soul sleep
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Florierte Gottes
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[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]"Rich Man and Lazarus" of Luke 16, comes [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]in a series of Parables[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif] after a small discourse to great multitudes really beginning in Luke 14:25[/FONT]
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And there went [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]great multitudes[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif] with him: and [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]he turned, and said unto them[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif], Luke 14:25
[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]...and also in Luke 15:1-2, to tax collectors, sinners who surrounded Him and to Pharisees and Scribes who were complaining...[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]
Then [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]drew near unto him all the publicans and sinners for to hear him[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]. Luke 15:1
And [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]the Pharisees and scribes[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif] murmured, saying, This man receiveth sinners, and eateth with them. Luke 15:2
[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]...and as Jesus heard the Pharisees and Scribes complaining and so HE speaks unto them in parables beginning in Luke 15:3[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]
And [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]he spake this parable unto them[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif], saying, Luke 15:3
[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]...and continues with the Parable of the "man with the 100 Sheep who had one lost" from Luke 15:4-7, and then begins another Parable in Luke 15:8-10 about the "Woman who Lost a Coin" Luke 15:11[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]
[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif][though Jesus is still speaking in Parables, in both instances in the scriptures it does not specifically say that the words to come after verses 8 or 11 were Parable, but yet that is because the scripture had already made clear that this was what Jesus was doing from verse 3][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]
And he said, A certain man had two sons: Luke 15:11
[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]...which then begins the Parable from Luke 15:11-32 about the "Man who had Two Sons" [Prodigal Sons Parable].[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]
[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Jesus then turns to His disciples and continues in Luke 16:1, with yet another parable, the parable of the "God and Mammon"[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]
And [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]he said also unto his disciples[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif], There was a certain rich man, which had a steward; and the same was accused unto him that he had wasted his goods. Luke 16:1
[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]...and the word "also" joins the previous parables with this parable along with what further continues ["they heard all these things"]...now after that Mammon Parable, the Pharisees, being lovers of Money, broke into the series of Parables and derided Jesus in Luke 16:14[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]
And [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]the Pharisees also[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif], who were covetous, [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]heard all these things[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]: and they derided him. Luke 16:14
[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]...but Jesus immediately counters their derision with what the Law says on the matter about Money and Divorce in Luke 16:15-18 and then drives home the point of their hypocrisy and double standard as well as their neglect of duty to being the Light to the Gentiles with the Parable of Luke 16:19-31 in the Parable of the "Rich Man And Lazarus"...[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]
And [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]he said unto them[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif], Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God. Luke 16:15
[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Now that it is established that the "Rich Man and Lazarus" is indeed a Parable, let us look a little further at some scriptures to be even more and absolutely sure:
When Jesus spoke of these things to the Pharisees He said that He would speak to them in parable:[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]
I will [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]open my mouth in a parable[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]: I will [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]utter dark sayings of old[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]: Psalm 78:2
And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]unto them that are without, all [these] things are done in parables[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]: Mark 4:11
And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]. Luke 8:10
And [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]the Pharisees also[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif], who were covetous, [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]heard all these things[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]: and they derided him. Luke 16:14
And [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]he said unto them[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif], Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God. Luke 16:15
[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]...This Parable does not start with the words the Kingdom of Heaven is like... as it is about the failure of the Nation of Israel to be the Light of the world.
The parable is not giving us a specific picture of an etheral place a person goes immediately after death [for first of all the Judgment must come first, God said that the Wheat and Tares grow together unto the end, then is the Harvest, and then are the Wheat gathered into the Barn and then only are the Tares thrown into the fire, which consumes them into smoke and ashes to be no more, which fire burns upon the whole surface of the earth, their body [made of dust] and whole being [breath plus dust] being cast into the fire all together, at the same time, to be destroyed, perished, not be any more]:
...The Parable Lesson:[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]
[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]The certain rich man [Pharisaical Israel], a child of Abraham, who has the TRUTH that are not sharing their food [the Word of God; Bread, see Deuteronomy 8:3; Matthew 4:4; Luke 4:4] with the poor...[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]
Blessed [are] the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Matthew 5:3
[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]...of which even the "dogs" [samaritans, gentiles] must lick the wounds of...[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]
And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table. Matthew 15:27
And she answered and said unto him, Yes, Lord: yet the dogs under the table eat of the children's crumbs. Mark 7:28
[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]...they may find that in the Judgment the poor are saved and the rich are lost.
