Why the desire to sin?

Ken-1122

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You have shifted your language! :) Earlier - to continue your metaphor -you wrote of God allowing fires and now you've moved to him starting fires. Let's stick with your original question and not introduce a new presupposition via a modified question. (At another time maybe we'll be up for discussing if someone allowing an event is the same as a person causing the event.)
Good point! I should have said; why did he allow the fires to start in the first place.

Assuming God is omnipotent, how would any situation exist for him to display his greatness if he did not at he very least allow it?
Why does he need to show his greatness? If you've got it no need to flaut it.

He allowed fires to display his ability and character by putting them out and for the ones saved from the fires to praise his fire-quenching abilities and esteem the character shown in his willingness to put out fires that he had zero obligation to extinguish.
But in the process of putting out all those fires and saving a lot of people, there are a lot of people who die in the fire as well. What about those people?

Ken
 
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Hospes

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Why does he need to show his greatness? If you've got it no need to flaunt it.

Ken

I am taking the easier of your two questions first, just to keep things focused.

We all find satisfaction and delight in what we value. I love a good port, the masculine beauty/harshness of Grand Canyon, the accomplishments of my sons, etc. I am sure you have your list. If you prompted me I could tell you stories of hiking Grand Canyon and you'd recognize my love and appreciation for the place. Note in your own life how the things you highly value are the things you tend to enjoy praising to others. C. S. Lewis wrote our praise of what we value is the consummation of our delight in them.

If God is the most praiseworthy of the universe, then couldn't it be he takes delight in his own glory - i.e. all that makes him praiseworthy - and that we also finds pleasure in his glory? Just as I would talk your ear off in an effort to bring you into an appreciation of Grand Canyon so that you could enjoy it also, couldn't God desire to bring us into an appreciation of himself so that we could take part in his enjoyment? So him "flaunting it" is an act of love in that it invites others into the enjoyment of the praising and extolling the Most High.

Makes sense?

PS - Good questions and thanks for the engaging dialog.
 
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Ken-1122

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I am taking the easier of your two questions first, just to keep things focused.

We all find satisfaction and delight in what we value. I love a good port, the masculine beauty/harshness of Grand Canyon, the accomplishments of my sons, etc. I am sure you have your list. If you prompted me I could tell you stories of hiking Grand Canyon and you'd recognize my love and appreciation for the place. Note in your own life how the things you highly value are the things you tend to enjoy praising to others. C. S. Lewis wrote our praise of what we value is the consummation of our delight in them.

If God is the most praiseworthy of the universe, then couldn't it be he takes delight in his own glory - i.e. all that makes him praiseworthy - and that we also finds pleasure in his glory? Just as I would talk your ear off in an effort to bring you into an appreciation of Grand Canyon so that you could enjoy it also, couldn't God desire to bring us into an appreciation of himself so that we could take part in his enjoyment? So him "flaunting it" is an act of love in that it invites others into the enjoyment of the praising and extolling the Most High.

Makes sense?

PS - Good questions and thanks for the engaging dialog.
Your discription of God makes him seem arrogant, self centered, and totally full of himself. Not a very good discription of God IMO.
What about the other questions?

Ken
 
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oi_antz

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I am not saying you are incorrect, I believe it is possible to cheat in a way that is not a sin.
Actually, I was meaning my statement in #318:

"No, they have a desire to thrive. They prefer sin to equal rights, thus the determination of those harmful verses those helpful."

Which you stated was "null" in #331. Can you explain why you think my statement was not true?
I believe it was Stephen Roberts who said:
When you understand how you can dismiss the possibility of all the other Gods people worship, you will then be able to understand how I can dismiss the possibility of yours.

Ken
I don't accept that though, I accept the evidence provided by those who witnessed Jesus and recorded Him. I don't accept ideas that just pop into someone's mind as they are sitting under a tree, nor do I trust an angel that comes along and wants to rewrite history.

Therefore, I choose to believe that Jesus' followers were honest. I also choose to believe that Mohammad was honest. I also choose to believe that Budhha was honest. The one I don't believe to be honest is whoever they were believing to be honest. That cannot be said of the events of Jesus, one can only say that the witnesses were dishonest. As for atheism, I don't understand at all how you cannot love God. I accept that if I had your life experience I would be capable of understanding it.

Your discription of God makes him seem arrogant, self centered, and totally full of himself. Not a very good discription of God IMO.

Ken
Do you think that is the way Hospes sees it, and the vision he was trying to convey?
 
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Hospes

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Your description of God makes him seem arrogant, self centered, and totally full of himself. Not a very good description of God IMO.
What about the other questions?

Ken
Hi Ken.

Before the other question, I want to respond to your last response.

It may surprise you I am in agreement in thinking my description paints God as self-centered and quite literally full of himself. You and I disagree in thinking it is a unflattering description of God, though at one time I would have shared your opinion.

