Gender Equality. Who Should Be Submissive?

[timur123456789]

Who Should Be Submissive?​

Gender Equality

In both the creation story and the teachings of Jesus we see that human evil and “hardness of heart” has led to men mistreating their wives. Masculine dominance is not God’s ideal, but a sad reality.

Now consider Paul’s teaching: “Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord” (Ephesians 5:22). A husband with a tendency to look down on women might use this passage as an excuse for continuing to put himself first. But such a person would be completely missing the point of the passage. Paul meant that everyone should be submissive, not just wives. The verse just before says, “Submit yourselves one to another in the fear of God” (Ephesians 5:21), that is, wives submit to husbands, and husbands submit to wives. The Christian way to greatness is through humility and submission, not through pride, rebellion and domination.

Peter, speaking on the same subject, said, Submit yourselves to every human ordinance for the Lord’s sake” (1 Peter 2:13). This does not mean that every human ordinance is good. It simply means that we gain more through humility than through rebellion. He goes on to say, “Servants, be submissive to your masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the harsh…for what credit is it if when you are beaten for your faults, you take it patiently? But when you do good and suffer for it, if you take it patiently, this is commendable before God” (1 Peter 2:18-20).

Peter then asks us to follow the example of Christ, who, “when He was reviled, did not revile in return; when He suffered, threatened not” (1 Peter 2:23). “Likewise,” Peter says, “you wives be submissive to your own husbands” (1 Peter 3:1). The implication is clear: in submitting to their husbands, wives are like Christ when He submitted to His enemies. This does not make it right for the husband to dominate any more than it was right to crucify the Lord.

Never anywhere does the Bible say, “Husbands, rule over your wives!” The message to everyone is to be humble. “All of you be submissive to one another, and be clothed with humility: for God resists the proud, and gives grace to the humble” (1 Peter 5:5). “Whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant” (Matthew 20:27).

 

[2ndRateMind]

...Who Should Be Submissive?...​

Gender Equality

Yes, I read this post inclined to fault it. Being, by nature, a goat rather than a sheep, I was inclined to the view that submission is not the ideal stance for either gender. 'Equality' surely implies that no one is dominant, just, well, all equal. Nevertheless, I admire humility in the powerful, just as I admire the courage of the little people to speak truth to the great. So, I think, this thoughtful post is to be commended. Equality is possible if we all submit ourselves to the legitimate needs of each other; it is impossible if we all put our own needs before anyone else's.

Best wishes, 2RM.

 

[seeingeyes]

Who Should Be Submissive?​

You should!

Great post.

 

[SwordFall]

The problem with 'gender equality' is that it's not really equal. Women really win out on it over men, that's one of many truths that political correctness blinds people to.

 

[PaladinValer]

Asides from the grumblings of some, the OP is correct. Both men and women are made in the Image of God and each is an adoptive son of God. "Sonship" language is not what both male-dominant arguers and archfeminists think it means: it has to do with inheritance and standing in the social, political, legal, and family order. That God considers women sons is not to make them male but raises them to be equal to men, as back then, males inherited.

 

[greentwiga]

What traditionalists ignore is the instructions to men. Women are told to be submissive. Men are told to die for their wives, a much harder job. We men do our best to remember the instructions to women, and an even better job of forgetting the instruction to men.

 

[NorrinRadd]

The problem with 'gender equality' is that it's not really equal. Women really win out on it over men,

How so?

that's one of many truths that political correctness blinds people to.

What does political correctness have to do with it?

 

[SwordFall]

How so?

Because gender equality only pertains to that which benefits women. Other equalities aren't included.

This would pertain to a myriad of things, including society, the household, the workplace, and the law.

There is a gigantic conflict of interest that is happening right under men's noses, and men are apparently under some sort of spell being that every time I have raised this issue, the first reply I get is almost always an oblivious inquiry; more times then not resembling a stance of defense.

What does political correctness have to do with it?

It has everything to do with it. Society has become feminist in it's philosophy, unable to address issue on gender, just like how society labors under racial paranoia, unable to tell the truth even though it would solve a lot.

Political correctness dissuades the truth for what is convenient, and not to people as a whole, but to a particular group or idea. And people run along with it, wondering why society is the way it is.

 

[NorrinRadd]

Because gender equality only pertains to that which benefits women. Other equalities aren't included.

This would pertain to a myriad of things, including society, the household, the workplace, and the law.

There is a gigantic conflict of interest that is happening right under men's noses, and men are apparently under some sort of spell being that every time I have raised this issue, the first reply I get is almost always an oblivious inquiry; more times then not resembling a stance of defense.

It "only pertains to that which benefits women" when it is not properly understood. When better understood, it also liberates men from various stereotypes.

<Political Correctness> has everything to do with it. Society has become feminist in it's philosophy, unable to address issue on gender, just like how society labors under racial paranoia, unable to tell the truth even though it would solve a lot.

Political correctness dissuades the truth for what is convenient, and not to people as a whole, but to a particular group or idea. And people run along with it, wondering why society is the way it is.

So in your view, advocating for gender equality necessarily results from a desire to conform to secular culture, not from one's efforts at understanding and applying Scripture?

 

[SwordFall]

It "only pertains to that which benefits women" when it is not properly understood. When better understood, it also liberates men from various stereotypes.

That's just a cop out to remain indifferent on the matter. Men aren't allowed to speak on the issues of women, unless they are falsely called 'misogynists', and the bad part is that many men themselves sort of just perpetuate that.

It's because society has labored under feminist philosophy. It already has a foothold, let me just spin off some things:

women are treated better, they get off easier in court, win parental rights, get the house in divorce, have preeminence over the unborn, are more applicable for social aid, make up a fraction of the homeless, often usurp heads of households, enact the majority of divorces, can beat the crap out of you and if you lay a finger on them you're a wife beater, etc. etc.

