just like in Genesis where God says man won't live longer than about 120 years, YHWH here is talking about the 1st death. everyone has a finite life and will die until Jesus Christ returns and resurrects The Righteous, this is a biblical fact. the unrighteous, those who harmed however will be resurrected to judgement, which will be annihilation.

Thoughts on Eternal Life in the Gospel of John

Conditionalist or annihilationists often want do use the Gospel of John to emphasize that that eternal life is bestowed upon those who believe in Jesus and are born of the Spirit and water.

Exactly Eternal Life is only bestowed upon those who believe in Jesus Christ and are Righteous, not to the unrighteous, they do not get Eternal Life/Existence, meaning they die/cease to exist.

Even says it in John 3:35-36 - ""The Father loves the Son and has given all things into His hand. 36 He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath(wrath is an incorrect translation, correct word is Indignation/Justice) of God abides on him."

Not replying to me shows you do not have the truth, why do you reject The Holy Spirit?
 
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MikeBigg

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According to my sources, the word "eternal" (aionios) is derived from the verb aion, signifying an "age" or "duration." Scripture speaks of two aeons, or ages: the present age and the age to come. The present age - this world - is always contrasted with the age to come as temporal, while the future age will be endless, just so the retributive aspects of hell refers to the future infinite age. In every reference in which aionos applies to the future punishment of the wicked, it indisputably denotes endless duration. Since I do not want to continue to debate his topic endlessly, I will leave you with these points.

Hmm. There are some very well qualified people who disagree with the bit I bolded. Here's an example:

Professor Ramelli has been Professor of History of the Roman Near East, and Assistant of History of Ancient Philosophy since 2003 at the Catholic University of the Sacred Heart, Milan. She is internationally recognised as one of the foremost scholars of classic and early Christian literature and thought. As well as holding a number of senior visiting positions, including Senior Visiting Professor in Greek Thought (classical and Patristic) at NYU and Harvard, Ramelli is also scientific Consultant, member of directive and scientific boards of scholarly series and journals, and the Director of a number of international projects, including Director of the international Oxford Workshop on “The Soul in the Origenian Tradition.” Her contribution to her field and outstanding publication record contributed to her inclusion in the publications Great Minds of the 21st Century and 2000 Outstanding Intellectuals of the 21st Century. Lastly she has been awarded the Salute to Greatness Medal 2013 (Cambridge, UK) for Philosophy, Patristics, and Classics.

which I think you'll agree is a pretty impressive resume and suggests that she might know a thing or two about ancient Greek as written in the Bible.

David Konstan the John Rowe Workman Distinguished Professor of Classics and Professor of Comparative Literature, at Brown University​

which again is quite impressive.

In Terms for Eternity a scholarly work by Remelli and Konstan on the Greek word aiōn they wrote:

Apart from the Platonic philosophical vocabulary, which is specific to few authors, aiónios does not mean “eternal”; it acquires this meaning only when it refers to God, and only because the notion of eternity was included in the conception of God: for the rest, it has a wide range of meanings and its possible renderings are multiple, but it does not mean “eternal.”​

Kind regards,

Mike
 
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he-man

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Quoting Scripture is good but to what profit Banishment is a term indicating separation. Please explain how something which does not exist can be "banished". Do we say flying pigs are "banished" which is why we do not see them?
Is that from the Bible? You are banished the moment you die never to see the face of God.
Banishment. A form of punishment imposed on an individual, usually by a country or state, [or GOD] in which the individual is forced to remain outside of that country or state;
to drive out or remove from a home or place of usual resort or continuance
Related words: cast out, dismiss, eject, eliminate, evict, exclude, expel, expulse, kick out, oust, run out, throw out; excommunicate, reject, Merriam-Webster

:confused: As smoke vaporized by eternal exclusion and banishment far away and prevented forever in the depths of the grave being shut out to never see the face of God.

9 Such people will pay the penalty and suffer the punishment of everlasting ruin (destruction and perdition) and eternal exclusion and banishment from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, [AMP]

9 They will suffer the just penalty of eternal destruction, far away from the face of the Lord and the glory of his might. [CJB]

9 who shall pay the penalty [of] everlasting destruction from [the] presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his might, [DARBY]

9 Those people will be punished with the destruction; that continues to be forever separated from the presence of the Lord and from his great power. [EXB]

9 Their punishment will be eternal exclusion from the radiance of the face of the Lord, and the glorious majesty of power. [PHILLIPS]

9 They will pay the penalty by being destroyed forever, by being separated from the Lord’s presence and from his glorious power. [NOG]

9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might [NIV]

9 And what’s to become of them? They’ll pay for what they’ve done; their punishment [agony] will be eternal destruction. And what’s worse? banished from the Lord’s presence and glorious power. [VOICE]

So where is your scripture? Can you address the scripture with scripture? [/b]
Such is the case with the ungodly that perish from the face of God and that means before they will see the face of God, they do not exist because they have already been vaporized like smoke and will never be seen again for all eternity.

Psa 18:8 There went up a smoke out of his nostrils, and fire out of his mouth devoured:coals were kindled by it.