The responsibility is to share the Gospel,[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]
Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give. Matthew 10:8
[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Let us now look at the Parable itself... where Jesus swaps the roles and and beliefs of Gentile and Jew...to teach an important lesson about salvation, in that it does not come through bloodline, etc.[/FONT]
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Florierte Gottes
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Jesus was telling them [Pharisees and those listening] that if they did not share the Gospel with the "Poor", that they might find that many come from the East and the West and sit down in the Kingdom with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob [at the Resurrection at the end of the world], and that they themselves would be cast out while [To whom much is given, much is required] the Gentiles be let in.
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This was a huge reversal to the reality that the Pharisaical Jews had in mind about who was to be in the Kingdom and how it was to come.
They had come to believe that there was a salvation by physical descendancy, nationality, by bloodline.
Christ Jesus told them it was not so by the use of the parable. They would have been taken aback and aghast that such a statement should be made.
Key factors that identify it as a Symbolical [and not literal] Parable:[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]
[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1.[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Jesus was speaking directly to the Pharisees while amongst many, ie. a parable and uses their own incorrect understandings in a role-reversal.
[Another close relation can be viewed elsewhere when God is speaking of a similar time of failure of the Jewish nation to be what they were supposed to be]:[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]
Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy. Eze. 16:49
[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]2.[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif] The dead know nothing. Also how could any communicate or consciously form coherent thought and speech while in writhing burning agony [literal physical or extreme mental anguish makes no difference]. God is no sadist, and neither are the redeemed, they would not enjoy seeing people burn for all eternity, for that is a picture of the character of God that Satan himself has foisted upon Christ - it makes God out to be the devil, the one who wants/allows pain and suffering and misery to continue.
[Yet we know that it was satan in the Garden who wanted Adam and Eve to eat from the Tree of Life after partaking of the other Tree and remain immortal sinners...in Loving Mercy, Christ allowed no such thing, and barred the way to the Tree of Life. God has said that sin, pain and suffering will end for all time and never rise again, God will not allow it to be prolonged into eternity.]:[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]
The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence. Psa. 115:17
For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Ecc. 9:5
Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do [it] with thy might; for [there is] no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest. Ecc. 9:10
[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif][See previous evidence on this.][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]
[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]3. [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]The certain “rich man” [Pharisaical Israel, the “children of Abraham”] prays not to God, but to “Abraham” [“salvation by special relation”, ie. Salvation simply by being a Jew; which Christ Jesus over and over again refuted ...[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]
And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to [our] father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. Mat. 3:9
"... begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to [our] father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham." Luk 3:8;p
"They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father..." Jhn 8:39;p]
[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]...of which “Lazarus” [meaning: “He whom God helps”, a form of Eleazer, ie. "the poor"] is directly in the “bosom” of.[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]
[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]4.[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif] The “Bosom of Abraham”, which is a colloquial or euphemistic saying [symbolical], for Abraham himself, who not yet being in Heaven but in the grave, is still sleeping and awaiting for New Jerusalem from above and for the promises:[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]
For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker [is] God. Heb. 11:10
These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off ...and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. Heb. 11:13;p
But now they desire a better [country], that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city. Heb. 11:16
In my Father's house are many mansions: if [it were] not [so], I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. Jhn 14:2
"And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven..." Rev. 21:2;p
[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]5.[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif] One drop of literal water being able to cool and relieve someone in “hellfire” is unsound, but since Water in the Bible symbolically represents the "Water of Life"[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]
But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life. Jhn 4:14
[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif][See also Exo. 17:6; Psa. 114:8; 1 Cor. 10:4; Rev. 21:6, 22:1,17, etc]
...and the "Living Water"...[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]
"... he would have given thee living water." Jhn 4:10;p
[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif][See also Exo. 17:6; Psa. 114:8; 1 Cor. 10:4; Jer. 2:13, Jhn 4:11, 7:38, etc] it is to this that it represents.[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]
"... he would have given thee living water." Jhn 4:10;p
He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. Jhn 7:38
And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. 1 Cor. 10:4
[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]6. [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]The word used here in the Greek for “Hell” is “hades” “[/FONT][FONT=Cambria Math, serif]ᾅ[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]δης” and means the general idea of the grave and death, the destination of men:[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]
In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou [art], and unto dust shalt thou return. Gen. 3:19, like the Hebrew term “Sheol” and not a place of “eternal torment”.
