~~~evil~~~:<

[x141]

Yeshua was uninterested in wading into cosmological or theological controversies. His mission was to point the way to God and become a bridge to him. What good would it have done his ministry to lecture folks on the secrets of the universe and the Cosmos? His audiences understood what they needed to know at that time: God and Heaven are good; the Devil and Hell are bad....

Are you aware that the first half of Genesis was pieced together from pagan creation myths and flood myths? Are you one of those folks who believes the Universe is only seven thousand years old? Do you dismiss the discoveries and suppositions of science?...

No to the two last questions and as for the first, my belief's are more absolute as they pertain to what is without us (which is inclusive of all things) and what is within us ... I must assume by your answer though that you believe he was not bound by the narrative ... even though he came in the confines of the narrative of Moses that the children of Israel had become bound by.

 

[Phantasman]

More demiurge garbage from the OT to confuse people into thinking the Father is not perfect and pure.

 

[Senecharnix]

No to the two last questions and as for the first, my belief's are more absolute as they pertain to what is without us (which is inclusive of all things) and what is within us ... I must assume by your answer though that you believe he was not bound by the narrative ... even though he came in the confines of the narrative of Moses that the children of Israel had become bound by.

Maybe I am too weary from working all night to properly understand what you are asserting. But the Devil is not bound by any story. He is as real as is God. On various occasions, he has confronted me whereas some of his demons confronted me on one occasion. I have seen that monster in all his grotesque glory and felt his power. Likewise, I have witnessed what his power can do and have been assailed by it more than a few times. But God protects me from the full force of what he can do....

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Noah is in type God, but his grandson didn't uncover his nakedness ... does God punish the son for the action of the father (though in the natural it can sometimes appear this way), is this just (even a man who is likened to a beast knows this is not just) ... so it is with God, whom without nothing would be.

In a patriarchal extended family group grandsons are often considered to be sons as well. Here's the full scene from Gen 9: 20-25


"And Noah began to be an husbandman, and he planted a vineyard:

And he drank of the wine, and was drunken; and he was uncovered within his tent.

And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without.

And Shem and Japheth took a garment, and laid it upon both their shoulders, and went backward, and covered the nakedness of their father; and their faces were backward, and they saw not their father's nakedness.

And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son (grandson)had done unto him.

And he said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren."


Perhaps Noah was aware of Canaan's disposition or proclivity for 'mischief'.

 

[x141]

.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Your view makes God sound petty, vindictive, and out of touch as well as not very wise or principled. Oh, I am mad so I will cause myself and all of Creation gargantuan trouble by creating Evil. How could I have possibly missed noticing that Lucifer fellow was brewing problems?...As I said, Evil has been around as long as God has. He had nothing to do with its creation or presence in the grand scheme of things. Otherwise, He would be far less wonderful and admirable than He is since He would be guilty of the greatest evil of all--creating its nastiness....

You should reread the OP. Better yet study what happened to Israel at the hand of those nations that God sent against them as 'the rod of his anger'. Not pretty.

 

[Senecharnix]

You should reread the OP.

I do not agree with the OP assertions...It is ridiculously illogical, even absurd, to claim God uses evil for anything. It makes Him sound as silly as some pagan god and tarnishes His goodness to the core. It is impossible to use evil and not be tainted by it regardless of intentions....

 

[Senecharnix]

You should reread the OP. Better yet study what happened to Israel at the hand of those nations that God sent against them as 'the rod of his anger'. Not pretty.

I would not describe Him doing so as using evil. He exercised righteous judgment. Israel reaped what she had sown. It is the same principle in play when a prisoner suffers through the process of justice and is executed. He or she is not the victim of evil--of murder--unless, of course, the justice system is corrupt. But there is no corruption in God. Whatever He does is righteous...Evil is malicious and malevolent. It is hatched and employed for unrighteous intentions or reasons to achieve unrighteous objectives....

 

[OldWiseGuy]

I do not agree with the OP assertions...It is ridiculously illogical, even absurd, to claim God uses evil for anything. It makes Him sound as silly as some pagan god and tarnishes His goodness to the core. It is impossible to use evil and not be tainted by it regardless of intentions....

His assertions are supported by scripture. The universe has been in a state of destruction and war since the rebellion. The battleground is now on earth and in the human theatre. God is working out his plan of redemption using evil and calamity as tools and weapons. What isn't generally understood is the magnitude of the destruction wrought in the rebellion of Lucifer. He (or she/it) brought down a universal spirit kingdom of unimaginable glory. What we see is only the final part of God's response to this destructive treachery.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

I would not describe Him doing so as using evil. He exercised righteous judgment. Israel reaped what she had sown. It is the same principle when a prisoner suffers through the process of justice and is executed. He or she is not the victim of evil--of murder--unless, of course, the justice system is corrupt. but there is no corruption in God. Whatever He does is righteous...Evil is malicious and malevolent. It is hatched and employed for unrighteous intentions or reasons to achieve unrighteous objectives....

The fact is that God allows evil to happen to the innocent as well as the guilty, within the greater scope of his purpose.