Psa 68:2 As smoke is driven away, so drive them away: as wax melteth before the fire, so let the ungodly perish from the face of God.

2Th 1:9 who shall pay the penalty of everlasting destruction from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his might,

Isa 9:18 For wickedness burneth as the fire: it shall devour the briers and thorns, and shall kindle in the thickets of the forest, and they shall mount up like the lifting up of smoke.

Hos 13:3 Therefore they shall be as the morning cloud, and as the early dew that passeth away, as the chaff that is driven with the whirlwind out of the floor, and as the smoke out of the chimney.

Ecc 9:6 Their love and their hate and their envy have already perished, and forever they have no more share in all that is done under the sun.

Psa 146:4 When his breath departs, he returns to the earth; on that very day his plans perish.

2Th 1:9 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the face of God and from the glory of his might,

Mat 7:23 And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'

Luk 13:25 When once the master of the house has risen and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and to knock at the door, saying, 'Lord, open to us,' then he will answer you, 'I do not know where you come from.'

Mat 25:33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left
 
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DrBubbaLove

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Is that from the Bible?
Well it is for people able to actually read and explain what they are reading. (hint: concept of sanctuary)
I guess it is not there for people uninterested in doing anything but making claims and unable to (or uninterested) explain how a single verse they repeatedly quote makes any sense in their view.
Even in one's own definition as posted it is impossible to insert the concept of "banishing" a flying pig. Impossible because it does not exist, so saying it can be "excluded from" somewhere makes absolutely no sense. Which is my point of asking how a single verse makes any sense in having what one claims no longer exists is "banished" from the "presence of the Lord" which CANNOT be understood as "banished" from everywhere.
Banishment. A form of punishment imposed on an individual, usually by a country or state, [or GOD] in which the individual is forced to remain outside of that country or state;
to drive out or remove from a home or place of usual resort or continuance
Related words: cast out, dismiss, eject, eliminate, evict, exclude, expel, expulse, kick out, oust, run out, throw out; excommunicate, reject, Merriam-Webster
.
So go ahead, explain how a flying pig can be "kicked out", "ejected", "cast out"....etc FROM the farm. Use it in a sentence to "prove" one's view of a single verse makes any sense at all.
 
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Butch5

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Hmm. There are some very well qualified people who disagree with the bit I bolded. Here's an example:

Professor Ramelli has been Professor of History of the Roman Near East, and Assistant of History of Ancient Philosophy since 2003 at the Catholic University of the Sacred Heart, Milan. She is internationally recognised as one of the foremost scholars of classic and early Christian literature and thought. As well as holding a number of senior visiting positions, including Senior Visiting Professor in Greek Thought (classical and Patristic) at NYU and Harvard, Ramelli is also scientific Consultant, member of directive and scientific boards of scholarly series and journals, and the Director of a number of international projects, including Director of the international Oxford Workshop on “The Soul in the Origenian Tradition.” Her contribution to her field and outstanding publication record contributed to her inclusion in the publications Great Minds of the 21st Century and 2000 Outstanding Intellectuals of the 21st Century. Lastly she has been awarded the Salute to Greatness Medal 2013 (Cambridge, UK) for Philosophy, Patristics, and Classics.

which I think you'll agree is a pretty impressive resume and suggests that she might know a thing or two about ancient Greek as written in the Bible.

David Konstan the John Rowe Workman Distinguished Professor of Classics and Professor of Comparative Literature, at Brown University​

which again is quite impressive.

In Terms for Eternity a scholarly work by Remelli and Konstan on the Greek word aiōn they wrote:

Apart from the Platonic philosophical vocabulary, which is specific to few authors, aiónios does not mean “eternal”; it acquires this meaning only when it refers to God, and only because the notion of eternity was included in the conception of God: for the rest, it has a wide range of meanings and its possible renderings are multiple, but it does not mean “eternal.”​

Kind regards,

Mike

This is a good post Mike, thanks!
 
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Der Alte

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Hmm. There are some very well qualified people who disagree with the bit I bolded. Here's an example:

Professor Ramelli has been Professor of History of the Roman Near East, and Assistant of History of Ancient Philosophy since 2003 at the Catholic University of the Sacred Heart, Milan. She is internationally recognised as one of the foremost scholars of classic and early Christian literature and thought. As well as holding a number of senior visiting positions, including Senior Visiting Professor in Greek Thought (classical and Patristic) at NYU and Harvard, Ramelli is also scientific Consultant, member of directive and scientific boards of scholarly series and journals, and the Director of a number of international projects, including Director of the international Oxford Workshop on “The Soul in the Origenian Tradition.” Her contribution to her field and outstanding publication record contributed to her inclusion in the publications Great Minds of the 21st Century and 2000 Outstanding Intellectuals of the 21st Century. Lastly she has been awarded the Salute to Greatness Medal 2013 (Cambridge, UK) for Philosophy, Patristics, and Classics.

which I think you'll agree is a pretty impressive resume and suggests that she might know a thing or two about ancient Greek as written in the Bible.[No evidence of this. DA]
David Konstan the John Rowe Workman Distinguished Professor of Classics and Professor of Comparative Literature, at Brown University​

which again is quite impressive. [Not really, no evidence, knowledge of Greek. DA]