[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif][See previous evidence...][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]
[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]7.[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif] “Abraham” is asked to send "Lazarus" to dip his "Finger" in water and the Rich man has a "Tongue". If they both are supposed to be "bodyless" [immortal incorporal men-shades] then how is this so?[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]
[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]8.[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif] “Abraham” in the story tells the “rich man” if his relatives do not hear the Law [Moses] and the Prophets [ie. The Word of God; See Mat. 5:17, 7:12, 11:13, 22:40; Luk 16:16, 24:27,44; Jhn 1:45; Acts 13:15, 24:24, 28:23; Rom. 3:21], then they will not repent though one rose from the Dead; the Law and the Prophets speak of Jesus:[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]
Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. Jhn 5:39
[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]...the one who would rise from the dead [some have said is speaking of the actual Lazarus whom Jesus was to later Raise, but even more so it is speaking of Jesus whom the scriptures reveal]:[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]
Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. Jhn 2:19
But he spake of the temple of his body. Jhn 2:21
[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]...and the one whom they rejected because they had already rejected the Law:[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]
And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition. Mrk 7:9
I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you. Jhn 8:37
But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham. Jhn 8:40
[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]...and rejected the Prophets:[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]
The baptism of John, whence was it? from heaven, or of men? And they reasoned with themselves, saying, If we shall say, From heaven; he will say unto us, Why did ye not then believe him? Mat. 21:25
For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen [it], repented not afterward, that ye might believe him. Mat. 21:32
The baptism of John, was [it] from heaven, or of men? answer me. Mrk 11:30
But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him. Luk 7:30
The baptism of John, was it from heaven, or of men? Luk 20:4
And they reasoned with themselves, saying, If we shall say, From heaven; he will say, Why then believed ye him not? Luk 20:5
[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]This same example was given of Herod the Tetrarch with John the Baptist.[/FONT]
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Florierte Gottes
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[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Herod had heard John [the Prophet] the Baptist preach:[/FONT]
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For Herod feared John, knowing that he was a just man and an holy, and observed him; and when he heard him, he did many things, and heard him gladly. Jhn 6:20
[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]...but had him beheaded [murdered, transgression of the law] anyway:[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]
But when Herod heard [thereof], he said, It is John, whom I beheaded: he is risen from the dead. Mrk 6:16
"And Herod said, John have I beheaded: ..." Luk 9:9;p
[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]...and when Jesus came before him at trial:[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]
"... Herod saw Jesus, ... he had heard many things of him; and he hoped to have seen some miracle done by him." Luk 23:8;p
[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]...He answered Herod not a word:[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]
Then he questioned with him in many words; but he answered him nothing. Luk 23:9
[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]...for Herod had already rejected the message of John the Baptist, the Prophet, and the Law by murdering him, beheading him. If he would not listen to the Prophet, nor the Law, he would not have listened to Jesus:[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]
And he charged them, saying, Take heed, beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, and [of] the leaven of Herod. Mrk 8:15
[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]9.[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif] Immediate judgment upon one's death before resurrection, being unbiblical, for Jesus 2nd Advent must come first:[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]
"...[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]at the last trump[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]: for the trumpet shall sound, and [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]the dead shall be raised[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif] incorruptible..." 1 Cor. 15:52;p
Henceforth there is laid up for me [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]a crown of righteousness[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif], which [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]: and not to me only, but [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]unto all them[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif] also [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]that love his appearing[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]. 2 Tim. 4:8
[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]In [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Luke 16:26[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif] the "Great Gulf Fixed" is death itself, probation closed. After a person dies there is no more chance to repent, no more chance to change directions, no chance to "purgate", the decisions beforehand in life are eternal, as Christ has stated in numerous occasions and therefore there is no purgatory and no limbo.[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]
[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Either a person is written in the Lamb's book of Life, or they are blotted out from it, either a person is in Christ Jesus who is Life, or they are not and will eventually cease to have life - [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John 3:16 says Perish or Everlasting Life[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif] [the wicked receive no such gift as everlasting life [there are no immortalized wicked anywhere and never will be], it is only a gift to the saved/just/righteous].[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]
[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Additionally, it is [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]the Righteous who will dwell with everlasting burnings (Isaiah 33:14)[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif], for God is a consuming fire [to sin and of Love] [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif](Deuteronomy 4:24, 9:3; Hebrews 12:29)[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif] and His ministers a flame of fire [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif](Psalms 104:4; Hebrews 1:7)[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif] and His Throne of Fire [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif](Daniel 7:9; Revelation 4:5)[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif] and His speech fire [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif](2 Samuel 22:9; Psalms 18:8)[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif] for He is a purifying fire [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif](Malachi 3:3)[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif] and it is they who have the victory over sin who stand upon the sea of glass mingled with fire [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif](Revelation 15:2)[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif], and will be as the burning bush which was not consumed [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif](Exodus 3:3)[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif], not the wicked [they are burnt up into smoke and ashes at the meeting out of Judgment, they are perished; [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Job 20:26,29, 31:2-3; Psalms 7:9, 9:17, 11:6, 21:9, 37:10, 37:20, 37:28,38, 68:2, 69:28, 75:8,10, 92:7,9, 104:35, 106:18, 112:10, 145:20; Proverbs 2:22, 10:25,28,30, 12:7, 13:9, 14:11, 24:20; Ezekiel 18:4, 18:20; Isaiah 13:9, 66:17,24; Nahum 1:10; Obadiah 1:16; Zephaniah 1:2-3; Matthew 10:28; John 3:16; Romans 6:23; Hebrews 6:8; James 1:15; 2 Peter 3:10; Revelation 20:9, 21:4[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]].[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]
[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]As is clear from scripture, rewards [for Good or Evil] are not given until Jesus comes for He Himself has said:
And, behold, [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]I come quickly[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]; and [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]my reward [is] with me[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif], to give every man according as his work shall be. Revelation 22:12[/FONT]
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Setyoufree
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The problem is you are making metaphors the truth. You have to understand the metaphor to understand the truth on any subject.
