Eternal Torment is nowhere in The Bible

Ariston

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So it seems that the first passage with its reference in Isaiah 66 is highly metaphorical. That being said, it is difficult to get annihilationism out of it. If it is read literally, then one would have to hold that their dead flesh is burning eternally which really does not make sense in light of the judgment and new creation texts in the last several chapters of Isaiah which communicate eschatology in highly figurative language. So, though "...where their worm does not die and fire is not quenched," is a pronouncement of an eternal sentence that could go either way, in light of Daniel 12, Jesus, and Paul, annihilation seems dubious.

So the Rich Man and Lazarus explanation offered above seems quite a bit worse off. This is descriptive of torment in Judgement. That God would resurrect tormented souls to bodies for annihilation is not a Biblical notion nor does it seem seem reasonable in light of the description in Revelations in which final judgment is described as "be[ing] tormented day and night forever and ever." That is to say, even if this texts refers to an intermediate period before Judgment, which it may, final judgment is bodily and eternal as Daniel 12 explicitly states.

In following Second Temple Judaism and the description of Resurrection to Eternal Judgement taught in Daniel 12 (see post #12), both Jesus and Paul affirm the resurrection of the righteous and the unrighteous:

"And he has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of Man (See Daniel 7:13-14). Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment. - (Jn. 5:27)

This is later reafirmed when Jesus tells Martha in the distinct story later in John's Gospel,

“I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day.”

Paul then, the expert in Jewish Law and most important missionary and propagator of the Christian faith, according to Acts claims,

"But this I confess to you, that according to the Way, which they call a sect, I worship the God of our fathers, believing everything laid down by the Law and written in the Prophets, having a hope in God, which these men themselves accept, that there will be a resurrection of both the just and the unjust." (Acts 24:14-15).

Following his traditional Jewish beliefs, Paul emphasizes the bodily nature of the resurrection throughout his letters as well:

"For in this tent we groan, longing to put on our heavenly dwelling, if indeed by putting it on we may not be found naked. For while we are still in this tent, we groan, being burdened—not that we would be unclothed, but that we would be further clothed, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who has given us the Spirit as a guarantee." - 2 Corinthians 5:2-5

and then,

"But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself." - (Philippians 3:20-21)

Though, these two passages are only in regards to the resurrection of the righteous, following Paul's explicit position in Acts 24 (see above), a resurrection of the unjust is in order as well. In other words, it is very problematic to reject anything other than a bodily resurrection of the righteous to glory and the wicked to everlasting contempt and shame (see post #18) in the New Testament. This appears to be the mainstream position handed on through tradition and affirmed in the churches during the second century as well. Thus Paul deserves to be heard in all his Jewishness in teaching judgment of the wicked as the bodily resurrection as everlasting shame when he affirms in his Letter to the Romans:

"He will render to each one according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury. There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. For God shows no partiality." - Romans 2:5-11
 
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...The rich man also died and was buried, and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. ...

I think Hades is not same as hell, because it is also thrown in the second death.

Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. If anyone was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire.
Revelation 20:12-15

I think it is also good to notice that the fire burns eternally. But it is not said that people live in that fire eternally.

Also it is interesting thing that the Bible says also this about hell:

And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell.
James 3:6

So, I would say maybe hell is not as simple thing as people tend to think and maybe also it should be studied by this scripture:

Now the natural man doesn't receive the things of God's Spirit, for they are foolishness to him, and he can't know them, because they are spiritually discerned. But he who is spiritual discerns all things, and he himself is judged by no one.
1 Cor. 2:14-15
 
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So it seems that the first passage with its reference in Isaiah 66 is highly metaphorical. That being said, it is difficult to get annihilationism out of it. If it is read literally, then one would have to hold that their dead flesh is burning eternally which really does not make sense in light of the judgment and new creation texts in the last several chapters of Isaiah which communicate eschatology in highly figurative language.

So, though "...where their worm does not die and fire is not quenched," is a pronouncement of an eternal sentence that could go either way, in light of Daniel 12, Jesus, and Paul, annihilation seems dubious.