In Terms for Eternity a scholarly work by Remelli and Konstan on the Greek word aiōn they wrote:

Apart from the Platonic philosophical vocabulary, which is specific to few authors, aiónios does not mean “eternal”; it acquires this meaning only when it refers to God, and only because the notion of eternity was included in the conception of God: for the rest, it has a wide range of meanings and its possible renderings are multiple, but it does not mean “eternal.”​

Kind regards,

Mike

What are Remelli and Konstan's qualifications in Koine Greek? On the other hand here are nine recognized Koine Greek language sources cited. Fourteen total references! 1. NAS Hebrew-Aramaic and Greek Dictionaries, 2. Thayer’s Lexicon, 3. Vine’s Expository of Biblical Words, 3 references, 4. Louw-Nida Greek English Lexicon of the NT based on Semantic Domains, 2 references, 5. Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, 6. Abridged Greek lexicon, Liddell-Scott, 7. Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon, 3 references, 8. Bauer, Arndt, Gingrich, Danker Greek English Lexicon of the NT and other Early Christian Literature, 9. Concise Greek-English Dictionary of the NT.

Aion, Aionios and the lexicons:
166.
αιωνιος aionios; from 165; agelong, eternal:— eternal(66), eternity(1), forever(1).
Thomas, Robert L., Th.D., General Editor, New American Standard Hebrew-Aramaic and Greek Dictionaries,​

166 aionios- αιωνιος
1) without beginning and end, what has always been and always will be
2) without beginning
3) without end, never to cease, everlasting

---Thayers​
2. &#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#962; aionios [166] "describes duration, either undefined but not endless, as in <Rom. 16:25; 2 Tim. 1:9; Titus 1:2>; or undefined because endless as in <Rom. 16:26>, and the other sixty-six places in the NT.

"The predominant meaning of &#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#962; , that in which it is used everywhere in the NT, save the places noted above, may be seen in <2 Cor. 4:18>, where it is set in contrast with proskairos, lit., `for a season,' and in <Philem. 15>, where only in the NT it is used without a noun. Moreover it is used of persons and things which are in their nature endless, as, e. g., of God, <Rom. 16:26>; of His power, <1 Tim. 6:16>, and of His glory, <1 Pet. 5:10>; of the Holy Spirit, <Heb. 9:14>; of the redemption effected by Christ, <Heb. 9:12>, and of the consequent salvation of men, <5:9>, as well as of His future rule, <2 Pet. 1:11>, which is elsewhere declared to be without end, <Luke 1:33>; of the life received by those who believe in Christ, <John 3:16>, concerning whom He said, `they shall never perish,' <10:28>, and of the resurrection body, <2 Cor. 5:1>, elsewhere said to be `immortal,' <1 Cor. 15:53>, in which that life will be finally realized, <Matt. 25:46; Titus 1:2>.

&#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#962; is also used of the sin that `hath never forgiveness,' <Mark 3:29>, and of the judgment of God, from which there is no appeal, <Heb. 6:2>, and of the fire, which is one of its instruments, <Matt. 18:8; 25:41; Jude 7>, and which is elsewhere said to be `unquenchable,' <Mark 9:43>.
"The use of &#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#962; here shows that the punishment referred to in <2 Thes. 1:9>, is not temporary, but final, and, accordingly, the phraseology shows that its purpose is not remedial but retributive."

From Notes on Thessalonians, by Hogg and Vine, pp 232, 233. (from Vine's Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words) (Copyright (C) 1985, Thomas Nelson Publishers)​

67.96 &#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#962; aji>vdio", on; aijwvnio", on: pertaining to an unlimited duration of time - &#8216;eternal.&#8217;
aji>vdio"ò h{ te aji>vdio" aujtou` duvnami" kai; qeiovth" &#8216;his eternal power and divine nature&#8217; Ro 1.20.
aijwvnio"ò blhqh`nai eij" to; pu`r to; aijwvnion &#8216;be thrown into the eternal fire&#8217; Mt 18.8; tou` aijwnivou qeou` &#8216;of the eternal God&#8217; Ro 16.26.

The most frequent use of &#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#962; in the NT is with zwhv &#8216;life,&#8217; for example, i{na pa`" oJ pisteuvwn ejn aujtw/` e[ch/ zwh;n aijwvnion &#8216;so that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life&#8217; Jn 3.15. In combination with zwhv there is evidently not only a temporal element, but also a qualitative distinction. In such contexts, &#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#962; evidently carries certain implications associated with &#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#962; in relationship to divine and supernatural attributes. If one translates &#8216;eternal life&#8217; as simply &#8216;never dying,&#8217; there may be serious misunderstandings, since persons may assume that &#8216;never dying&#8217; refers only to physical existence rather than to &#8216;spiritual death.&#8217; Accordingly, some translators have rendered &#8216;eternal life&#8217; as &#8216;unending real life,&#8217; so as to introduce a qualitative distinction.