Take your classic Ecc 12:6 Remember your Creator before the silver cord is loosed, Or the golden bowl is broken, Or the pitcher shattered at the fountain, Or the wheel broken at the well.
Notice that all these metaphors are speaking about death.
Then verse 7
Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, And the spirit will return to God who gave it.
Notice that all this is symbolic or metaphorically language. Does anything return to God? No, but metaphorically speaking God gave life so it returns to Him. That's all it is saying.
If you want to see Scripture where Jesus explains metaphors then you need to go to there. Take for example John 11
(Jesus) said to them (the disciples), "Our friend Lazarus sleeps, but I go that I may wake him up." 12 Then His disciples said, "Lord, if he sleeps he will get well." 13 However, Jesus (metaphorically) spoke of his death, but they thought that He was speaking about taking rest in sleep. 14 Then Jesus said to them plainly, "Lazarus is dead.
Notice that when Jesus brought Lazarus back from the dead He didn't say Lazarus' spirit come down and reunite with his body. No, Jesus said "come forth".
Again, all this nonsense that we have something in us that is immortal is just "code" for saying I have something in me that's good.
You see we are by nature legalistic & proud. We think we have something we can offer God in return for heaven. We want credit....
So it's nice to hear at a funeral that sweet, loveable grandmother is in heaven with the angels, but that's assuming grandmother was righteous.
But the Bible is very, very plain: "As it is written, there is none righteous, no, not even one."
Now grandmother might have done some good things, but the law is not in the business of handing out credit. The law demands perfect, unblemished obedience in deed and motive. One mistake and you are a sinner.
So no, grandmother is not in heaven. If she was a believer she will come up with a immortal, sinless humanity at the 2nd coming. If not, she will come up in the 2nd resurrection. Then she will face the curse of the law.....
Take your classic Ecc 12:6 Remember your Creator before the silver cord is loosed, Or the golden bowl is broken, Or the pitcher shattered at the fountain, Or the wheel broken at the well.
Notice that all these metaphors are speaking about death.
Then verse 7
Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, And the spirit will return to God who gave it.
Notice that all this is symbolic or metaphorically language. Does anything return to God? No, but metaphorically speaking God gave life so it returns to Him. That's all it is saying.
If you want to see Scripture where Jesus explains metaphors then you need to go to there. Take for example John 11
(Jesus) said to them (the disciples), "Our friend Lazarus sleeps, but I go that I may wake him up." 12 Then His disciples said, "Lord, if he sleeps he will get well." 13 However, Jesus (metaphorically) spoke of his death, but they thought that He was speaking about taking rest in sleep. 14 Then Jesus said to them plainly, "Lazarus is dead.
Notice that when Jesus brought Lazarus back from the dead He didn't say Lazarus' spirit come down and reunite with his body. No, Jesus said "come forth".
Again, all this nonsense that we have something in us that is immortal is just "code" for saying I have something in me that's good.
You see we are by nature legalistic & proud. We think we have something we can offer God in return for heaven. We want credit....
So it's nice to hear at a funeral that sweet, loveable grandmother is in heaven with the angels, but that's assuming grandmother was righteous.
But the Bible is very, very plain: "As it is written, there is none righteous, no, not even one."
Now grandmother might have done some good things, but the law is not in the business of handing out credit. The law demands perfect, unblemished obedience in deed and motive. One mistake and you are a sinner.
So no, grandmother is not in heaven. If she was a believer she will come up with a immortal, sinless humanity at the 2nd coming. If not, she will come up in the 2nd resurrection. Then she will face the curse of the law.....