No it doesn't, it's clear, Isaiah 66:24 "And they will go out and look on the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; the worms that eat them will not die, the fire that burns them will not be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind."

They're dead, stop suppressing the truth in unrighteousness.

So the Rich Man and Lazarus explanation offered above seems quite a bit worse off. This is descriptive of torment in Judgement.

No it isn't #1, it looks to be an interpolation as it contradicts a majority of text, especially mercy. #2 even if not an interpolation, it's not eternal torment, Lazarus and the Rich Man: It’s Not About Final Punishment | Rethinking Hell

That God would resurrect tormented souls to bodies for annihilation is not a Biblical notion nor does it seem seem reasonable

Then you haven't really studied the Bible, Revelation 20:14 - "Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire."

Lake of Fire = Second death, people are resurrected and then judged.

in light of the description in Revelations in which final judgment is described as "be[ing] tormented day and night forever and ever." That is to say, even if this texts refers to an intermediate period before Judgment, which it may, final judgment is bodily and eternal as Daniel 12 explicitly states.

No, it's not torment as in Physical Torture, could also be a torture/torment such as Death. this stems from Isaiah 34:10 - "It will not be quenched night or day; Its smoke will go up forever. From generation to generation it will be desolate; None will pass through it forever and ever."

Explicit Mistakes: A Response to Matt Chandler | Rethinking Hell

So again, no eternal torment, Annihilation is the true doctrine

In following Second Temple Judaism and the description of Resurrection to Eternal Judgement taught in Daniel 12 (see post #12), both Jesus and Paul affirm the resurrection of the righteous and the unrighteous:

"And he has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of Man (See Daniel 7:13-14). Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment. - (Jn. 5:27)

And there you did it again, proving eternal torment is false,

"those who have done good to the resurrection of Life"

and "those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgement"

Those who have done evil don't get the Resurrection of Life, if they don't get life/Existence then they are dead.

Annihilation proven again.

This is later reafirmed when Jesus tells Martha in the distinct story later in John's Gospel,

“I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day.”

Paul then, the expert in Jewish Law and most important missionary and propagator of the Christian faith, according to Acts claims,

"But this I confess to you, that according to the Way, which they call a sect, I worship the God of our fathers, believing everything laid down by the Law and written in the Prophets, having a hope in God, which these men themselves accept, that there will be a resurrection of both the just and the unjust." (Acts 24:14-15).

Following his traditional Jewish beliefs, Paul emphasizes the bodily nature of the resurrection throughout his letters as well:

"For in this tent we groan, longing to put on our heavenly dwelling, if indeed by putting it on we may not be found naked. For while we are still in this tent, we groan, being burdened—not that we would be unclothed, but that we would be further clothed, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who has given us the Spirit as a guarantee." - 2 Corinthians 5:2-5

and then,

"But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself." - (Philippians 3:20-21)

"He will render to each one according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury.

So whoever does good gets Eternal Life, those who do not obey Do Not get Life, they die.

And wrath here doesn't mean anger or violence, as the word for wrath is used for those who Do not get Life, meaning they can't suffer, it means Justice for lack of a better word, Strong's Greek: 3709. ὀργή (orgé) -- impulse, wrath

Which is used in John 3:35-36 "35 The Father loves the Son and has given all things into His hand. 36 He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not [a]obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

So wrath means Justice(For Lack of a better word) and here the word is used for death, as they will not see Life.


And fury doesn't mean violence or torture as well, for example I am angry when someone harms another, doesn't mean I hurt others.

There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. For God shows no partiality." - Romans 2:5-11

There will be tribulation and distress, the sinners die, that's the tribulation and that's what's causing the distress.

You have provided no verses proving eternal torment and have not refuted John 3:35-36, Annihilation is the truth of YHWH(The Father and The Son and The Holy Spirit)
 
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I think Hades is not same as hell, because it is also thrown in the second death.

Hades is Hell, Hell is a translation of Hades, which means the Grave, Hell means Grave.

Go to rethinkinghell.com for more, Jude 1:7 says Sodom and Gomorrah are the Example of Eternal Fire, Remember Sodom and Gomorrah were Annihilated.

Eternal Fire, basically the fire has eternally consequences, Nonexistence/Death.

