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A Pondering of the Peculiar

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46AND2

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Did you consider liberal Christianity, theism without the bible, or deism?

Liberal Christianity, yes. The other two you mentioned...theism without the bible....many of the problems I have with Christianity are common among all or most other religions, which I'll elaborate on more when I get to my logical complaints with the new testament, but for example, the idea that a supreme being would even care enough to create us seems counterintuitive to me...at least a sufficiently powerful/knowing one. It would be more unreasonable than me caring what an ant is thinking...and most theistic religions believe in a sufficiently powerful being, imo...as for deism...this would allow for a less powerful being, say, an advanced alien intelligence. But lacking an interest in me, personally, I don't particularly feel the need to go searching for it. However, I'm open-minded enough to look into supernatural claims, and figure if there is convincing evidence out there, I'll eventually find it. I think that if there is a god, it is most likely to be an impersonal, detached being/s, and/or advanced alien life. Though I remain skeptical of that, as of now.
 
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anyathesword

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Actually, I have told you that at least twice before. I can dig up the posts, if you like, but it's not that important. Either way, it is a stereotypical assumption you make that atheists just don't read the Bible enough. Many of us probably read it more than you do.



If sin can blind me to the point of missing the refutation of an old earth and evolution, then God is extremely unjust for allowing it to be that powerful, and then punishing us for that blindness.

ALL arguments I have seen against deep time and evolution are based on a complete lack of understanding of the evidence of those issues. If I saw a solid argument from somebody who actually understood the evidence, I'd be more likely to consider that I might be blind to the refutation.

Nobody has come close.



Of course, if you FIRST ASSUME that the Bible is inerrant. Rational people must be convinced of inerrancy first.



So easily? What do you know about my struggles with faith? I FOUGHT for a DOZEN YEARS to maintain my faith. I LIKED church. The best friends I've ever had were my Christian friends. My mother is a devout YEC. You think it's EASY to watch my mother believe I'm going to hell?





I've NEVER felt anger toward God. Even when I was begging him to show me the truth. I don't get angry in general. I am extremely even tempered. People who know me are amazed at times at how I can stay so even keeled.

You need to get this stereotype of all atheists just being angry with God out of your head. How can I be angry at something I don't believe exists?

But you did believe He existed when you were a Christian, am I correct?

One thing that people don't realize is how easy another person can lead someone away from The Truth (The Bible and God). The mind is a battlefield and Satan is very good at manipulating our minds and twisting God's words.

Teachers, scientists, pastors, priests are great, but you need to be very careful and COMPARE what they say follows the Bible. Many pastors are leading "Christians" astray, many religions are abound because people are so gullible and are easily persuaded.

Evolution scientists are biased towards the Bible. Wether it is a Young earth or old earth, doesn't matter true. BUT, were they say that everything Evolved from cells and humans Evolved from apelike ancestor (what the heck?) CONTRADICTS the Bible 100 percent.

These scientists are not willing to look at the Bible, they are trying to lead people away from it. They are trying to have all the answers, when in fact the answer is right in front of them since before they were born!

I love science, I want to major in emergency médicine, but since I have a standard of truth, I know when something start to sound sketchy. I know when it goes deeper than trying to observe geology and fossils. It is more than that, and if you guys can't see that, I am really sorry.

Evolution is more than a science. How can you all pass by all the déceptions created by scientists and the lack of fossils to support their position. This is a big world, there are plenty of fossils, but interestingly there are few intermediates and missing links. Yes they try to explain away why there are a few, but the fact is, there never were.

Teachers and scientists of this world are trying to lead you away from the Truth, same with aliens. (LOL, but I'm serious)

Yes maybe I do stereotype and I'm sorry, but humans are humans and alot of the basic stories happen that lead someone away from the Lord. It's happened to me and thousands of others. But we need to go back and fight for our souls!!

Blessings and sorry for the stereotype..
 
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46AND2

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But you did believe He existed when you were a Christian, am I correct?

One thing that people don't realize is how easy another person can lead someone away from The Truth (The Bible and God). The mind is a battlefield and Satan is very good at manipulating our minds and twisting God's words.

Teachers, scientists, pastors, priests are great, but you need to be very careful and COMPARE what they say follows the Bible. Many pastors are leading "Christians" astray, many religions are abound because people are so gullible and are easily persuaded.

Evolution scientists are biased towards the Bible. Wether it is a Young earth or old earth, doesn't matter true. BUT, were they say that everything Evolved from cells and humans Evolved from apelike ancestor (what the heck?) CONTRADICTS the Bible 100 percent.

These scientists are not willing to look at the Bible, they are trying to lead people away from it. They are trying to have all the answers, when in fact the answer is right in front of them since before they were born!

I love science, I want to major in emergency médicine, but since I have a standard of truth, I know when something start to sound sketchy. I know when it goes deeper than trying to observe geology and fossils. It is more than that, and if you guys can't see that, I am really sorry.