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Florierte Gottes
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We see that Moses was raised from the Dead and the Grave by Michael/Jesus [whose voice can raise the dead, 1 Thessalonians 4:16]? We have only Turn to the Gospels and other NT scriptures to see further evidence:
"Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses..." (Romans 5:14;p), for we see that Christ Jesus/Michael Raised Moses and was the first to be so raised in such a fashion and taken to heaven, for Enoch and Elijah never died, while others were raised and died again, awaiting their resurrection still in sleep, and there was only one other instance, at Jesus own resurrection that He raised others around Jerusalem and took them with Him when He ascended at the Mt of Olives as the Firstfruits unto God....
[There is an awesome typology given here at the Mount of Transfiguration [Moses, Elijah and Jesus, all glorified] that Peter also addresses in His epistles]
How can Moses be raised before Jesus some will ask? Well, other than the texts clearly stating so, Moses was raised in promise of the fulfillment of Christ's own resurrection to come ["he was raised to immortal life, holding his title in the name of the Redeemer"], and thus even appears on the Mount of Transfiguration raised, being sent of the Father, and so speaking with Christ Jesus who was about to go to Jerusalem to die and be raised. Moses could not have been raised beforehand otherwise. Therefore, all who are raised, are only raised because Christ Jesus was crucified, died and was raised [He being the firstfruits, and firstborn [iow, the pre-eminent]], etc.
Moses Resurrection:
Look at the OT texts, in regards to Moses death and burial:
Furthermore the LORD was angry with me for your sakes, and sware that I should not go over Jordan... Deuteronomy 4:21;p
But I must die in this land, I must not go over Jordan... Deuteronomy 4:22;p
So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD. Deuteronomy 34:5
And he buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Bethpeor: but no man knoweth of his sepulchre unto this day. Deuteronomy 34:6
Notice that it was "the LORD" who buried Moses "in a valley in the land of Moab", so that "no man knoweth of his sepulchre unto this day." Christ Jesus/Michael kept the burial place of Moses a secret, so that they [the peoples Israel] would not seek to worship him in death, nor his place of burial.
Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee. Jude 1:9
Notice that Michael ["Who is like unto God?" even the Highest messenger of the Father, thoe one sent forth from the very Bosom of the Father], contends with the devil who is resisting Him about raising Moses to life, hence "disputed about the body of Moses". For the devil [satan] claimed Moses was his captive in death ["...him that had the power of death, that is, the devil." Hebrews 2:14;p], since Moses had sinned in striking the rock twice, disobeying the LORD, who had said, only speak to it [Numbers 20:8].
Since Christ Jesus is Michael, God the Son, we know that Jesus is the "...I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live" John 11:25;p
We see that Moses was raised from the Dead and the Grave by Michael/Jesus [for whose voice can raise the dead?, "the Lord himself shall descend from heaven ...with the voice of the archangel...the dead in Christ shall rise..." 1 Thessalonians 4:16;p]?
Turning to the Gospels:
...Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart, Matthew 17:1;p
And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light. Matthew 17:2
"transfigured before them", in their direct eyesight.
And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him. (Matthew 17:3)[Elijah never died, for he was translated alive and taken up into Heaven]
"behold": "idou" "ἰδού"; meaning: "1) behold, see, lo[ok]" [Strong's Concordance] [see also Thayer's Lexicon and Vine's Expository]
"appeared": "optanomai" "ὀπτάνομαι"; meaning: "1) to look at, behold; 2) to allow one's self to be seen, to appear" [Strong's Concordance] [see also Thayer's Lexicon and Vine's Expository]
And when the disciples heard [it], they fell on their face, and were sore afraid. Matthew 17:6
And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Jesus only. Matthew 17:8
Notice, that after falling upon their faces and hiding, they then lifted their "eyes" and "saw no man, save jesus only", which means that they had literally seen two others [context], namely Moses and Elijah [Elias] before.
And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus. (Mark 9:4) -take careful note that this appearance of Moses and Elijah was no mere dream or vision, but truly happened -
They saw the living "Moses" actually "talking with Jesus".
But Peter and they that were with him were heavy with sleep: and when they were awake, they saw his glory, and the two men that stood with him. Luke 9:32
Notice this passage says that they were "awake" [and some translations say, "fully awake"; ASV, BBE, DET, WEB, etc] and "saw his glory" and "the two men that stood with him".
...Now to Peter's later account.
For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 2 Peter 1:16
For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. 2 Peter 1:17
And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount. 2 Peter 1:18
Notice, Peter specifically says that they were "with him [Jesus] in the holy mount" and were "eyewitnesses" [they literally saw the event] of the Transfiguration of Jesus Christ, and "heard" "the voice" [of the Father].