Think for a moment why you believe the description does not make God seem praiseworthy. I know why I used to think so: it was because self-centeredness is ugly in myself and other people. To think more highly of myself than is reasonable and to want everyone else to put me first are truly ugly characteristics. But it is only ugly because what/who I am and what I deserve does not give me any reason to see myself as praiseworthy and for me to to be the center of everyone's life.

But God is not like me. If I accept he is all-knowing, all-powerful, the source of all good, and unchanging, then he really is a person whom can think highly of himself and be right in doing so. In fact, for him to put something else before himself would be an act of him putting something less-than-best before what is best, which would be a wrong act.

Finally, if I am honest with myself, there is a part of me wanting to be the center of the universe; I want to be most important. That part of me is threatened and offended at God's claim of being the center and most important. You will find in this forum so many people desperately and mistakenly wanting to be the very reason for God's existence, i.e for mankind to be what rocks God's world. In reality, God is God, we are not God, and he rocks our world.
 
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Ken-1122

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Actually, I was meaning my statement in #318:

"No, they have a desire to thrive. They prefer sin to equal rights, thus the determination of those harmful verses those helpful."

Which you stated was "null" in #331. Can you explain why you think my statement was not true?
When one says equal rights, people usually think of equal rights for an entire group of people (race, ethnicity, religious groups, etc) Not equal rights for the individual. That is what I asumed when I said it was not about equal rights.
I don't accept that though, I accept the evidence provided by those who witnessed Jesus and recorded Him. I don't accept ideas that just pop into someone's mind as they are sitting under a tree, nor do I trust an angel that comes along and wants to rewrite history.

Therefore, I choose to believe that Jesus' followers were honest. I also choose to believe that Mohammad was honest. I also choose to believe that Budhha was honest. The one I don't believe to be honest is whoever they were believing to be honest. That cannot be said of the events of Jesus, one can only say that the witnesses were dishonest. As for atheism, I don't understand at all how you cannot love God. I accept that if I had your life experience I would be capable of understanding it.
I don't think it has to do with my life experiences; I think it is about me being skeptical of unsubstantiated claims. You said you do not accept ideas that pops into someone's mind while sitting under a tree; or an angel that comes to rewrite history, but you choose to accept the followers of Jesus were honest as reasons for dismissing other religions while accepting your own? I am the same except I also don't accept the claims of the followers of Jesus either.

Do you think that is the way Hospes sees it, and the vision he was trying to convey?
Yes.

K
 
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Ken-1122

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Hi Ken.

Before the other question, I want to respond to your last response.

It may surprise you I am in agreement in thinking my description paints God as self-centered and quite literally full of himself. You and I disagree in thinking it is a unflattering description of God, though at one time I would have shared your opinion.

Think for a moment why you believe the description does not make God seem praiseworthy. I know why I used to think so: it was because self-centeredness is ugly in myself and other people. To think more highly of myself than is reasonable and to want everyone else to put me first are truly ugly characteristics. But it is only ugly because what/who I am and what I deserve does not give me any reason to see myself as praiseworthy and for me to to be the center of everyone's life.
Thus far we agree!
But God is not like me. If I accept he is all-knowing, all-powerful, the source of all good, and unchanging, then he really is a person whom can think highly of himself and be right in doing so. In fact, for him to put something else before himself would be an act of him putting something less-than-best before what is best, which would be a wrong act.
I'm not suggesting he should put someone before himself, just that one shouldn't rub their superiority in everyone's face. The way you were discribing, I wouldn't even treat my dog that way!
Finally, if I am honest with myself, there is a part of me wanting to be the center of the universe; I want to be most important. That part of me is threatened and offended at God's claim of being the center and most important. You will find in this forum so many people desperately and mistakenly wanting to be the very reason for God's existence,
I doubt there are many self centered and arrogant people on this fourm as you discribe

Ken
 
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Hospes

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I'm not suggesting he should put someone before himself, just that one shouldn't rub their superiority in everyone's face. The way you were describing, I wouldn't even treat my dog that way!

My apologies if I gave you the idea of God rubbing his superiority in everyone's' face. That wasn't my intent at all. Remember how my premise was that both you and I find pleasure in praising what we esteem. Just as I would try my best to get you to see the glory of Grand Canyon so that you could share in my esteem of it, God shows all the reasons he is to be esteemed as an invitation to find pleasure in him. Personally, I find pleasure worth pursuing.

Back to the harder question you asked. You wrote "But in the process of putting out all those fires and saving a lot of people, there are a lot of people who die in the fire as well. What about those people?" Just so that I understand, what specifically are you getting at in asking? (Though it kinda sounds like it, I am not trying to be coy.) My guess is you sense there is something unjust in God punishing someone to the extent Christianity asserts. But I shouldn't be guessing; what are the assertions behind your question?