Evolution is more than a science. How can you all pass by all the déceptions created by scientists and the lack of fossils to support their position. This is a big world, there are plenty of fossils, but interestingly there are few intermediates and missing links. Yes they try to explain away why there are a few, but the fact is, there never were.

Teachers and scientists of this world are trying to lead you away from the Truth, same with aliens. (LOL, but I'm serious)

Yes maybe I do stereotype and I'm sorry, but humans are humans and alot of the basic stories happen that lead someone away from the Lord. It's happened to me and thousands of others. But we need to go back and fight for our souls!!

Blessings and sorry for the stereotype..

I appreciate the apology, but...wow. lots of stuff I want to respond to here, but I'm only on my phone, so it will have to wait...
 
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Sayre

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Liberal Christianity, yes. The other two you mentioned...theism without the bible....many of the problems I have with Christianity are common among all or most other religions, which I'll elaborate on more when I get to my logical complaints with the new testament, but for example, the idea that a supreme being would even care enough to create us seems counterintuitive to me...at least a sufficiently powerful/knowing one. It would be more unreasonable than me caring what an ant is thinking...and most theistic religions believe in a sufficiently powerful being, imo...as for deism...this would allow for a less powerful being, say, an advanced alien intelligence. But lacking an interest in me, personally, I don't particularly feel the need to go searching for it. However, I'm open-minded enough to look into supernatural claims, and figure if there is convincing evidence out there, I'll eventually find it. I think that if there is a god, it is most likely to be an impersonal, detached being/s, and/or advanced alien life. Though I remain skeptical of that, as of now.

Interesting - thanks for answering. So... was your departure from faith in some way related to the problem of evil / problem of divine hiddenness?

I'll get to your NT question soon :).
 
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Sayre

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Fear of what? Heaven? Nothingness after death freaks me out WAY more than hell. What could I possibly fear that trumps how I feel about nothingness?

I believe in annihilation after death for non believers. So I guess that is terrifying for you as well.
 
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biggles53

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Bump for Anya...

Let me ask you the question that others seem to dodge...

Much of modern medical procedure and medicines have been developed directly through the application of evolutionary theory.

Would you deny a loved one of yours the necessary medical care if it involved these processes...?

Would it be a "no, thank you", even if their life was at stake...?
 
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Sayre

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46AND2

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Interesting - thanks for answering. So... was your departure from faith in some way related to the problem of evil / problem of divine hiddenness?

I'll get to your NT question soon :).

Mmm, not really. It's a factor, I suppose, when it comes to deism...but with theism it has more to do with god's infinite, or near infinite attributes, and the logical ramifications concerning the interaction with the finite.

It came about when contemplating what it would mean to be limitless, and putting myself in gods shoes, as it were.

By way of another example...how can an omnipotent/omniscient being feel love, or any emotion for that matter? Emotions are simply reactions to stimuli. What could stimulate emotion in an all knowing/powerful being?

Definitely has nothing to do with evil, though, despite my comment yesterday. That would only counter the typical attributes assigned to the Christian god by humans. An evil god is no more or less likely to exist than a good one. So evil has no bearing on my atheism; just on how the Christian god is typically defined. But as I said way early in this thread, the bible written by a deceitful god would be indistinguishable from the bible written by a truthful one.
 
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anyathesword

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Rethinking Hell | Exploring Evangelical Conditionalism (Annihilationism)

Hell is not eternal - non believers go there for utter and complete destruction that ends their life, their body, their soul, absolutely everything about them is destroyed.

A bit like... death.

There are many verses about Hell and what happens after we die. This websites beliefs are all correct except the last one:

"We affirm the future, bodily resurrection of both the saved and the unsaved; those who are saved, to the resurrection of eternal life in the presence of God; those who are unsaved, to face final punishment, consisting ultimately in the destruction of body and soul, a permanent end to life and conscious existence."
Our Beliefs


Matthew 10:28
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

2 Thessalonians 1:9
They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power

Matthew 13:50
and throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Acts 2:27
because you will not abandon me to the grave, nor will you let your Holy One see decay.

Mark 9:43
If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out.

Jude 1:7
In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

Proverbs 15:24
The path of life leads upward for the wise to keep him from going down to the grave.

Proverbs 23:14
Punish him with the rod and save his soul from death.

Matthew 13:42
They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 25:41
"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

Revelation 21:8
But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars--their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."

Mark 9:48
‘where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.’


Luke 16:24
And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.’

Luke 16:19-31
“There was a rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. And at his gate was laid a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores, who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man's table. Moreover, even the dogs came and licked his sores. The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried, and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side.


There is no need to rethink hell. As you see in these last 2 verses, that hell is a physical place. You can feel pain, no hope, despair, death, torture. It has eternal fire, worms eat your flesh, fire burns it.

In actuality many people have died and seen hell and came back to tell about it.
23 minutes in Hell is a great book.

Go back to the Bible over and over again to see what it says. You go there and you suffer for eternity or at least till the second coming of Jesus and His judgement again.
 