"eyewitnesses": "epoptēs" "ἐπόπτης"; meaning: "1) an overseer, inspector; 2) spectator, eye witness of anything" [Strong's Concordance]; "...to be used here to designate those privileged to be present at the heavenly spectacle of the transfiguration of Christ." Thayer's lexicon]; "Eyewitness: primarily "an overseer" (epi, "over"), then, a "spectator, an eye-witness" of anything, is used in 2 Peter 1:16 of those who were present at the transfiguration of Christ. ... Cp. epopteuo, "to behold," 1 Peter 2:12, 3:2." [Vine's Expository]
"Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses..." (Romans 5:14;p)
The same day came to him the Sadducees, which say that there is no resurrection, and asked him, Matthew 22:23
Then come unto him the Sadducees, which say there is no resurrection; and they asked him, saying, Mark 12:18
Then came to [him] certain of the Sadducees, which deny that there is any resurrection; and they asked him, Luke 20:27
"For the Sadducees say that there is no resurrection..." Acts 23:8;p
...yet we see Jesus said to them...
Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. Matthew 22:29
But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, Matthew 22:31
And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I [am] the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? Mark 12:26
But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: Luke 20:35
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shturt678
Senior Veteran
The context coming into Jn.8:52, and v.52, is the fact that Abraham died, as well as the prophets, the holiest people named in the O.T., brands as a lie this assertion of Jesus, that one who guards his word shall not experience death forever (v.45, "you do not believe me").
As I stated before: "Abraham died" is the commentary of the Jews themselves on their expression, "shall not at all taste of death." Again with spiritual blindness the Jews substitute physical death for eternal death and thus pervert the word of Jesus.
Regarding the Jew's understanding, ie, the perversion may even be deliberate on the part of the Jews, an evidence of their wicked intention NOT to understand whatever Jesus may say if it does not serve their purpose.
The resurrection at the last day was a well-known article of the Jewish faith of course. No soul snoozing even implied in Jn.8:51, etc., ie, only perversion of the Word.
No soul snoozing here either, ie, let's go to Rev.20:4a cutting through the paper chase. John saw two groups, ie, the martyrs and the Saints. These souls were completely human without bodies. "they reigned with Christ" meaning right then and there up till today in light of God's Saints here on earth begin to reign due to having the true Word containing the divine will.
Thank you again, ie, just ol' old Jack
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SayaOtonashi
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grave is sheol which means they Moses was in a place of both sinners and the people of God Jesus went there not Soul sleeping fo sheol was were all people god it was the underworld not a grave
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Florierte Gottes
Active Member
Sadducees...
No, there are no incorporeal essences floating around somehwere. That also misunderstands the reality of Heaven, and the very real beings and material there in. Do not allow yourself to swallow the spiritism of the vanishing of heaven into mere aether, vapors and non-physical. If you do, you will have evaporated your heavenly reward into nothing, erased God's throne, and disappeared the Law of God all at once.
Revelation 20:4 [a or b] has not happened yet, as the 1,000 years have not yet come, they being the 7th Day of the Lord, the 7th Millennium, the 7,000 year, even known as the Day of the Lord.
Revelation 20 parallels Isaiah 24, textual evidence upon request, and also follows sections of Leviticus 16 and 23, also textual evidence upon request.
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Florierte Gottes
Active Member
Incorrect scripturally. We can even look at all the uses of Sheol, Hades and so on.
C: [grave
The word is "shĕ'owl" "[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]קְבוּרָה[/FONT]" and means "the grave, the pit" the fate of all men who die the first death, so while some are buried in the earth, some in rock, some at sea, some consumed by fire, others eaten by animals, some having a tomb, others no place to speak of to mark them as such, a place for the rich, a place for the poor, etc, etc, all alike are thus ended in the first death, they sink down into death, and have no life until they are resurrected and here are all of the texts it is used in, AV — grave 31, hell 31, pit 3:
Genesis 37:35, 42:38, 44:29,31;
Numbers 16:30,33;
Deuteronomy 32:22;
1 Samuel 2:6;
2 Samuel 22:6;
1 Kings 2:6,9;
Job 7:9, 11:8, 14:13, 17:13,16, 21:13, 24:19, 26:6;
Psalms 6:5, 9:17, 16:10, 18:5, 30:3, 31:17, 49:14,15, 55:15, 86:13, 88:3, 89:48, 116:3, 139:8, 141:7;
Proverbs 1:12, 5:5, 7:27, 9:18, 15:11,24, 23:14, 27:20, 30:16;
Ecclesiastes 9:10;
Song Of Songs [Solomon] 8:6;
Isaiah 5:14, 14:9,11,15, 28:15,18, 38:10,18, 57:9;
Ezekiel 31:15,16,17, 32:21,27;
Hosea 13:14;
Amos 9:2;
Jonah 2:2;
Habakkuk 2:5.