I think these are bigger issues over alleged stereotypes of men. .

So in your view, advocating for gender equality necessarily results from a desire to conform to secular culture, not from one's efforts at understanding and applying Scripture?

Scripture doesn't teach gender equality, scripture teaches gender harmony. And there is a very fundamental difference there.

 

[NorrinRadd]

That's just a cop out to remain indifferent on the matter. Men aren't allowed to speak on the issues of women, unless they are falsely called 'misogynists', and the bad part is that many men themselves sort of just perpetuate that.

Well, I'm obviously not indifferent on the matter, or I would not have engaged in the discussion. I am admittedly a bit of a nerd and "beta male," and despise the notion that the "proper" male role model is the macho "John Wayne" sort, or the kind that treats perceived "unmanliness" the way Vito treated Johnny Fontaine.

It's because society has labored under feminist philosophy. It already has a foothold, let me just spin off some things:

women are treated better, they get off easier in court, win parental rights, get the house in divorce, have preeminence over the unborn, are more applicable for social aid, make up a fraction of the homeless, often usurp heads of households, enact the majority of divorces, can beat the crap out of you and if you lay a finger on them you're a wife beater, etc. etc.

I think these are bigger issues over alleged stereotypes of men. .

You cited several valid concerns there. But they don't necessarily outweigh the "manliness" issues, and they certainly don't negate them.

On the points I highlighted --

-- There is nothing inherently wrong with the fact that women "enact" (which I assume means "initiate") the majority of divorces. There is only a problem if women are equally likely to engage in divorce-worthy transgressions.

-- I think we probably disagree on the "head of household" concept.

Scripture doesn't teach gender equality, scripture teaches gender harmony. And there is a very fundamental difference there.

Of course I'm quite familiar with what has (disingenuously) come to be known as the "complementarian" view, and used to believe it and advocate for it. But I have become convinced that the Biblical norm -- especially pre-Fall, and also for us in Christ -- is true equality.

 

[SwordFall]

Well, I'm obviously not indifferent on the matter, or I would not have engaged in the discussion. I am admittedly a bit of a nerd and "beta male," and despise the notion that the "proper" male role model is the macho "John Wayne" sort, or the kind that treats perceived "unmanliness" the way Vito treated Johnny Fontaine.

That doesn't really have anything to do with it. All that is just society's artificiality. What dictates a man is accountability.

And men today are apparently having a hard time accounting for women, which is why these gender issues exist today, and yet are ignored.

I believe this is what Paul had in mind in all his writings about the relationships of men and women. Paul particularly had an extremely conservative view on women, one of the few things known about him outside of his letters.

 

[NorrinRadd]

That doesn't really have anything to do with it. All that is just society's artificiality. What dictates a man is accountability.

Why is that what dictates a man, as opposed to a woman?

And men today are apparently having a hard time accounting for women, which is why these gender issues exist today, and yet are ignored.

In what sense are men supposed to "account for women"?

I believe this is what Paul had in mind in all his writings about the relationships of men and women. Paul particularly had an extremely conservative view on women, one of the few things known about him outside of his letters.

I used to find Paul pretty conservative, and more than a little inconsistent. But for at least 10 years, and increasingly so as time goes on, I've recognized that Paul, Luke, Jesus, Moses (notably in Gen. 1-2), and others were "liberal" in terms of gender hierarchy and responsibilities.

 

[mandyangel]

NO gender equality. Women are to be submissive for God is the head of man and man is the head of woman.

 

[SwordFall]

In what sense are men supposed to "account for women"?

In the sense that in not having done so, men's head are at women's heels. Men have praised women and put them in a place above men, treating them something commensurate to sacredness.
In return, all these issues have arisen. Just like the goddesses men have dressed them to be, they smite with those goddess hands.

Such is why if you get a divorce, say goodbye to your money, house, and kids

 

[NorrinRadd]

NO gender equality. Women are to be submissive for God is the head of man and man is the head of woman.

In that case, since I am your head, I command you to submit to my beliefs and embrace our equality.

 

[NorrinRadd]

In the sense that in not having done so, men's head are at women's heels. Men have praised women and put them in a place above men, treating them something commensurate to sacredness.
In return, all these issues have arisen. Just like the goddesses men have dressed them to be, they smite with those goddess hands.

Such is why if you get a divorce, say goodbye to your money, house, and kids

With all due respect... I'm starting to wonder how much of your belief system is a result of some unfortunate personal experiences.

 

[SwordFall]

With all due respect... I'm starting to wonder how much of your belief system is a result of some unfortunate personal experiences.

Why should it be something that's happened to me, when such experiences happen a thousand times over to many men, all the time?

With all due respect, this would be your third attempt to basically dodge of what I've stated.
And I mean, that's part of the problem right there. People just don't want to face the issue, for some reason or another.

 

[NorrinRadd]

Why should it be something that's happened to me, when such experiences happen a thousand times over to many men, all the time?

With all due respect, this would be your third attempt to basically dodge of what I've stated.
And I mean, that's part of the problem right there. People just don't want to face the issue, for some reason or another.

I guess we have different priorities and starting points. I'm more concerned about what Scripture says on the matter. For me, all the talk about various purported social ills are secondary, and I'm predisposed to see them as distractions, and to view insistence on such focus as driven by personal experiences.

Sorry if I offended you. If your interest is the purported social ills and not Scripture, then we really don't have much to discuss.

 

[seeingeyes]

Such is why if you get a divorce, say goodbye to your money, house, and kids

Maybe you should have been a better husband.

Oh wait! That's what they used to tell the wife... Sorry for the equality.