Free Grace Theology - The theology that allows devil worshippers into heaven

[FreeGrace2]

Believe, not "believed".

That's the issue that you dodged.

Apparently you may be unaware that "believe" is also used in the aorist tense; by Jesus in Luke 8:12 where He said "lest they believe and be saved", and by Paul when he answered the jailer's question of what he MUST DO to be saved. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

Your point is not taken.

And I dodged nothing.

 

[FreeGrace2]

It is written that there is no torment or weeping in heaven:

"And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away." Rev 21:4

Therefore it is reasonable to conclude ... that those branches who are disobedient are cast out into the fire, or the unprofitable servants cast out into the outer darkness and end up weeping and gnashing ... must not be in heaven.

No, that's not reasonable at all. Because they Bible guarantees salvation to all who have believed.

Jn 10:28,29
28 "and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29“ My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. 30“I and the Father are one.”

Rom 8:38,39
28 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Do you know what "nor things present, nor things to come" includes?

These 2 passages guarantee eternal life for all who believe, even in the aorist tense.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Progressive sanctification is evidence that one is saved, not a means to obtaining salvation.

Very good.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Aaah, butski, without holiness no one will see the Lord.
Next, OSASers will say they got lots of holiness when everything was imputed to them @ salvation.
.

I suppose eo thinks the verse he quoted means that unless one is holy they will not see the Lord. Apparently he doesn't see the works salvation in that. In order to be holy, one must exert faithful effort. That is works. Plain and simple.

But, the verse is speaking in terms of those around us. If we don't exhibit holiness, no one else will see the Lord. Now I know that many will jump on this and charge that I am adding words to Scripture. But that is the principle being taught.

If we as believers don't have a testimony, how are others going to see our faith? Pretty much what James was emphasizing.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Aaaaah, Thayer ... In the Foreward to his lexicon, it says he was NOT a Christian.

IMO, no one who is not Christian can understand much in the NT.
.

Sure. Go ahead and throw away your lexicon when studying the meaning of Greek words. Why do you think there is some magical different meaning to words that the writers of Scripture used to communicate God's thoughts to man?

In fact, the writers used words that everyone would understand. Why do you think the Bible was written in some "spiritual code" that apparently only the elect can decipher?

2 Cor 1:13 -
For we write nothing else to you than what you read and understand, and I hope you will understand until the end

 

[FreeGrace2]

Again, here is what it says:

Mark 1:14 [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]Now after John was arrested, Jesus came into Galilee, proclaiming the gospel of God, and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.”

So here is where we land.

You: "Believe in the Gospel, and you should repent but it isn't necessary for entrance into the Kingdom of God."

Me: “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.”

Yes, Jesus gave 2 commands there. Where is the mention of being saved by obeying both commands?

Belief and repentance are coupled, not only in this passage, but as a unit. Belief requires a turning from sin, a denouncing of sin, and confession of sin in order to be true belief

There is no evidence for that in Scripture.

otherwise, what are you believing in a salvation from?

From??? From the lake of fire of course. And believing really is about believing FOR, which is eternal life.

1 Tim 1:16
Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.

If you don't see your sin as God sees it at least in some way, then why on earth are you clinging to Christ?

For eternal life, of course. And because I realize that I cannot save myself, because of my sin.

What are you needing of from Him and why are you trusting in His death, burial and resurrection?

For eternal life, which He promises to those who believe in Him. What are you believing in Him for? What else is there?

Is it not deliverance from the vile sin that lives in your heart and is so utterly offensive to God that you deserve death?

Of course not. My sin is the reason I can't save myself. Christ died for my sin, and gives the free gift of eternal life to all who believe in Him for it.

If there is no turning, no change of heart, no REPENTANCE, then there was no belief.

Your opinion is noted, and not found in Scripture. Fortunately.

By the way, when one entrusts their soul to Christ for saving, I'd say that is a pretty obvious "turning", don'tcha think?

They go hand in hand and are inseparable.

Opinion noted.