Louw, Johannes P. and Nida, Eugene A., Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament based on Semantic Domains, (New York: United Bible Societies) 1988, 1989.​

&#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#962; aionios. An adjective meaning &#8220;eternal,&#8221; and found in the LXX in Pss. 24; 77:5; Gen. 21:33, aionios in the NT is used 1. of God (Rom. 16:26), 2. of divine possessions and gifts (2 Cor. 4:18; Heb. 9:14; 1 Pet. 5:10; 1 Tim. 6:16; 2 Th. 2:16, and 3. of the eternal kingdom (2 Pet. 1:11), inheritance (Heb. 9:15), body (2 Cor. 5:1), and even judgment (Heb. 6:2, though cf. Mt. 18:8; 2 Th. 1:9, where the sense is perhaps &#8220;unceasing&#8221;).

Kittel, Gerhard, and Friedrich, Gerhard, Editors, The Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, Abridged in One Volume, (Grand Rapids, Michigan: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company) 1985.​
&#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#962; aionios ", ov and a, ov, lasting for an age (aion 3), Plat.: ever-lasting, eternal, Id.

Liddell, H. G., and Scott, Abridged Greek-English Lexicon, (Oxford: Oxford University Press) 1992.​

166 aionios { ahee-o&#8217;-nee-os} &#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#962; from 165; TDNT - 1:208,31; adj
AV - eternal 42, everlasting 25, the world began + 5550 2, since the world began + 5550 1, for ever 1; 71
GK - 173 { aionios }
1) without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be
2) without beginning
3) without end, never to cease, everlasting


Enhanced Strong&#8217;s Lexicon, (Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.) 1995.​

CL The Gk. word &#945;&#953;&#969;&#957; aion, which is probably derived from aei, &#8230; It thus appeared appropriate to later philosophers to use the word both for the dim and distant past, the beginning of the world, and for the far future, eternity (e.g. Plato, Tim. 37d).

Plato (Timoeus, ed. Steph. 3, 37, or ed. Baiter, Orell. et Winck. 712) says, speaking of the universe: &#8230;The nature therefore of the animal (living being) was eternal (aionios, before aidios), and this indeed it was impossible to adapt to what was produced (to genneto, to what had a beginning); he thinks to make a moveable image of eternity (aionos), and in adoring the heavens he makes of the eternity permanent in unity a certain eternal image moving in number, &#8230; And after unfolding this, he says (p. 38): "But these forms of time imitating eternity (aiona), and rolling round according to number, have had a beginning (gegonen).... For that pattern exists for all eternity (panta aiona estin on), but on the other hand, that which is perpetual (dia telous) throughout all time has had a beginning, and is, and will be." &#8230; Aion is what is properly eternal, in contrast with a divine imitation of it in ages of time, the result of the creative action of God which imitated the uncreate as nearly as He could in created ages.. ]

In Plato the term is developed so as to represent a timeless, immeasurable and transcendent super-time, an idea of time in itself. Plutarch and the earlier Stoics appropriate this understanding, and from it the Mysteries of Aion, the god of eternity, could be celebrated in Alexandria, and gnosticism could undertake its own speculations on time.
* * *
NIDNTT Colin Brown​
Wherefore neither in place are things there formed by nature; nor does time cause them to grow old: neither is there any change of anything of those things which are arranged beyond the outermost orbit; but unchangeable, and subject to no influence, having the best and most independent life, they continue for all eternity (aiona). &#8230; According to the same word (logon) the completeness of the whole heaven, and the completeness which embraces all time and infinitude is aion, having received this name from existing for ever (apo tou aei einai), immortal (athanatos, undying), and divine." In 10 he goes on to shew that that beginning to be (genesthai) involves the not existing always, which I refer to as shewing what he means by aion. He is proving the unchangeable eternity of the visible universe. That is no business of mine; but it shews what he means by eternity (aion). It cannot be aidion and genesthai at the same time, when, as in Plato, aidios is used as equivalent to aionios
 
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Der Alte

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Philo, the sentence is in De Mundo, 7, en aioni de oute pareleluthen ouden, oute mellei, alla monon iphesteken. Such a definition needs no explanation: in eternity nothing is passed, nothing is about to be, but only subsists. This has the importance of being of the date and Hellenistic Greek of the New Testament, as the others give the regular, and at the same time philosophical force of the word, aion, aionios. Eternity, unchangeable, with no 'was' nor 'will be,' is its proper force, that it can be applied to the whole existence of a thing, so that nothing of its nature was before true or after is true, to telos to periechon. But its meaning is eternity, and eternal. … That is, things that are for a time are put in express contrast with aionia, which are not for a time, be it age or ages, but eternal. Nothing can be more decisive of its positive and specific meaning.