Jesus Christ said that they will not see Life,

John 3:35-36 - " "35 The Father loves the Son and has given all things into His hand. 36 He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not [a]obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

So wrath means Justice(For Lack of a better word) and not wrath as in violence here the word is used for death, as they will not see Life.
 
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Butch5

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Rethinking Hell | Exploring Evangelical Conditionalism (Annihilationism)

Lets start here, John 3:35-36 - ""The Father loves the Son and has given all things into His hand. 36"He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.""

The Wrath of God is not Life, So wrath of God is Death to those who harm others(1 John 3) who are Lawless of Matthew 7:12

Wrath of God means basically the Justice of God, not madness, read The Word, Strong's Greek: 3709. ὀργή (orgé) -- impulse, wrath means to stop evil/oppose evil(which is harm)

Meaning the wrath of God is a mistranslation and actually means Justice/ending evil(harm)(For lack of a better word)


Those who do not Treat others the same way they would want others to treat them(Matthew 7:12) will not see Life, they will cease to exist.


Now, lets go to what Eternal Fire/Lake of Fire terms mean because alot of people simply believe in the World(Colossians 2:20-23) rather than The Apostles & Prophets who are of YHWH,

Jude 1:7 - "just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire."

Sodom and Gomorrah no longer exist, that city was annihilated, and That is according to Jude 1:7 The example of Eternal Fire, Eternal Fire means Death, hence the Term Eternal Fire, the Fire has Eternal consequences, Nonexistence. Fire burns out it doesn't keep burning, it annihilates.

Revelation 20:14 - "Then death and Hades(Hell) were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire."

The Lake of fire isn't some literal lake, it's defined clear cut, no excuses, "This is the second death, the lake of fire"

Then we have people claiming this supports eternal torment, Matthew 25:46 - ""These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.""

However this assumes that Punishments means eternal torment, that's Assuming Eternal Torment into the text, as Punishment can also mean Death, add that with the fact that Torture is never ever used as punishment in the bible, in the Old or New Testament, but Death is, even stoning was made painless, as it rendered you unconscious( Jewish Law - Legal Briefs ("Bryan v. Moore2") )

It just proves that Annihilation is true, it's so clear, "but the righteous into eternal life" The Righteous get Eternal life, not those who get punished,

the ones who get punished Do Not get what The Righteous get, which is Eternal Life, they do not get Eternal Life, if they do not get Life/Existence, then their Dead/They don't exist.

They will cease to exist forever.

So that proves annihilation as well,


Then people use, revelation 14:11, "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever." but that's also refuted as the term was used in the Old testament to describe something that Did Not last forever and ever.

Explicit Mistakes: A Response to Matt Chandler | Rethinking Hell



The Isaiah passage referred to in that quote is, Isaiah 34:10.

So there you have it, not one passage of eternal torment, YHWH said Love your enemies(Matthew 5:42-48),

The Law is Matthew 7:12 - "Therefore in Everything, Treat others the same way you would want them to treat you, for this Is the Law and the Prophets" - Jesus Christ(YHWH)

YHWH(The Father and The Son and The Holy Spirit) would never refuse to do this, as He Is Love(1 John 4:8) and He Does not Sin(James 1:13, 1 John 3:4) He cannot nor will ever be Lawless of Matthew 7:12

Eternal Torment is false and nowhere found in The Bible.


No it's not.
 
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he-man

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So it seems that the first passage with its reference in Isaiah 66 is highly metaphorical. That being said, it is difficult to get annihilationism out of it. If it is read literally, then one would have to hold that their dead flesh is burning eternally which really does not make sense in light of the judgment and new creation texts in the last several chapters of Isaiah which communicate eschatology in highly figurative language. So, though "...where their worm does not die and fire is not quenched," is a pronouncement of an eternal sentence that could go either way, in light of Daniel 12, Jesus, and Paul, annihilation seems dubious.
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No it's not.

Yes it is,

see? I can do it too. atheists always do that when I prove YHWH exists, I prove that He exists and they suppress the truth and assert I didn't.