Or other words also:
The word used in contrast in the Hebrew is "qĕbuwrah" "[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]קְבוּרָה[/FONT]" and means "1) grave, burial, burial site; a) grave; b) burial", and really means a place or location of burial, or place marked by tombstone, like a sepulchre. Here are all of the places that it is used in, AV — sepulchre 5, grave 4, burial 4, burying place 1:
Genesis 35:20, 47:30;
Deuteronomy 34:6;
1 Samuel 10:2;
2 Kings 9:28, 21:26, 23:30;
2 Chronicles 26:23;
Ecclesiastes 6:3;
Isaiah 14:20;
Jeremiah 22:19;
Ezekiel 32:23,24.
Another word that is used in the Hebrew is "qeber" "[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]קֶבֶר[/FONT]" and means "1) grave, sepulchre, tomb", being the gravesite, and here are all of the texts where it is used, AV — grave 35, sepulchre 25, buryingplace 6 :
Genesis 23:4,6,9,20, 49:30, 50:5,13;
Exodus 14:11;
Numbers 19:16,18;
Judges 8:32, 16:31;
2 Samuel 2:32, 3:32, 4:12, 17:23, 19:37, 21:14;
1 Kings 13:22,30,31, 14:13;
2 Kings 13:21, 22:20, 23:6,16,17;
2 Chronicles 16:14, 21:20, 24:25, 28:27, 32:33, 34:4,28, 35:24;
Nehemiah 2:3,5, 3:16;
Job 3:22, 5:26, 10:19, 17:1, 21:32;
Psalms 5:9, 88:5,11;
Isaiah 14:19, 22:16, 53:9, 65:4;
Jeremiah 5:16, 8:1, 20:17, 26:23;
Ezekiel 32:22,23,25,26, 37:12, 39:11;
Nahum 1:14.
What text do you refer to when you say "Jesus went there."
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SayaOtonashi
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That what I meant that the people good and bad were in the underworld not an actually grave but hell
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SayaOtonashi
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Hentenza
I will fear no evil for You are with me
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Not really.
2 Cor. 5
6 Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord 7 for we walk by faith, not by [c]sight 8 we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.
Being at home with the Lord does not equate to being in hell.
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Florierte Gottes
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That may be what you stated/meant, but that is not what the texts cited reveal.
Which text were you referring to when you stated, "Jesus went there."
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SayaOtonashi
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No not actually Hell but a place of where both good and bad people. More of an underworld
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Florierte Gottes
Active Member
Exactly, neither does it equate to immortal soul/spirit theology either.
Many people simply miss the point of Paul in that verse, and forget what he says elsewhere.
Firstly, the text is not "We are confident, [I say], and willing rather to be absent from the body [IS] to be present with the Lord." 2 Corinthians 5:8, for the word inbetween "absent from the body" and "to be present with the Lord" is the greek word "kai" [and] and not "is" as many would imply it to mean. See:
"2Co 5:8 θαρρουμενG2292 V-PAI-1P δεG1161 CONJ καιG2532 CONJ ευδοκουμενG2106 V-PAI-1P μαλλονG3123 ADV εκδημησαιG1553 V-AAN εκG1537 PREP τουG3588 T-GSN σωματοςG4983 N-GSN καιG2532 CONJ ενδημησαιG1736 V-AAN προςG4314 PREP τονG3588 T-ASM κυριονG2962 N-ASM"
There is much in that little word "and", from Paul, since he is clear that the passage of time in this world still passes, but the dead know it not, and shall awake in the resurrection, and it is "then" that those which died in the Lord, "shall ever be with the Lord"... that is, they were not "with" Him before, except by hope, even "earnestly desiring" it [2 Corinthians 5:2] and "faith" [2 Corinthians 5:7] in that resurrection...
"Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." 1 Thessalonians 4:17
If we had “immortal souls” that never die, what then is “swallowed up of life”? Nothing. Yet, Paul uses a time word, "then", when did Paul say this was to be?.... Notice that Paul in his previous letter to the Corinthians designates the time of the change and reward, which is at "the Last Trunp".
Scripture says that we are "caught up together" [1 Thessalonians 4:17]. Not individually as we die...
...even as Paul says:
"Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing." [2 Timothy 4:8]
But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. (1 Corinthians 15:23).
Paul clearly says that we are not looking to be "unclothed" [2 Corinthians 5:4], but rather, "earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven" [2 Corinthians 5:2] and "so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked." [2 Corinthians 5:3] and "clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life." [2 Corinthians 5:4]
To be "unclothed" is to be dead and without life, for then there is no housing/clothing [Job 4:19] for the spirit of God [which is His] to quicken/make alive...
