doctors call to ban smacking children!

[ebia]

Bigger and stronger does not been the smack is heavy and physically damaging.

Nobody said it did.

What the kid learns is "I hit the cat, then I get hit by dad because he's bigger and stronger - therefore the biggest strongest can hit the smaller weaker with impunity"

I am not advocating hurting powerless people.r

Yes you are. Small children are powerless people, and you are advocating smacks that, by definition, hurt.

 

[elephunky]

Nobody said it did.

What the kid learns is "I hit the cat, then I get hit by dad because he's bigger and stronger - therefore the biggest strongest can hit the smaller weaker with impunity"


Yes you are. Small children are powerless people, and you are advocating smacks that, by definition, hurt.

I get the impression that this is a hot spot for you. Therefore anything I do say will be twisted around to make me sound like I am all for beating children until they submit to adult rules. So there isnt really any point in me discussing this further. We are going around in circles.

 

[ebia]

I get the impression that this is a hot spot for you. Therefore anything I do say will be twisted around to make me sound like I am all for beating children until they submit to adult rules. So there isnt really any point in me discussing this further. We are going around in circles.

i don't need to twist anything. You are hurting children to submit to adult rules.

 

[elephunky]

i don't need to twist anything. You are hurting children to submit to adult rules.

Ebia,

After my last post I took it upon myself to do some research into psychology studies surrounding the smacking/spanking debate. My opinion on this has now changed. I would never intentionally inflict lasting hurt on a child.

 

[ebia]

Ebia, After my last post I took it upon myself to do some research into psychology studies surrounding the smacking/spanking debate. My opinion on this has now changed. I would never intentionally inflict lasting hurt on a child.

Must have been a fast read.

 

[elephunky]

Must have been a fast read.

Well a quick google search came up with a large amount of studies that all pointed at the same result and conclusion. Cannot argue with that. I tend to look to what psychology says in these type of discussions.

 

[Mikaeri]

i don't need to twist anything. You are hurting children to submit to adult rules.

No matter what I or anyone has said about the necessity or rightness of smacking/spanking our children, your blind and twisted logic is detrimental to children..look around and observe the School playground and family dynamics within the home nowadays and see what's been happening over the last 60 years.

Pre 60s, though some aspects of child rearing were certainly not the best, children on the whole new respect for their elders and their teacher..I gave an example in an earlier post about a little 8 year old that was excited that he had punched his female teacher in the face..
The chances are this same little boy would have been physically abused by his parents, that punching, kicking, beating was acceptable and ok behaviour..it is also probable that he would NEVER had been smacked/spanked and taught how to show respect others.

Children are being brought up today without respect for others and especially their parents, that violence is ok and acceptable..
I along with my devoted wife have raised 8 happy respectful children, tthroughout their childhood they were all spanked/smacked for defiance, disobedience..they were all taught right from wrong unlike may children nowadays.

 

[ebia]

No matter what I or anyone has said about the necessity or rightness of smacking/spanking our children, your blind and twisted logic is detrimental to children..look around and observe the School playground and family dynamics within the home nowadays and see what's been happening over the last 60 years. Pre 60s, though some aspects of child rearing were certainly not the best, children on the whole new respect for their elders and their teacher..I gave an example in an earlier post about a little 8 year old that was excited that he had punched his female teacher in the face.. The chances are this same little boy would have been physically abused by his parents, that punching, kicking, beating was acceptable and ok behaviour..it is also probable that he would NEVER had been smacked/spanked and taught how to show respect others. Children are being brought up today without respect for others and especially their parents, that violence is ok and acceptable.. I along with my devoted wife have raised 8 happy respectful children, tthroughout their childhood they were all spanked/smacked for defiance, disobedience..they were all taught right from wrong unlike may children nowadays.

They may or may not have been taught right and wrong, but they were not taught that by hitting them. Forget your argument from complete speculation and see what I've said about Aristotle.

There are particular issues with the ways families are raised currently, but the decline in corporal punishment isn't one of them. A far more significant change is that most families do not have an evening meal around a table together any more. That's a massive loss in learning social behavior and language.