Eternal Torment is unbiblical, Jesus Christ said they will not see Life, in John 3:35-36, read first post again.

Also read, what is sin, savedbychrist94.blogspot.com/2013/10/what-is-sin.html

Lust is not a sin, savedbychrist94.blogspot.com/2013/04/lust-is-not-sin.html

Homosexuality is not a sin - savedbychrist94.blogspot.com/2014/01/homosexuality-is-not-sin-irrefutable.html
 
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Phantasman

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Eternal Torment is false and nowhere found in The Bible.

It is an "outer area". Lacking of life and love.

Christ referred to this 'outer' area at different times. But people are blinded by Lukes rich man parable.

Matthew
29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath. 30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

And

And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven. 12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 13 And Jesus said unto the centurion, Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee. And his servant was healed in the selfsame hour.

And

And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment: 12 and he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless. 13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

This is figurative, of course. Souls do not have teeth. And eyes see darkness and light. People take the Bible too literally. Christ taught in spirit, and it has to be imagined spiritually. And names are deceiving since they are only used in this world.

Names given to the worldly are very deceptive, for they divert our thoughts from what is correct to what is incorrect. Thus one who hears the word "God" does not perceive what is correct, but perceives what is incorrect. So also with "the Father" and "the Son" and "the Holy Spirit" and "life" and "light" and "resurrection" and "the Church (Ekklesia)" and all the rest - people do not perceive what is correct but they perceive what is incorrect, unless they have come to know what is correct. The names which are heard are in the world [...] deceive. If they were in the Aeon (eternal realm), they would at no time be used as names in the world. Nor were they set among worldly things. They have an end in the Aeon. -Philip
 
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he-man

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So it seems that the first passage with its reference in Isaiah 66 is highly metaphorical. That being said, it is difficult to get annihilationism out of it. If it is read literally, then one would have to hold that their dead flesh is burning eternally which really does not make sense in light of the judgment and new creation texts in the last several chapters of Isaiah which communicate eschatology in highly figurative language. So, though "...where their worm does not die and fire is not quenched," is a pronouncement of an eternal sentence that could go either way, in light of Daniel 12, Jesus, and Paul, annihilation seems dubious.
dubious? :doh:
They are as wax melteth before the fire, so let the ungodly perish from the Face of God. Vaporized, like smoke at the presence of God, and shall pay the penalty of everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord.

Psa 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away

Psa 1:4 The ungodly are not so: but are like the chaff which the wind driveth away.
5 Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.
6 For the LORD knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.

So where is your scripture? Can you address the scripture with scripture? [/B]

Such is the case with the ungodly that perish from the face of God and that means before they will see the face of God, they do not exist because they have already been vaporized like smoke and will never be seen again for all eternity.

Psa 18:8 There went up a smoke out of his nostrils, and fire out of his mouth devoured:coals were kindled by it.

Psa 68:2 As smoke is driven away, so drive them away: as wax melteth before the fire, so let the ungodly perish from the face of God.

2Th 1:9 who shall pay the penalty of everlasting destruction from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his might,

Isa 9:18 For wickedness burneth as the fire: it shall devour the briers and thorns, and shall kindle in the thickets of the forest, and they shall mount up like the lifting up of smoke.

Hos 13:3 Therefore they shall be as the morning cloud, and as the early dew that passeth away, as the chaff that is driven with the whirlwind out of the floor, and as the smoke out of the chimney.

Ecc 9:6 Their love and their hate and their envy have already perished, and forever they have no more share in all that is done under the sun.

Psa 146:4 When his breath departs, he returns to the earth; on that very day his plans perish.

2Th 1:9 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the face of God and from the glory of his might,

Mat 7:23 And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'

Luk 13:25 When once the master of the house has risen and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and to knock at the door, saying, 'Lord, open to us,' then he will answer you, 'I do not know where you come from.'

Mat 25:33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left.
 
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DrBubbaLove

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Heman,
You keep posting verses. I would like to know how this verse you post is understood in your view.
2Th 1:9 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the face of God and from the glory of his might,

If
the people suffering are annihilated how can it be said they are "away" from anything?