 

[extraordinary]

The OP insinuates that unless one continues to believe they lose salvation.

Gee, why would he insinuate that?

Col 1:22-23 • He has reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy,
and blameless, and above reproach in His sight — if indeed you continue in the faith,
grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel

1 Cor 15:1-2 • Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you,
which also you received and in which you stand, by which also you are saved,
if you hold fast that word which I preached to you — unless you believed in vain.

Gal 1:1-4 • O foolish Galatians! … Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by
the hearing of faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made
perfect by the flesh? Have you suffered so many things in vain — if indeed it was in vain?

Heb 2:1-4 • Therefore we must give the more earnest heed to the things we have heard,
lest we drift away. For if the word spoken through angels proved steadfast,
and every transgression and disobedience received a just reward,
how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation …?

Heb 10:36-39 • For you have need of endurance, so that after you have done the will of God,
you may receive the promise: “For yet a little while, and He who is coming will come
and will not tarry. Now the just shall live by faith; but if anyone draws back,
My soul has no pleasure in him.” But we are not of those who draw back to perdition,
but of those who believe to the saving of the soul. … Paul's usual optimistic (unrealistic) edification!

1 Tim 4:16 • Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine. Continue in them,
for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you.

Jude 1:20-21 • But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith,
praying in the Holy Spirit, keep yourselves in the love of God,
looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

Phil 2:12-16 • … work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;
for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.
… that you may (not will) become blameless and harmless, children of God without fault
… holding fast the word of life, so that I may (not will) rejoice in the day of Christ
that I have not run in vain or labored in vain.

1 Pet 1:5-9 • … the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that
perishes, though it is tested by fire, may (not will) be found to praise, honor, and glory at
the revelation of Jesus Christ … receiving the end of your faith — the salvation of your souls.

Rev 2:10 • Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison,
that you may (will) be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days.
Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life. (see James 1:12)

Because of the above verses …

### Christians see the following passages as having a double-meaning:
Matt 10:22 • But he who endures to the end (of his life) will be saved.
Parallel verses are Mark 13:13 and Matt 24:13.

### We see that eternal life is actually granted (or denied) some time after one dies!
.

 

[FreeGrace2]

BDAG's (3rd ed) gloss on pisteuo (the word commonly translated "believe"):

"to entrust oneself to an entity in complete confidence, believe (in), trust, w. implication of total commitment to the one who is trusted"

Here's a brief summary of the various Arndt & Gingrich lexicons over the years"

The scholarly standard for Greek lexicons has always been the work of Arndt and Gingrich, 2 German scholars. Their work was originally published in 1910. Walter Bauer published several editions of their work, putting his name in the byline, Bauer, Arndt and Gingrich (BAG).

The first English edition was published in 1957, based on the 4th German edition. BAG

The second English edition was published in 1979, based on the 5th German edition and the first English edition. In this edition, Frederick Danker was involved. BAGD This edition has been the standard for pastors, teachers, and scholars, world-wide.

Danker revised and edited the 3rd English edition in 2000, based on the previous edition and the 6th German edition. BDAG. There have been several significant changes to this edition.

The Greek word for “to believe” is pisteuo. In the BAGD edition is the following under pisteuo: “to entrust oneself in complete confidence”

The 2000 BDAG added to that phrase the following: “with implication of total commitment to the one who is trusted”.

Further, in previous editions, the phrase “those who became Christians” in a number of passages was changed to “those who made their commitment” in the BDAG.

It is clear that Frederick Danker has a theological agenda in mind with these changes. Never before in any edition was “believe” linked with “commitment”, until 2000. Now, those pastors who have been saying that have a reference to back them up. Never mind that nearly a century of work never linked the two words before. This should cause alarm for all serious students of the Word of God, since the meaning of the very important word has been changed to fit the specific theology of Lordship salvation.

 

[FreeGrace2]

In these statements in your OP, you provided not one piece of external evidence to your own assertions to demonstrate that there are people in theological land who are of this Free Grace persuasion.