Hear what Job hath said:
For there is hope of a tree, if it be cut down, that it will sprout again, and that the tender branch thereof will not cease. Job 14:7
Though the root thereof wax old in the earth, and the stock thereof die in the ground; Job 14:8
[Yet] through the scent of water it will bud, and bring forth boughs like a plant. Job 14:9
But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where [is] he? Job 14:10
[As] the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up: Job 14:11
So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens [be] no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep. Job 14:12
O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me! Job 14:13
If a man die, shall he live [again]? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come. Job 14:14
Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee: thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands. Job 14:15
Indeed, for Jesus shall descend from Heaven with a shout, with the Trump of God...
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SayaOtonashi
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: There is a great deal of confusion in regards to this question. This concept comes primarily from the Apostles' Creed, which states, “He descended into hell.” There are also a few Scriptures which, depending on how they are translated, describe Jesus going to “hell.” In studying this issue, it is important to first understand what the Bible teaches about the realm of the dead.
In the Hebrew Scriptures, the word used to describe the realm of the dead is sheol. It simply means the “place of the dead” or the “place of departed souls/spirits.” The New Testament Greek equivalent of sheol is hades which also refers to “the place of the dead.” Other Scriptures in the New Testament indicate that sheol/hades is a temporary place, where souls are kept as they await the final resurrection and judgment. Revelation 20:11-15 gives a clear distinction between the two. Hell (the lake of fire) is the permanent and final place of judgment for the lost. Hades is a temporary place. So, no, Jesus did not go to hell because hell is a future realm, only put into effect after the Great White Throne Judgment (Revelation 20:11-15).
Sheol/hades is a realm with two divisions (Matthew 11:23, 16:18; Luke 10:15, 16:23; Acts 2:27-31), the abodes of the saved and the lost. The abode of the saved was called “paradise” and “Abraham's bosom.” The abodes of the saved and the lost are separated by a “great chasm” (Luke 16:26). When Jesus ascended to heaven, He took the occupants of paradise (believers) with Him (Ephesians 4:8-10). The lost side of sheol/hades has remained unchanged. All unbelieving dead go there awaiting their final judgment in the future. Did Jesus go to sheol/hades? Yes, according to Ephesians 4:8-10 and 1 Peter 3:18-20.
Read more: Did Jesus go to hell between His death and resurrection?
In the Hebrew Scriptures, the word used to describe the realm of the dead is sheol. It simply means the “place of the dead” or the “place of departed souls/spirits.” The New Testament Greek equivalent of sheol is hades which also refers to “the place of the dead.” Other Scriptures in the New Testament indicate that sheol/hades is a temporary place, where souls are kept as they await the final resurrection and judgment. Revelation 20:11-15 gives a clear distinction between the two. Hell (the lake of fire) is the permanent and final place of judgment for the lost. Hades is a temporary place. So, no, Jesus did not go to hell because hell is a future realm, only put into effect after the Great White Throne Judgment (Revelation 20:11-15).
Sheol/hades is a realm with two divisions (Matthew 11:23, 16:18; Luke 10:15, 16:23; Acts 2:27-31), the abodes of the saved and the lost. The abode of the saved was called “paradise” and “Abraham's bosom.” The abodes of the saved and the lost are separated by a “great chasm” (Luke 16:26). When Jesus ascended to heaven, He took the occupants of paradise (believers) with Him (Ephesians 4:8-10). The lost side of sheol/hades has remained unchanged. All unbelieving dead go there awaiting their final judgment in the future. Did Jesus go to sheol/hades? Yes, according to Ephesians 4:8-10 and 1 Peter 3:18-20.
Read more: Did Jesus go to hell between His death and resurrection?
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shturt678
Senior Veteran
Let's scrutinize Rev.20:4 a little more: John says he saw psuxai, "souls." This term applies also to kai oitines, "and they such." All Greek to me too, but one must interpret going from the ancient languages forward to the English the best one can even if one has an IQ at room temperature, ie, me.
The martyrs and the saints whom John saw were "souls." John couldn't say pneumata because this would not be exact since angels, too, are called "spirits," but have no "souls."
Here psuxai is clearly and completely human.
So in Rev.6:9 John writes: "I saw beneath the altar tas psuxas, the souls of those having been slain because of the Word of God and because of the testimony which they had." My end point:
All the millennialist the last time I checked are certain that the "souls" mentioned in thos verse have bodies, namely, their own bodies by virtue of "the first resurrection" (v.5). They misinterpret "the fiirst resurrection" and thus "the souls" and the whole of vs.1-6, by placing it chronologically after Rev.19:17-21, into their millennium with its two bodily resurrections. It is theosophy to claim that in the orther world souls must at once have bodies.
Just ol' old Jack
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