0166 aionios &#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#962; without beginning or end, eternal, everlasting
LEH lxx lexicon
UBS GNT Dict. # 169 (Str#166)
aionios eternal (of quality rather than of time); unending, everlasting, for all time
&#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#962; (iva Pla., Tim. 38b; Jer 39:40; Ezk 37:26; 2 Th 2:16; Hb 9:12; as v.l. Ac 13:48; 2 Pt 1:11; Bl-D. §59, 2; Mlt.-H. 157), on eternal (since Hyperid. 6, 27; Pla.; inscr., pap., LXX; Ps.-Phoc. 112; Test. 12 Patr.; standing epithet for princely, esp. imperial power: Dit., Or. Index VIII; BGU 176; 303; 309; Sb 7517, 5 [211/2 ad] kuvrio" aij.; al. in pap.; Jos., Ant. 7, 352).
1. without beginning crovnoi" aij. long ages ago Ro 16:25; pro; crovnwn aij. before time began 2 Ti 1:9; Tit 1:2 (on crovno" aij. cf. Dit., Or. 248, 54; 383, 10).
2. without beginning or end; of God (Ps.-Pla., Tim. Locr. 96c qeo;n t. aijwvnion; Inscr. in the Brit. Mus. 894 aij. k. ajqavnato"; Gen 21:33; Is 26:4; 40:28; Bar 4:8 al.; Philo, Plant. 8; 74; Sib. Or., fgm. 3, 17 and 4; PGM 1, 309; 13, 280) Ro 16:26; of the Holy Spirit in Christ Hb 9:14. qrovno" aij. 1 Cl 65:2 (cf. 1 Macc 2:57).
3. without end (Diod. S. 1, 1, 5; 5, 73, 1; 15, 66, 1 dovxa aij. everlasting fame; in Diod. S. 1, 93, 1 the Egyptian dead are said to have passed to their aij. …keep someone forever Phlm 15 (cf. Job 40:28). …On the other hand of eternal life (Maximus Tyr. 6, 1d qeou` zwh; aij.; Diod. S. 8, 15, 3 life meta; to;n qavnaton lasts eij" a{panta aijw`na; Da 12:2; 4 Macc 15:3; PsSol 3, 12; Philo, …carav IPhld inscr.; doxavzesqai aijwnivw/ e[rgw/ be glorified by an everlasting deed IPol 8:1. DHill, Gk. Words and Hebr. Mngs. ’67, 186-201. M-M.

Bauer, Walter, Gingrich, F. Wilbur, and Danker, Frederick W., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, (Chicago: University of Chicago Press) 1979.​

BIBLE STUDY MANUALS - AIONIOS -- AN IN DEPTH STUDY

&#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#962;
• Strong's - Greek 165

• NRSV (the uses of the word in various contexts in the NRSV text):
again, age, course, end, eternal, forever, permanent, time, world, worlds

• CGED (A Concise Greek-English Dictionary of the New Testament, by Barclay M. Newman, New York: United Bible Societies, 1993, page 5):
age; world order; eternity (ap aion or pro aion, from the beginning; eis aion, and the strengthened form eis tous aion, ton aion, always, forever);

• The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology [NIDNTT], Volume 3 (edited by Colin Brown, Grand Rapids, Michigan: Zondervan, 1978, page 827, 830):

In Plato the term [aion] is developed so as to represent a timeless, immeasurable and transcendent super-time, an idea of time in itself. Plutarch and other earlier Stoics appropriate this understanding, and from it the Mysteries of Aion, the god of eternity, could be celebrated in Alexandria, and gnosticism could undertake its own speculations on time.

The statements of the Johannine [John, 1 John, 2 John, 3 John] writings, … reveal a strong inclination to conceive of a timeless, because post-temporal, eternity… As in the OT [Old Testament], these statements reveal the background conviction that God's life never ends, i.e. that everything belonging to him can also never come to an end…

aion - &#945;&#953;&#969;&#957; - age, world
A. "for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity; the worlds, universe; period of time, age."

Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon, (Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.) 1995, [Online] Available: Logos Library System.

• aionion, aionios – &#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#957;, &#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#962; - eternal
B. "aionios," the adjective corresponding, denoting eternal. It is used of that which in nature is endless, as, e.g., of God, (Rom. 16:26), His power, (1 Tim. 6:16), His glory, (1 Pet. 5:10), the Holy Spirit, (Heb. 9:14), redemption, (Heb. 9:12), salvation, (5:9), life in Christ, (John 3:16), the resurrection body, (2 Cor. 5:1), the future rule of Christ, (2 Pet. 1:11), which is declared to be without end, (Luke 1:33), of sin that never has forgiveness, (Mark 3:29), the judgment of God, (Heb. 6:2), and of fire, one of its instruments, (Matt. 18:8; 25:41; Jude 7)."
i. Rom. 16:26 - " . . .according to the commandment of the eternal God. . ."
ii. 1 Tim. 6:16 - ". . . To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen."
iii. 1 Pet. 5:10 - " . . . who called you to His eternal glory in Christ,"
iv. Mark 3:29 - " . . . never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin."
v. etc.

SOURCE: Vine, W. E., Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, (Grand Rapids, MI: Fleming H. Revell) 1981, Available: Logos Library System.