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Sayre

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There are many verses about Hell and what happens after we die. This websites beliefs are all correct except the last one:

"We affirm the future, bodily resurrection of both the saved and the unsaved; those who are saved, to the resurrection of eternal life in the presence of God; those who are unsaved, to face final punishment, consisting ultimately in the destruction of body and soul, a permanent end to life and conscious existence."
Our Beliefs


Matthew 10:28
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

2 Thessalonians 1:9
They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power

Matthew 13:50
and throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Acts 2:27
because you will not abandon me to the grave, nor will you let your Holy One see decay.

Mark 9:43
If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out.

Jude 1:7
In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

Proverbs 15:24
The path of life leads upward for the wise to keep him from going down to the grave.

Proverbs 23:14
Punish him with the rod and save his soul from death.

Matthew 13:42
They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 25:41
"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

Revelation 21:8
But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars--their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."

Mark 9:48
‘where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.’


Luke 16:24
And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.’

Luke 16:19-31
“There was a rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. And at his gate was laid a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores, who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man's table. Moreover, even the dogs came and licked his sores. The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried, and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side.


There is no need to rethink hell. As you see in these last 2 verses, that hell is a physical place. You can feel pain, no hope, despair, death, torture. It has eternal fire, worms eat your flesh, fire burns it.

In actuality many people have died and seen hell and came back to tell about it.
23 minutes in Hell is a great book.

Go back to the Bible over and over again to see what it says. You go there and you suffer for eternity or at least till the second coming of Jesus and His judgement again.

This is the creation and evolution forum -I'll debate you on this elsewhere.
 
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anyathesword

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Mmm, not really. It's a factor, I suppose, when it comes to deism...but with theism it has more to do with god's infinite, or near infinite attributes, and the logical ramifications concerning the interaction with the finite.

It came about when contemplating what it would mean to be limitless, and putting myself in gods shoes, as it were.

By way of another example...how can an omnipotent/omniscient being feel love, or any emotion for that matter? Emotions are simply reactions to stimuli. What could stimulate emotion in an all knowing/powerful being?

Definitely has nothing to do with evil, though, despite my comment yesterday. That would only counter the typical attributes assigned to the Christian god by humans. An evil god is no more or less likely to exist than a good one. So evil has no bearing on my atheism; just on how the Christian god is typically defined. But as I said way early in this thread, the bible written by a deceitful god would be indistinguishable from the bible written by a truthful one.

How do YOU feel love or joy or jealousy? You are made in the IMAGE of God, that's to say you have some special qualities that God gave you that are different than animals.

What would stimulate emotion in God? His people!!! Wether they turn away or follow Him, he acts accordingly.

I don't understand your logic in the indistinguishable of a truthful or decietful god? Plus use a capital G not a lowercase, because there are plenty gods out there that aren't God.

You can't put yourself into a Creator's shoe, your mind just can't grasp what it's like to be God. You are a created being, your mind is limited.
 
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Mr Strawberry

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How do YOU feel love or joy or jealousy? You are made in the IMAGE of God, that's to say you have some special qualities that God gave you that are different than animals.

So do you not think animals feel emotions? What do you think keeps animals together when they pair up, sometimes for life? What do you think they are feeling? Don't confuse feeling with thinking here. Do animals feel joy? Do they feel anger when they lose out in a competition for a partner - what you might call jealousy? What is it that they are feeling that keeps them with their partner? Might it be a pleasurable feeling? Whatever that feeling is, don't you think it could legitimately be called love? You might find investigating the hormone oxytocin interesting at this point.
 
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anyathesword

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So do you not think animals feel emotions? What do you think keeps animals together when they pair up, sometimes for life? What do you think they are feeling? Don't confuse feeling with thinking here. Do animals feel joy? Do they feel anger when they lose out in a competition for a partner - what you might call jealousy? What is it that they are feeling that keeps them with their partner? Might it be a pleasurable feeling? Whatever that feeling is, don't you think it could legitimately be called love? You might find investigating the hormone oxytocin interesting at this point.

Of course they have emotions too!
 
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FredHoyle

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How do YOU feel love or joy or jealousy? You are made in the IMAGE of God, that's to say you have some special qualities that God gave you that are different than animals.

Of course they have emotions too!
God given emotions I suppose even though they're not made in the IMAGE of your God.
You're not thinking straight are you? your brain must be ever so slightly addled.
Perhaps it's time to take stock and see just what it is you believe.
 
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PsychoSarah

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How do YOU feel love or joy or jealousy? You are made in the IMAGE of God, that's to say you have some special qualities that God gave you that are different than animals.

What would stimulate emotion in God? His people!!! Wether they turn away or follow Him, he acts accordingly.

I don't understand your logic in the indistinguishable of a truthful or decietful god? Plus use a capital G not a lowercase, because there are plenty gods out there that aren't God.

You can't put yourself into a Creator's shoe, your mind just can't grasp what it's like to be God. You are a created being, your mind is limited.

The word god isn't a name though.
 
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AV1611VET

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The word god isn't a name though.
Exodus 6:3 And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them.
 
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