Why do you assert, but without evidence?

Oz

It's all he's got, Oz. I already challenged him on this, but no response.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Red herring.

Of course. When there are assertions without any evidence. The red herring was the OP. Nothing more than an attempt to demonize a theology you disagree with. Unfortunately for you, FG theology IS supported by Scripture. Unlike Calvinism, for example.

 

[FreeGrace2]

If we use John 3:16 as an example. It uses the present tense participle of pisteuw BUT it is followed by the Greek preposition, eis (into). According to Arndt & Gingrich's Greek lexicon pisteuw means

So trust in Christ is the meaning of pisteuw, but the present tense is critical for understanding because the meaning of the Greek present tense in verbals is continuing action of belief/trust. It is not a once-off (which would have been aorist tense) belief/trust, but it is continuing belief. That's why I find that perseverance of the saints is a more accurate description of this teaching than OSAS.

Except what Jesus and Paul said, using the aorist tense for "believe".

Luke 8:12 "lest you believe and be saved"
Acts 16:31 "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved".

 

[FreeGrace2]

Grace, oh Grace, where art thou?

No, I'm not calling my dog.

WHY did you receive God's free gift of grace-faith (Eph 2:8-9)?
'Twas the only way to receive eternal life, right?
(The beginning of the total process of being saved, I mean.)

So, what would it mean for you ... if you received God's grace in vain?

2 Corinthians 6:1 "We then, as workers together with Him
also plead with you not to receive the grace of God in vain."

IMO, it would mean that somehow you were disqualified from benefiting from His grace!
IMO, it would mean your salvation process had been cancelled.
.

It would mean that whatever you were believing wasn't saving faith. To believe "in vain" means to believe "without reason". It means either the object isn't what saving faith requires (the Lord Jesus Christ) or the purpose is phony (I want a new car, bigger house, promotion, etc).

The object of saving faith is Jesus Christ. The purpose of our faith in Him is FOR eternal life.

If either of these 2 categories are different from what is specified, one does not have saving faith, and is not saved.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Gee, why would he insinuate that?

For no good reason.

Col 1:22-23 • He has reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy,
and blameless, and above reproach in His sight — if indeed you continue in the faith,
grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel

Where is loss of salvation mentioned here?

1 Cor 15:1-2 • Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you,
which also you received and in which you stand, by which also you are saved,
if you hold fast that word which I preached to you — unless you believed in vain.

in vain means without reason. Has to do with either not having the correct object (Jesus Christ) or the wrong purpose (anything other than eternal life).

Gal 1:1-4 • O foolish Galatians! … Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by
the hearing of faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made
perfect by the flesh? Have you suffered so many things in vain — if indeed it was in vain?

I don't see anything about loss of salvation here.

Heb 2:1-4 • Therefore we must give the more earnest heed to the things we have heard,
lest we drift away. For if the word spoken through angels proved steadfast,
and every transgression and disobedience received a just reward,
how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation …?

Escape what…exactly? Escape heaven??? That makes no sense. It refers to the fact that believers who don't obey will not escape God's discipline.

Heb 10:36-39 • For you have need of endurance, so that after you have done the will of God,
you may receive the promise: “For yet a little while, and He who is coming will come
and will not tarry. Now the just shall live by faith; but if anyone draws back,
My soul has no pleasure in him.” But we are not of those who draw back to perdition,
but of those who believe to the saving of the soul.

… Paul's usual optimistic (unrealistic) edification!

What obscure translation are you using here.

Here's the NASB:
36For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised.
37 For yet in a very little while,
He who is coming will come, and will not delay.
38 But My righteous one shall live by faith;
And if he shrinks back, My soul has no pleasure in him.
39But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.

Note in v.38a: "but My righteous one shall live by faith". That refers to believers. Then note v.38b: "IF he (My righteous one) strinks back, My soul has no pleasure in him (My righteous one).

1 Tim 4:16 • Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine. Continue in them,
for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you.