Something which ceases to be is not "away" from anything. It no longer exists. To then speak of it as "being" somewhere or not somewhere (as in presence of the Lord or "away from" is nonsensical. So how does that verse make sense to you in light of your view?

 
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MikeBigg

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There are at this time four current threads on this topic in UT, all were started by outraged opponents of eternal torment. If they didn't start the threads there would be no outrage.

Well, I just re-read the OP of this thread and I don't see any outrage.

What I tend to see by people supporting Universal Reconciliation is an attitude of grace towards other posters.

Funny isn't it that the one position that maximises God's grace has people showing more grace than others.

To those readers who have become dissatisfied with the tradition view of eternal concious torment it is worth looking into Christian or Evangelical Universalism.

Good places to start are at tentmaker.org and hopebeyondhell.net .

At hope beyond hell the pdf version of a book by that name is available for free download. There is also an abridged 48 page version. And a print copy available at amazon.


Mike
 
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DrBubbaLove

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Well, I just re-read the OP of this thread and I don't see any outrage.

What I tend to see by people supporting Universal Reconciliation is an attitude of grace towards other posters.

Funny isn't it that the one position that maximises God's grace has people showing more grace than others.

To those readers who have become dissatisfied with the tradition view of eternal concious torment it is worth looking into Christian or Evangelical Universalism.

Good places to start are at tentmaker.org and hopebeyondhell.net .

At hope beyond hell the pdf version of a book by that name is available for free download. There is also an abridged 48 page version. And a print copy available at amazon.


Mike
Being polite is a virtue. Feeling the need to say those opposed to one's view are "in the world" is at least offensive to those opposed if not indicating an underlying sense of "rage" that Christians would believe what has been clearly taught for several millennium.

I would also note that unlike the OP the discussions in the link in the OP do not make or at least do not voice that assumption about those opposed. At least not in the few spots I read going into their case for annihilation.
OP said:
alot of people simply believe in the World(Colossians 2:20-23) rather than The Apostles & Prophets who are of YHWH,
 
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DrBubbaLove

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And since I went to the link the OP gave, I will note they spend a lot of time attempting to explain how "eternal" as it is alleged to apply to punishment in Scripture does not really mean forever and ever. Yet when "eternal occurs in same verse and same language as applied to BOTH "reward" and "punishment" we are left to wonder what distinction the writer gives us to show he understood this distinction attempting to be made. IOW if eternal does not mean forever and ever in one case, then why does it mean those in Heaven remain in that state forever and ever?
 
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he-man

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If [/SIZE][/FONT]the people suffering are annihilated how can it be said they are "away" from anything?

:confused: As smoke vaporized by eternal exclusion and banishment far away and prevented forever in the depths of the grave being shut out to never see the face of God.

9 Such people will pay the penalty and suffer the punishment of everlasting ruin (destruction and perdition) and eternal exclusion and banishment from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, [AMP]

9 They will suffer the just penalty of eternal destruction, far away from the face of the Lord and the glory of his might. [CJB]

9 who shall pay the penalty [of] everlasting destruction from [the] presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his might, [DARBY]

9 Those people will be punished with the destruction; that continues to be forever separated from the presence of the Lord and from his great power. [EXB]

9 Their punishment will be eternal exclusion from the radiance of the face of the Lord, and the glorious majesty of power. [PHILLIPS]

9 They will pay the penalty by being destroyed forever, by being separated from the Lord’s presence and from his glorious power. [NOG]

9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might [NIV]

9 And what’s to become of them? They’ll pay for what they’ve done; their punishment [agony] will be eternal destruction. And what’s worse? banished from the Lord’s presence and glorious power. [VOICE]

So where is your scripture? Can you address the scripture with scripture? [/b]
Such is the case with the ungodly that perish from the face of God and that means before they will see the face of God, they do not exist because they have already been vaporized like smoke and will never be seen again for all eternity.

Psa 18:8 There went up a smoke out of his nostrils, and fire out of his mouth devoured:coals were kindled by it.

Psa 68:2 As smoke is driven away, so drive them away: as wax melteth before the fire, so let the ungodly perish from the face of God.