 

[Trogdor the Burninator]

Nobody said it did.

What the kid learns is "I hit the cat, then I get hit by dad because he's bigger and stronger - therefore the biggest strongest can hit the smaller weaker with impunity".

I think you're reading too much into it - in most cases the kid just learns not to hit the cat.

Otherwise the "bigger and stronger" point can be made with any punishment, since the child has no choice but to comply - parents are not having philosophical debates on the merits of time-outs with a 3-year-old.

 

[ebia]

I think you're reading too much into it - in most cases the kid just learns not to hit the cat. Otherwise the "bigger and stronger" point can be made with any punishment, since the child has no choice but to comply - parents are not having philosophical debates on the merits of time-outs with a 3-year-old.

All punishment has problems (and few at systems), but violent ones are much worse. The child learning that there is such a thing as authority is not a bad thing; the idea that authority includes the right to hurt is a bad thing.


The idea that you can do whatever you like and the kid will learn what you want them to learn and only that from it is educationally gibberish.

 

[elephunky]

No matter what I or anyone has said about the necessity or rightness of smacking/spanking our children, your blind and twisted logic is detrimental to children..look around and observe the School playground and family dynamics within the home nowadays and see what's been happening over the last 60 years.

Pre 60s, though some aspects of child rearing were certainly not the best, children on the whole new respect for their elders and their teacher..I gave an example in an earlier post about a little 8 year old that was excited that he had punched his female teacher in the face..
The chances are this same little boy would have been physically abused by his parents, that punching, kicking, beating was acceptable and ok behaviour..it is also probable that he would NEVER had been smacked/spanked and taught how to show respect others.

Children are being brought up today without respect for others and especially their parents, that violence is ok and acceptable..
I along with my devoted wife have raised 8 happy respectful children, tthroughout their childhood they were all spanked/smacked for defiance, disobedience..they were all taught right from wrong unlike may children nowadays.

After looking at the damaging effects of smacking, I support such a ban. However what they need to be doing when they ban it is giving parents alternative methods to discipline their children so we don't have as many ferals.

 

[elephunky]

but violent ones are much worse.

Kids who have physically violent parents end up with a lot of psychological problems.

 

[Trogdor the Burninator]

The idea that you can do whatever you like and the kid will learn what you want them to learn and only that from it is educationally gibberish.

I haven't seen anyone here arguing that.

Just that most children when confronted with a mild smack when they've done something wrong do make the connection between the issue and the punishment.

 

[ebia]

I haven't seen anyone here arguing that. Just that most children when confronted with a mild smack when they've done something wrong do make the connection between the issue and the punishment.

Yes and no. They make the connection "i do this and then he hurts me", which may or may not change the behaviour because of a deterrent effect (deterrence isn't massively effective). But at best what you are getting is compliance. You aren't teaching the child why the behaviour is wrong; you are forcing compliance to a rule. In practice I'm not at all convinced its nearly as effective at even that as is usually supposed - what happened in schools before corporal punishment as abolished was that the same children would be presenting for the same punishment time and time again. This also happens with other punishment approaches. A restorative approach that forces the child to face the actual consequences of their action, rather than one that imposes an artificial "consequence" on the, turns out to be much more effective at changing behaviour, and has that change in behaviour based on real change in thinking.

 

[TheDag]

So he stopped hitting the cat. He didn't learn that its wrong to hurt things - in fact he learned that it's okay to hurt things

evidence of this claim please.

It might. Or it might not. Or it might cause more problem.

while this is true the same can be said of any form of correction and discipline. A raised voice can cause more problems. So on that basis you shouldn't rule it out because it might cause more problems as any form can. The most damaging thing to me in school was words. I remember so well and still to this day am very unforgiving of teachers if they upset me once. Yes I realise that is an issue I need to work on and I work very hard to make sure it doesn't spread to my kids.

And also that one can use one's greater hitting power to make a point. What he could not possibly learn is that hurting is wrong.

Where are you getting this false accusation that greater hitting power is used. Please provide evidence that I have done this. If unable please stop making wrong assumptions based on nothing more than your opinion.