• "describes duration, either undefined but not endless, as in Rom. 16:25; 2 Tim. 1:9; Tit. 1:2; or undefined because endless as in Rom. 16:26, and the other sixty–six places in the N.T.
A. Rom. 16:25 - " . . which has been kept secret for long ages past,"
B. Rom 16:26 - ". . . according to the commandment of the eternal God,"
C. 2 Tim. 1:9 - ". . . which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,"
D. Titus 1:2 - "the hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised" long ages ago"

SOURCE: Vine, W. E., Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, (Grand Rapids, MI: Fleming H. Revell) 1981, [Online] Available: Logos Library System)

• Eis tous aionios ton aionion – &#949;&#953;&#962; &#964;&#959;&#965;&#962; &#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#945;&#962; &#964;&#969;&#957; &#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#969;&#959;&#957; - Forever and Ever, Lit. "into the age of the ages"
A. "unlimited duration of time, with particular focus upon the future - ‘always, forever, forever and ever, eternally."
B. Phil. 4:20 - ". . .to our God and Father be the glory forever and ever."
C. Rev. 19:3 - " . . .Her smoke rises up forever and ever."
D. Rev. 20:20 - "And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."

SOURCE: Louw, Johannes P. and Nida, Eugene A., Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament based on Semantic Domains, (New York: United Bible Societies) 1988, 1989, Available: Logos Library System.
 
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Ariston

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Philo, the sentence is in De Mundo, 7, en aioni de oute pareleluthen ouden, oute mellei, alla monon iphesteken. Such a definition needs no explanation: in eternity nothing is passed, nothing is about to be, but only subsists. This has the importance of being of the date and Hellenistic Greek of the New Testament, as the others give the regular, and at the same time philosophical force of the word, aion, aionios. Eternity, unchangeable, with no 'was' nor 'will be,' is its proper force, that it can be applied to the whole existence of a thing, so that nothing of its nature was before true or after is true, to telos to periechon. But its meaning is eternity, and eternal. … That is, things that are for a time are put in express contrast with aionia, which are not for a time, be it age or ages, but eternal. Nothing can be more decisive of its positive and specific meaning.

0166 aionios &#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#962; without beginning or end, eternal, everlasting
LEH lxx lexicon
UBS GNT Dict. # 169 (Str#166)
aionios eternal (of quality rather than of time); unending, everlasting, for all time
&#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#962; (iva Pla., Tim. 38b; Jer 39:40; Ezk 37:26; 2 Th 2:16; Hb 9:12; as v.l. Ac 13:48; 2 Pt 1:11; Bl-D. §59, 2; Mlt.-H. 157), on eternal (since Hyperid. 6, 27; Pla.; inscr., pap., LXX; Ps.-Phoc. 112; Test. 12 Patr.; standing epithet for princely, esp. imperial power: Dit., Or. Index VIII; BGU 176; 303; 309; Sb 7517, 5 [211/2 ad] kuvrio" aij.; al. in pap.; Jos., Ant. 7, 352).
1. without beginning crovnoi" aij. long ages ago Ro 16:25; pro; crovnwn aij. before time began 2 Ti 1:9; Tit 1:2 (on crovno" aij. cf. Dit., Or. 248, 54; 383, 10).
2. without beginning or end; of God (Ps.-Pla., Tim. Locr. 96c qeo;n t. aijwvnion; Inscr. in the Brit. Mus. 894 aij. k. ajqavnato"; Gen 21:33; Is 26:4; 40:28; Bar 4:8 al.; Philo, Plant. 8; 74; Sib. Or., fgm. 3, 17 and 4; PGM 1, 309; 13, 280) Ro 16:26; of the Holy Spirit in Christ Hb 9:14. qrovno" aij. 1 Cl 65:2 (cf. 1 Macc 2:57).
3. without end (Diod. S. 1, 1, 5; 5, 73, 1; 15, 66, 1 dovxa aij. everlasting fame; in Diod. S. 1, 93, 1 the Egyptian dead are said to have passed to their aij. …keep someone forever Phlm 15 (cf. Job 40:28). …On the other hand of eternal life (Maximus Tyr. 6, 1d qeou` zwh; aij.; Diod. S. 8, 15, 3 life meta; to;n qavnaton lasts eij" a{panta aijw`na; Da 12:2; 4 Macc 15:3; PsSol 3, 12; Philo, …carav IPhld inscr.; doxavzesqai aijwnivw/ e[rgw/ be glorified by an everlasting deed IPol 8:1. DHill, Gk. Words and Hebr. Mngs. ’67, 186-201. M-M.

Bauer, Walter, Gingrich, F. Wilbur, and Danker, Frederick W., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, (Chicago: University of Chicago Press) 1979.​

BIBLE STUDY MANUALS - AIONIOS -- AN IN DEPTH STUDY

&#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#962;
• Strong's - Greek 165

• NRSV (the uses of the word in various contexts in the NRSV text):
again, age, course, end, eternal, forever, permanent, time, world, worlds

• CGED (A Concise Greek-English Dictionary of the New Testament, by Barclay M. Newman, New York: United Bible Societies, 1993, page 5):
age; world order; eternity (ap aion or pro aion, from the beginning; eis aion, and the strengthened form eis tous aion, ton aion, always, forever);

• The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology [NIDNTT], Volume 3 (edited by Colin Brown, Grand Rapids, Michigan: Zondervan, 1978, page 827, 830):

In Plato the term [aion] is developed so as to represent a timeless, immeasurable and transcendent super-time, an idea of time in itself. Plutarch and other earlier Stoics appropriate this understanding, and from it the Mysteries of Aion, the god of eternity, could be celebrated in Alexandria, and gnosticism could undertake its own speculations on time.