Here is an obvious example of when "save" has a temporal meaning, not an eternal one. If this verse refers to eternal salvation, then we are saved by our works.

Jude 1:20-21 • But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith,
praying in the Holy Spirit, keep yourselves in the love of God,
looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

Where is loss of salvation here?

Phil 2:12-16 • … work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;
for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.
… that you may (not will) become blameless and harmless, children of God without fault
… holding fast the word of life, so that I may (not will) rejoice in the day of Christ
that I have not run in vain or labored in vain.

Here, the word "salvation" refers to one's sanctification, or being saved from one's own sins.

1 Pet 1:5-9 • … the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that
perishes, though it is tested by fire, may (not will) be found to praise, honor, and glory at
the revelation of Jesus Christ … receiving the end of your faith — the salvation of your souls.

Actually, instead of "genuineness" in regards to faith, the Greek word is "approved". iow, obedience leads to a faith that is approved by God. And you really slaughtered v.9, which really says:
"obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls."

Did you notice that Peter did NOT say "obtaining as the outcome of your perseverance the salvation of your souls".

Rev 2:10 • Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison,
that you may (will) be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days.
Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life. (see James 1:12)

This is a reference to eternal rewards for faithfulness. Unfaithful believers will not receive eternal rewards.

Because of the above verses …

### Christians see the following passages as having a double-meaning:
Matt 10:22 • But he who endures to the end (of his life) will be saved.
Parallel verses are Mark 13:13 and Matt 24:13.

### We see that eternal life is actually granted (or denied) some time after one dies!
.

You are free to have your own opinion, but it doens't line up with Scripture.

Eternal life is granted WHEN one believes. Jesus SAID so. Jn 5:24

 

[ananda]

I think you're stretching things a bit.

I don't think so.
As I've posted, Lidell's shows "compliance" as one meaning.

 

[ananda]

No, that's not reasonable at all. Because they Bible guarantees salvation to all who have believed.

Jn 10:28,29
28 "and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29“ My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. 30“I and the Father are one.”

Rom 8:38,39
28 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Do you know what "nor things present, nor things to come" includes?

These 2 passages guarantee eternal life for all who believe, even in the aorist tense.

Jn 10:28,29 only promises that nobody else can snatch His people out of YHVH's or Messiah's Hands... the reason being, there is no power greater than Them. This verse says nothing about YHVH or Messiah releasing whom He desires to release or eject out of Their Hands. This verse does not guarantee eternal life for all who only "believes".

I cannot comment on the book of Romans.

 

[ananda]

...It is clear that Frederick Danker has a theological agenda in mind with these changes. Never before in any edition was “believe” linked with “commitment”, until 2000. Now, those pastors who have been saying that have a reference to back them up. Never mind that nearly a century of work never linked the two words before. This should cause alarm for all serious students of the Word of God, since the meaning of the very important word has been changed to fit the specific theology of Lordship salvation.

No, it is not "clear than Danker has a theological agenda in mind with these changes". Whomever wrote this showed no data or evidence - except the author's own allegation - that this change was based on his specific preconceived theology or evidence otherwise from ancient Greek manuscripts.

In fact, the evidence shows otherwise. Other lexicons, as I've shown in this very thread, also gloss meanings similar to BDAG's gloss re: compliance.

 

[guuila]

You can't tolerate an accurate challenge and correction, can you? So you give me another red herring by changing the topic.

Are you saying that you don't want to interact with me?

Red herring.

 

[guuila]

As I said, you answered your own question in your point #2. Didn't you read what you wrote?

Was that a yes or no?

 

[guuila]

Of course. When there are assertions without any evidence. The red herring was the OP. Nothing more than an attempt to demonize a theology you disagree with. Unfortunately for you, FG theology IS supported by Scripture. Unlike Calvinism, for example.

Red herring.

 

[guuila]

I guess this was overlooked.

We've been over that. Please review it.

We've been over what?

The real question is why you believe that one must keep their lives clean to be saved? Where do you get that from?

Where did I say that?