2Th 1:9 who shall pay the penalty of everlasting destruction from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his might,

Isa 9:18 For wickedness burneth as the fire: it shall devour the briers and thorns, and shall kindle in the thickets of the forest, and they shall mount up like the lifting up of smoke.

Hos 13:3 Therefore they shall be as the morning cloud, and as the early dew that passeth away, as the chaff that is driven with the whirlwind out of the floor, and as the smoke out of the chimney.

Ecc 9:6 Their love and their hate and their envy have already perished, and forever they have no more share in all that is done under the sun.

Psa 146:4 When his breath departs, he returns to the earth; on that very day his plans perish.

2Th 1:9 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the face of God and from the glory of his might,

Mat 7:23 And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'

Luk 13:25 When once the master of the house has risen and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and to knock at the door, saying, 'Lord, open to us,' then he will answer you, 'I do not know where you come from.'

Mat 25:33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left.
 
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DrBubbaLove

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:confused: As smoke vaporized by eternal exclusion and banishment far away and prevented forever in the depths of the grave being shut out to never see the face of God.

9 Such people will pay the penalty and suffer the punishment of everlasting ruin (destruction and perdition) and eternal exclusion and banishment from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, [AMP]
Quoting Scripture is good but to what profit if one is unable to explain how one's view makes any sense with those Scriptures. Repeatedly quoting Scripture while refusing to answer questions is not a defense.

Banishment is a term indicating separation. Please explain how something which does not exist can be "banished". Do we say flying pigs are "banished" which is why we do not see them?
 
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Heman,
You keep posting verses. I would like to know how this verse you post is understood in your view.
2Th 1:9 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the face of God and from the glory of his might,

If
the people suffering are annihilated how can it be said they are "away" from anything?


Same thing with Eternal Torment, if people are tortured forever, how are they Away from God? As God(YHWH) is Everywhere.

It's just a metaphor, God doesn't have face, nor do humans, we're Immaterial. they are away from God, in other words they are away from life, they have no life, they're dead.

And there's no denying annihilation, #1 God wouldn't torture anyone, He loves His enemies, never ever tortured anyone. #2 punishment for sins is death, clearly said by Jesus Christ in John 3:35-36,

" The Father loves the Son and has given all things into His hand. 36 He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not [a]obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”(This proves that term "wrath of God", means death, also evident by the fact that the original word translated into wrath is orge, which is for lack of a better word, justice/ending injustice.)
 
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Christian or Evangelical Universalism.

Universalism is false, there will be people that refuse to repent, as I explained before, allowing them to exist would be the same as eternal torment,

If someone will never repent and YHWH kept them alive then they would suffer, That would be the False doctrine of Eternal Torment,

You know why everyone can't be saved? Because not everyone will repent. an unrepentant person who harms others(as that's what sin is, SavedByChrist94 presents True Christianity: What is Sin? ) and doesn't repent is doomed.

If YHWH keeps someone unrepentant alive after His appearance/2nd Coming, He'll have to separate them from everyone else so they won't harm anyone. then what? that unrepentant person will grow lonely, they hate YHWH, they'll suffer just like the doctrine of Eternal Torment.

So YHWH puts them out of existence, they're not good, they harm and they'll suffer if they stayed alive.

This is not counting the fact that if YHWH appears to the unrepentant person, the only reason they'll Claim repentance is to keep living, Not because they Love others,

See the problems with keeping them alive after YHWH appears? it's just like eternal torment. the only person who caused suffering was the unrepentant person, they choose to be slaves, harm others, suffer, do what they do not want to do(Romans 7).
 
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And how does this theory deal with the immortal human soul and why?

Bodies are "resurrected" not souls. A human is a body and a soul. We know our bodies die, but what of the human soul/spirit?

Bodies do not cease to exist, Death means Nonexistence. bodies do not cease to exist, the person does. and therefore the person needs to be Resurrected/Given life by YHWH to live.

Jesus Christ even said it, John 3:35-36 - "The Father loves the Son and has given all things into His hand. 36 He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not [a]obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”(This proves that term "wrath of God", means death, also evident by the fact that the original word translated into wrath is orge, which is for lack of a better word, justice/ending injustice not violence.)
 
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