If God spoke the universe into existence...

[Delphiki]

If God spoke the universe into existence, doesn't that mean the universe is actually the word of God? Wouldn't the universe, with all it's cosmological and geological evidence, be more so the word of God than the bible? The bible, and all of it's editions, revisions, versions, and copies, are still just a minuscule fraction of the universe itself. Why do creationists read and believe mere printed words relayed by man over the actual thing God spoke into existence? If one actually believes God spoke the universe into existence, then how is the universe not literally the word of God?

If one wants to learn about the universe, why wouldn't one look at the universe to do so?

This ought to be a pretty straightforward question, so please do your best to give a straight forward answer using your own words. No bible quotes (obviously). Try not to reference the bible to explain why the bible is more reliable (for hopefully obvious reasons). And also, no Last Tuesdayism (dad).

 

[CabVet]

If one wants to learn about the universe, why wouldn't one look at the universe to do so?

Because the universe gives them the "wrong" answers.

 

[LastSeven]

I wouldn't say the universe is the word of God, but I would say it is held together by the word of God. Don't forget that Jesus is the word of God, therefore if the universe were the word of God then Jesus would be the universe.

Ever hear of the "god particle"? Also known as the Higgs Bosson. It's the particle that gives us mass. The particle that literally holds the universe together. Scientists think they may have created a god particle but because it disappears so quickly they can not capture it, photograph it, or study it in any way. The only record they have of it is a sound wave.

If the glue that holds the universe together is a sound wave, and God "spoke" the world into being, then it stands to reason that without the sound/word of God everything falls apart. The Higgs Boson particle might quite literally be the word of God.

 

[freezerman2000]

"If one wants to learn about the universe, why wouldn't one look at the universe to do so?"
Because there would be to much information for some to be able to contemplate.

 

[LBP]

I'm a creationist, albeit not a young earth creationist, and I certainly look to the universe to learn about the universe. If one thinks the universe gives "wrong" answers about itself vis-à-vis the Bible, one would have to be some version of a young earth creationist who mistakes the Bible for a scientific text. I have no problem with characterizing the universe as the "word of God" if someone finds this to be a clever characterization; the Bible itself says that the universe reveals God, and this is one of the branches of natural theology." The Bible is also the "word of God" in the sense of God's message to mankind. Whether the Bible is "literally" true depends on what one means by "literal" and what "truths" one thinks the Bible is attempting to convey. If one thinks the Bible is literally true in the sense of "conveying scientific information about the universe," I would say that this is incorrect in the same way that it would be incorrect to say that the universe is literally true in the sense of "conveying spiritual truths." The universe gives hints and clues to the existence of a higher creative intelligence but otherwise tells us nothing about who or what this intelligence is; the Bible is a direct revelation as to who and what this intelligence is. If the point of your post is simply that it's bizarre and mistaken to refuse to acknowledge scientific truths on the basis of statements in the Bible, I would agree and feel pretty sure God would too. In my experience, the young earth creationists and other ultra-literalists regard it as some sort of badge of honor to pretend to believe the Bible over their lying eyes and scientific instruments; they seem to have adopted Mark Twain's definition that "Faith is believing what you know ain't so." I prefer to think that God gave us brains and senses for the purpose of investigating his creation and discovering its secrets (and being able to recognize that the Bible isn't even vaguely a scientific text).

 

[AV1611VET]

If God spoke the universe into existence, doesn't that mean the universe is actually the word of God?

No.

What you are describing is called creatio ex Deo; but we believe in creatio ex nihilo.

 

[CabVet]

No.

What you are describing is called creatio ex Deo; but we believe in creatio ex nihilo.

And by "we", you mean you (and maybe your church?).

 

[AV1611VET]

And by "we", you mean you (and maybe your church?).

Ya ... and maybe Wikipedia too.

In theology, the common phrase creatio ex nihilo ("creation out of nothing"), contrasts with creatio ex materia (creation out of some pre-existent, eternal matter) and with creatio ex deo (creation out of the being of God).

SOURCE

 

[CabVet]

Ya ... and maybe Wikipedia too.

SOURCE

That page only explains what ex-nihilo means, it neither offers support for it nor gives a list of people who believe in it.

 

[AV1611VET]

Funny how wikipedia doesn't mention who believes in which version of creation (and the writers certainly don't declare their belief either).

That doesn't mean you can't describe it.

What you are describing is called creatio ex Deo; but we believe in creatio ex nihilo.

 

[AV1611VET]

That page only explains what ex-nihilo means, it neither offers support for it nor gives a list of people who believe in it.

Ain't that a shame?

We're talking ex deo ... aren't we?

 

[CabVet]

That doesn't mean you can't describe it.

And I never said you could (or couldn't). The only thing I questioned was your statement about ex-deo not being the version "we" (implying most Christians) believe in.

 

[AV1611VET]

And I never said you could (or couldn't). The only thing I questioned was your statement about ex-deo not being the version "we" (implying most Christians) believe in.

CabVet, Delphiki asked a [good] question about God and the universe.

You answered with this:

Because the universe gives them the "wrong" answers.

... and I answered with the correct terminology:

What you are describing is called creatio ex Deo; but we believe in creatio ex nihilo.

If you have anything constructive to say; or if you think my answer is wrong, I'll listen.

 

[EternalDragon]

And I never said you could (or couldn't). The only thing I questioned was your statement about ex-deo not being the version "we" (implying most Christians) believe in.

Any Born Again Christian I know of follows the Bible. That is where me and AV as well as any other Christian I know gets our information. (With a little help from the Holy Spirit).

 

[Subduction Zone]

Any Born Again Christian I know of follows the Bible. That is where me and AV as well as any other Christian I know gets our information. (With a little help from the Holy Spirit).

"Born Again" sadly an American phrase that seems to mean: "Purposefully Ignorant". Worldwide most Christians are not purposefully ignorant. They have no problem with science.

 

[EternalDragon]

"Born Again" sadly an American phrase that seems to mean: "Purposefully Ignorant". Worldwide most Christians are not purposefully ignorant. They have no problem with science.

True. Neither I nor Christians I know have a problem with science.

 

[FatBurk]

True. Neither I nor Christians I know have a problem with science.

You have no problem because you don't understand what science is, you don't even realise that you only exist today because of science, without science billions of people who are alive today would never have existed.

Science has done more to benefit mankind than any religion past or present put together.

 

[AV1611VET]

"Born Again" sadly an American phrase that seems to mean: "Purposefully Ignorant". Worldwide most Christians are not purposefully ignorant. They have no problem with science.

Are Christians worldwide born again?

 

[AV1611VET]

you don't even realise that you only exist today because of science,

That's like saying you only got here because of gasoline.

Yes, gasoline runs the car, but where do the cars come from?

Nature runs the hardware that God created.

 

[Delphiki]

So, ED and AV: You both don't believe God spoke the universe into existence? If you believe in ex nihilo, then this means you don't believe God was the creator. Isn't this a little distant from Christian believe, "born again" or not?