The statements of the Johannine [John, 1 John, 2 John, 3 John] writings, … reveal a strong inclination to conceive of a timeless, because post-temporal, eternity… As in the OT [Old Testament], these statements reveal the background conviction that God's life never ends, i.e. that everything belonging to him can also never come to an end…

aion - &#945;&#953;&#969;&#957; - age, world
A. "for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity; the worlds, universe; period of time, age."

Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon, (Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.) 1995, [Online] Available: Logos Library System.

• aionion, aionios – &#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#957;, &#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#962; - eternal
B. "aionios," the adjective corresponding, denoting eternal. It is used of that which in nature is endless, as, e.g., of God, (Rom. 16:26), His power, (1 Tim. 6:16), His glory, (1 Pet. 5:10), the Holy Spirit, (Heb. 9:14), redemption, (Heb. 9:12), salvation, (5:9), life in Christ, (John 3:16), the resurrection body, (2 Cor. 5:1), the future rule of Christ, (2 Pet. 1:11), which is declared to be without end, (Luke 1:33), of sin that never has forgiveness, (Mark 3:29), the judgment of God, (Heb. 6:2), and of fire, one of its instruments, (Matt. 18:8; 25:41; Jude 7)."
i. Rom. 16:26 - " . . .according to the commandment of the eternal God. . ."
ii. 1 Tim. 6:16 - ". . . To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen."
iii. 1 Pet. 5:10 - " . . . who called you to His eternal glory in Christ,"
iv. Mark 3:29 - " . . . never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin."
v. etc.

SOURCE: Vine, W. E., Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, (Grand Rapids, MI: Fleming H. Revell) 1981, Available: Logos Library System.

• "describes duration, either undefined but not endless, as in Rom. 16:25; 2 Tim. 1:9; Tit. 1:2; or undefined because endless as in Rom. 16:26, and the other sixty–six places in the N.T.
A. Rom. 16:25 - " . . which has been kept secret for long ages past,"
B. Rom 16:26 - ". . . according to the commandment of the eternal God,"
C. 2 Tim. 1:9 - ". . . which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,"
D. Titus 1:2 - "the hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised" long ages ago"

SOURCE: Vine, W. E., Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, (Grand Rapids, MI: Fleming H. Revell) 1981, [Online] Available: Logos Library System)

• Eis tous aionios ton aionion – &#949;&#953;&#962; &#964;&#959;&#965;&#962; &#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#945;&#962; &#964;&#969;&#957; &#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#969;&#959;&#957; - Forever and Ever, Lit. "into the age of the ages"
A. "unlimited duration of time, with particular focus upon the future - ‘always, forever, forever and ever, eternally."
B. Phil. 4:20 - ". . .to our God and Father be the glory forever and ever."
C. Rev. 19:3 - " . . .Her smoke rises up forever and ever."
D. Rev. 20:20 - "And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."

SOURCE: Louw, Johannes P. and Nida, Eugene A., Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament based on Semantic Domains, (New York: United Bible Societies) 1988, 1989, Available: Logos Library System.

Excellent post. Offering evidence is certainly more helpful than giving a long list of credentials of a single scholar who disagrees.
 
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Phantasman

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In Terms for Eternity a scholarly work by Remelli and Konstan on the Greek word ai&#333;n they wrote:
Apart from the Platonic philosophical vocabulary, which is specific to few authors, aiónios does not mean “eternal”; it acquires this meaning only when it refers to God, and only because the notion of eternity was included in the conception of God: for the rest, it has a wide range of meanings and its possible renderings are multiple, but it does not mean “eternal.”​
Kind regards,

Mike

Interesting, Mike.

Aion may refer to: Aeon (WIKI)



The non Canon Gospels and scriptures refer to (the) different Aeons.

To me, understanding them took some time, but once understood, the scriptures (all) came alive.

The perfect Savior said: "I praise you (pl.) because you ask about the great aeons, for your roots are in the infinities.- Sophia of Jesus Christ.
 
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Der Alte

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Excellent post. Offering evidence is certainly more helpful than giving a long list of credentials of a single scholar who disagrees.

Thank you. This was the second part, the first part is on the previous page. A total of nine recognized Koine Greek languages sources. As you have observed the post I was responding to quoted some opinions from "scholars" with no stated expertise in Greek.
 
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Ariston

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@ Der Alter

I am in agreement with you. I think that the Apostolic and traditional position is well-grounded. But I find the notion to be a difficult one to cope with when I have family who has no regard for God and know that so many people will suffer this end. How do you cope or how can I better cope with this knowledge? It makes me somewhat gloomy to know this as it did Paul who said that he had unceasing anguish in his heart over his people who rejected the Lord.
 
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Der Alte

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Interesting, Mike.

Aion may refer to: Aeon (WIKI)


The non Canon Gospels and scriptures refer to (the) different Aeons.

To me, understanding them took some time, but once understood, the scriptures (all) came alive.

The perfect Savior said: "I praise you (pl.) because you ask about the great aeons, for your roots are in the infinities.- Sophia of Jesus Christ.