 

[Evergreen48]

Maybe I am too weary from working all night to properly understand what you are asserting. But the Devil is not bound by any story. He is as real as is God. On various occasions, he has confronted me whereas some of his demons confronted me on one occasion. I have seen that monster in all his grotesque glory and felt his power. Likewise, I have witnessed what his power can do and have been assailed by it more than a few times. But God protects me from the full force of what he can do....

It sounds like there might be two gods under consideration here; with one being just a little more powerful than the other.

Isa. 43:10. "Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me."

 

[Senecharnix]

His assertions are supported by scripture. The universe has been in a state of destruction and war since the rebellion. The battleground is now on earth and in the human theatre. God is working out his plan of redemption using evil and calamity as tools and weapons. What isn't generally understood is the magnitude of the destruction wrought in the rebellion of Lucifer. He (or she/it) brought down a universal spirit kingdom of unimaginable glory. What we see is only the final part of God's response to this destructive treachery.

He could only use evil if He intended to achieve evil purposes. That is what evil is--evil intentions or reasons to achieve evil purposes....

 

[Senecharnix]

The fact is that God allows evil to happen to the innocent as well as the guilty, within the greater scope of his purpose.

If you are correct, God would be guilty of being evil. I, however, suggest He might not exercise as much control over things as you and countless others suppose. It is entirely possible that cosmic laws do not allow Him to do so...That is beyond the fact that such assertions make Him sound as if He were as scheming, arbitrary, and evil as is the Devil. Why bother placing one's faith in a god that uses people in such a coldly calculating manner?

 

[Senecharnix]

It sounds like there might be two gods under consideration here; with one being just a little more powerful than the other.

Isa. 43:10. "Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me."

Perhaps, Isaiah had an agenda...He was endeavoring to steer the children of Israel away from committing spiritual adultery with other gods and goddesses...But yes, there are at least two gods--one who is righteous and wise and one who is insane and evil....

People need to understand that nothing in the Bible is a video recording of words. Interpretting it as such leads to huge problems. Context is extremely important....

 

[Evergreen48]

Perhaps, Isaiah had an agenda...He was endeavoring to steer the children of Israel away from committing spiritual adultery with other gods and goddesses...
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People need to understand that nothing in the Bible is a video recording of words. Interpretting it as such leads to huge problems. Context is extremely important....

Yes, I agree with that. But because there was a specific context involved here does not invalidate the fact that what God said about there being no other God formed before him or after him, being true at all times, no matter what the context. IOW the statement is just as true in any other context as it is here in this one.

But yes, there are at least two gods--one who is righteous and wise and one who is insane and evil....

Since there has been no God formed before or after the Almighty God, where did this other God come from?

 

[DrBubbaLove]

There is a world of difference between saying ALL things (including evil) happen for His Glory (and of course He allows that) and saying the Supreme Good creates evil. Dark and darkness is a opposed to Light, but it is not a force - just the relative absence of Light.

Evil is the absence of good, so it makes no sense in that understanding to see God as an activte agent (cause) of evil if He is believed to be the Supreme Good.

 

[he-man]

The fact is that God allows evil to happen to the innocent as well as the guilty, within the greater scope of his purpose.

No, God controls all good and all evil, who are you calling innocent? All have fallen short... and how do you define who the innocent are?
God controls the wind, the sea, the air, the rain, the drought ..etc.

Philippians 2:15 (ESV)
15 that you may be blameless and innocent, children of God without blemish in the midst of a crooked and twisted generation, among whom you shine as lights in the world,

Psalm 11:6 (KJV)
6 Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup.

Matthew 5:45 (KJV)
45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for He maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

2 Thessalonians 3:10 (KJV)
10 For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

No, God controls all good and all evil, who are you calling innocent? All have fallen short... and how do you define who the innocent are?

The babies that were eaten by their mothers and fathers during the siege of Jerusalem, as prophecied, and as recorded by Josephus. These were innocent.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

He could only use evil if He intended to achieve evil purposes. That is what evil is--evil intentions or reasons to achieve evil purposes....

God uses evil for short term bad, long term good. For example he allowed Israel to be conquered, butchered, and enslaved. But the entire nation, the whole house of Israel, will be resurrected during Christ's millennial rule. They will recall their deaths during a horrible age, and rejoice in their new lives in a golden age. Pretty good deal.

 

[Senecharnix]

Yes, I agree with that. But because there was a specific context involved here does not invalidate the fact that what God said about there being no other God formed before him or after him, being true at all times, no matter what the context. IOW the statement is just as true in any other context as it is here in this one.



Since there has been no God formed before or after the Almighty God, where did this other God come from?

You have no idea whether God what the author of Chapter 43 Isaiah claims He said. Isaiah did not write any of the book of Isaiah past Chapter 39. The remainder of the book was written long after Isaiah had died by at least two different authors and possibly several authors. As I said, the Bible is not a video recording in words. Even so, the fact of the matter is that the Devil fits the criteria for being a god. Paul refers to him as the god of the world. This God being the only god stuff is wishful thinking rather than fact. Of course, He is the only God worthy of honoring....

As I said before, [I strongly suspect that] the Devil has been around as long as God has. Evil definitely has been around just as long. God had nothing to do with its creation and He most certainly does not use Evil. Such is natural and innate. God controls Evil from the outside, like a police force endeavoring to control crime. No matter how effective such might be, however, crime remains a problem and always will until human nature drastically improves....