Thanks, Ken, for the thoughtful dialog.
 
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Ken-1122

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My apologies if I gave you the idea of God rubbing his superiority in everyone's' face. That wasn't my intent at all. Remember how my premise was that both you and I find pleasure in praising what we esteem. Just as I would try my best to get you to see the glory of Grand Canyon so that you could share in my esteem of it, God shows all the reasons he is to be esteemed as an invitation to find pleasure in him. Personally, I find pleasure worth pursuing.

Back to the harder question you asked. You wrote "But in the process of putting out all those fires and saving a lot of people, there are a lot of people who die in the fire as well. What about those people?" Just so that I understand, what specifically are you getting at in asking? (Though it kinda sounds like it, I am not trying to be coy.) My guess is you sense there is something unjust in God punishing someone to the extent Christianity asserts. But I shouldn't be guessing; what are the assertions behind your question?

Thanks, Ken, for the thoughtful dialog.
I just don't see the point of God allowing Satan in the Garden of Eden; knowing what he was gonna do, especially since he didn't have Jesus, the Holy Spirit or some other force of good to counter the force of bad that Satan provided.

Ken
 
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ebia

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Ken-1122 said:
I just don't see the point of God allowing Satan in the Garden of Eden; knowing what he was gonna do, especially since he didn't have Jesus, the Holy Spirit or some other force of good to counter the force of bad that Satan provided. Ken
If one is going to assume the snake is satan at all, it's probably more helpful to understanding the Genesis story to think about him as the OT idea of accuser, rather than the NT idea of evil personified.
 
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oi_antz

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When one says equal rights, people usually think of equal rights for an entire group of people (race, ethnicity, religious groups, etc) Not equal rights for the individual. That is what I asumed when I said it was not about equal rights.
Ah! Sorry about that. So you can see what I meant, and agree?
I don't think it has to do with my life experiences; I think it is about me being skeptical of unsubstantiated claims. You said you do not accept ideas that pops into someone's mind while sitting under a tree; or an angel that comes to rewrite history, but you choose to accept the followers of Jesus were honest as reasons for dismissing other religions while accepting your own? I am the same except I also don't accept the claims of the followers of Jesus either.
Yes, I see that is what you believe, it's generally the only way to dismiss the facts. I don't believe the witnesses were dishonest though. I believe their faith was just as sincere as mine, and much more justified.
That's interesting! Why do you think he might want to give you that impression?
 
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Hospes

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I just don't see the point of God allowing Satan in the Garden of Eden; knowing what he was gonna do, especially since he didn't have Jesus, the Holy Spirit or some other force of good to counter the force of bad that Satan provided.

Ken

Since you and I have written about what was God's main point of allowing Adam to fall, I am thinking your statement has more to do with the injustice of God setting Adam in the position of having to do something - obedience about not eating of the fruit- Adam was not equipped by God to handle. Not only that, God allowing the circumstances that enticed Adam to disobey. Am I thinking rightly?

PS - Hope you are not feeling too ganged up on by myself, oi_antz, and ebia. :)
 
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Ken-1122

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Ah! Sorry about that. So you can see what I meant, and agree?
I still don't believe equal rights is the issue
Yes, I see that is what you believe, it's generally the only way to dismiss the facts.
How does my skeptism dismis the facts?
I don't believe the witnesses were dishonest though. I believe their faith was just as sincere as mine, and much more justified.
Their faith may be sincere but IMO the problem with faith is there is no means of establishing the truth
That's interesting! Why do you think he might want to give you that impression?
Because that is what he believes

Ken
 
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Ken-1122

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Since you and I have written about what was God's main point of allowing Adam to fall, I am thinking your statement has more to do with the injustice of God setting Adam in the position of having to do something - obedience about not eating of the fruit- Adam was not equipped by God to handle. Not only that, God allowing the circumstances that enticed Adam to disobey. Am I thinking rightly?
You are right
PS - Hope you are not feeling too ganged up on by myself, oi_antz, and ebia. :)
The more the merrier\

Ken
 
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Hospes

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From my earlier post: "...the injustice of God setting Adam in the position of having to do something - obedience about not eating of the fruit- Adam was not equipped by God to handle. Not only that, God allowing the circumstances that enticed Adam to disobey."

Ken, do you think a father ever wants his child to fail? Do you think a father may have a desire that is greater than not wanting his child to fail and thus allows his child to fail?
 
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Ken-1122

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Ken, do you think a father ever wants his child to fail? Do you think a father may have a desire that is greater than not wanting his child to fail and thus allows his child to fail?
I understand what you are saying, but when I look at the results of God allowing Adam to fail you gotta ask; what desire did God have in mind? It's been 6000 years already and we don't see nothing good yet.

Ken
 
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