Wiki is about as reliable as the scribblings on a public facility wall. Do you think it is more reliable than the nine recognized Koine Greek language I quoted?

1. NAS Hebrew-Aramaic and Greek Dictionaries, 2. Thayer’s Lexicon, 3. Vine’s Expository of Biblical Words, 3 references, 4. Louw-Nida Greek English Lexicon of the NT based on Semantic Domains, 2 references, 5. Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, 6. Abridged Greek lexicon, Liddell-Scott, 7. Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon, 3 references, 8. Bauer, Arndt, Gingrich, Danker Greek English Lexicon of the NT and other Early Christian Literature, 9. Concise Greek-English Dictionary of the NT.​
 
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@ Der Alter

I am in agreement with you. I think that the Apostolic and traditional position is well-grounded. But I find the notion to be a difficult one to cope with when I have family who has no regard for God and know that so many people will suffer this end. How do you cope or how can I better cope with this knowledge? It makes me somewhat gloomy to know this as it did Paul who said that he had unceasing anguish in his heart over his people who rejected the Lord.

Pray without ceasing. We never know when someone dear to us will accept Jesus. Some years ago a pastor friend of mine visited the bed ridden, comatose husband of one of our church members. Week after week he would stop by, read scripture, witness a little, and pray. One day the man awoke but could not speak. He made signs that he wanted to write something. They handed him a pad and a pen, he wrote, "Bro. Tony was here I am ready."
 
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Ariston

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Pray without ceasing. We never know when someone dear to us will accept Jesus. Some years ago a pastor friend of mine visited the bed ridden, comatose husband of one of our church members. Week after week he would stop by, read scripture, witness a little, and pray. One day the man awoke but could not speak. He made signs that he wanted to write something. They handed him a pad and a pen, he wrote, "Bro. Tony was here I am ready."

Amen. Remain in him and with fear and reverence and in humility through the Lord and for the sake of the world, continue to refute heresies. Do not be conformed but be transformed through the renewing of your mind. May the grace of our Lord Jesus be with you in everything that you do.
 
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Phantasman

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Wiki is about as reliable as the scribblings on a public facility wall. Do you think it is more reliable than the nine recognized Koine Greek language I quoted?
1. NAS Hebrew-Aramaic and Greek Dictionaries, 2. Thayer’s Lexicon, 3. Vine’s Expository of Biblical Words, 3 references, 4. Louw-Nida Greek English Lexicon of the NT based on Semantic Domains, 2 references, 5. Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, 6. Abridged Greek lexicon, Liddell-Scott, 7. Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon, 3 references, 8. Bauer, Arndt, Gingrich, Danker Greek English Lexicon of the NT and other Early Christian Literature, 9. Concise Greek-English Dictionary of the NT.​

Who knows? What do "they" say aion means. We seek spiritual truth, not a language. What do they say about the Codex Sinaiticus. Do all agree on the content?
 
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Der Alte

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Who knows? What do "they" say aion means. We seek spiritual truth, not a language. What do they say about the Codex Sinaiticus. Do all agree on the content?

The nine Koine Greek sources I referenced in the post you quoted, I quoted from in two back to back posts [post=65007085]post#70-71[/post] in this thread. Please feel free to read them and find out what they say about "aion" and to interpret Codex Sinaiicus in light of the nine sources.
 
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The nine Koine Greek sources I referenced in the post you quoted, I quoted from in two back to back posts [post=65007085]post#70-71[/post] in this thread. Please feel free to read them and find out what they say about "aion" and to interpret Codex Sinaiicus in light of the nine sources.

The word does mean Eternal, what is eternal? Eternal Nonexistence/Death for those who do not obey YHWH's Law(Matthew 7:12, "In everything, therefore, Treat others the same way you would want them to treat you for this Is The Law" - Jesus Christ(YHWH), remember, sin means lawlessness/not treating others the same way you would want them to treat you(1 John 3:4)

Eternal Torment is nowhere in the Bible, every supposed verse is refuted and proven to be annihilation.

John 3:35-36 - " The Father loves the Son and has given all things into His hand. 36 He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

Note the word for wrath is org&#275;, which is used in the Septuagint to translate the Hebrew word, aph/ &#1488;&#1463;&#1507;,(septuagint deuteronomy 9:19), which also meant breath, face, nostrils, etc,

Used in passages such as Genesis 2:7 - "Then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils{aph) the breath of life; and man became a living being." - Genesis 2:7 Lexicon: Then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

Genesis 19:1 - "Now the two angels came to Sodom in the evening as Lot was sitting in the gate of Sodom. When Lot saw them, he rose to meet them and bowed down with his face(aph) to the ground." =http://biblehub.com/lexicon/genesis/19-1.htm

So it doesn't mean just wrath, has various other meanings, such as face, breath, nostrils

The word has something to do with power, kind of like power of God, God's power includes truth, all powerful, justice, peace, restoration etc, so it would make sense if translated as the restoration, power or justice. as under the wrath definition, Romans 1:18 wouldn't make sense, because wrath isn't being revealed, it's God's Truth that's being revealed.

Evident also is that Romans 1 has translation problems, shown here,Ruminating Romans: Was Paul a Diatribalist? | Eclectic Orthodoxy
 
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