One get at best is compliance, not learning. Very often you won't even get that. At worse you make the behavior worse.

and can you guarantee learning and compliance with other methods? Nope because I have seen it not work with some. Of course with others it does work.

Of course you are also making assumptions about how smacking is used. Assumptions that once again are wrong.

I am very fond of telling the story of two teachers at my high school who had the authority to give the cane to students. It was well known fact that these teachers did not have a cane so could not do so if they wanted to. I can assure you every single student was frightened of them and always did what these teachers said. The damage they inflicted on students is a method you are advocating. Any method can lead to long term harm even more so verbal methods. The punishments I remember most and cause the most resentment were both non-coporal punishments. Like most areas of life it comes down to how it is used that causes long term harm or short term harm or no harm.

 

[TheDag]

Well a quick google search came up with a large amount of studies that all pointed at the same result and conclusion. Cannot argue with that. I tend to look to what psychology says in these type of discussions.

can you link it here. would be interesting reading. certainly any problems mentioned should be evident in my life.

 

[elephunky]

can you link it here. would be interesting reading. certainly any problems mentioned should be evident in my life.

psychology of smacking - Google Scholar

http://www.psychology.org.au/assets/files/mr-disciplining-children-7jan2010.pdf

10 Reasons Why You Shouldn't Spank Your Kids | World of Psychology

Should you hit or smack your child? | Healthshare

Smacking Children: The Consequences and alternatives | Quirky Kid Clinic

Smacking children increases their chances of mental illness later on, say scientists | Mail Online

 

[ebia]

evidence of this claim please.

It's the only connection that's there to be made.

while this is true the same can be said of any form of correction and discipline.

We've already discussed that.

A raised voice can cause more problems.

Yes, but not to the same degree.

So on that basis you shouldn't rule it out because it might cause more problems as any form can.

Raised voices are overused and badly used.

The most damaging thing to me in school was words. I remember so well and still to this day am very unforgiving of teachers if they upset me once. Yes I realise that is an issue I need to work on and I work very hard to make sure it doesn't spread to my kids. Where are you getting this false accusation that greater hitting power is used.

You don't seem to get it. It's not that more physical force is actually used, but that the controlled blow comes from a position of greater potential force.

Please provide evidence that I have done this.

Read up on some psychology.

If unable please stop making wrong assumptions based on nothing more than your opinion. and can you guarantee learning and compliance with other methods? Nope because I have seen it not work with some. Of course with others it does work. Of course you are also making assumptions about how smacking is used. Assumptions that once again are wrong. I am very fond of telling the story of two teachers at my high school who had the authority to give the cane to students. It was well known fact that these teachers did not have a cane so could not do so if they wanted to. I can assure you every single student was frightened of them and always did what these teachers said. The damage they inflicted on students is a method you are advocating.

What? Did you miss something out of the story?

 

[elephunky]

FYI I have been told by a child protection professional that verbal abuse can be just as damaging as physical abuse. Not that I consider smacking to necessarily be abuse.

 

[TheDag]

It's the only connection that's there to be made.

Wrong. It's the only connection you think there is to be made. The only thing that taught my son that pinching was wrong was to pinch him accompanied by an explanation. The explanation was the same stuff we had discussed previously. The sudden ceasing surprised childcare workers. Childcare workers are professionals and deal with heaps of kids so when they are surprised at something suddenly stopping rather than the normal slow decrease before stopping altogether I think that is worth noting.

Yes, but not to the same degree.

Either it is wrong to do something that causes that response or it isn't. your argument is like saying its ok to steal a chocolate bar because it isn't as bad as robbing a bank. Stealing is wrong just like causing long term harm is either wrong or not wrong.

You don't seem to get it. It's not that more physical force is actually used, but that the controlled blow comes from a position of greater potential force.

Sorry I did see this response in another post when I went back after posting this reply. In regards to this then we should take away power of police and just give them the same rights you and I have after all there is much greater potential force police have that I don't so if it is wrong to respond in a manner where greater potential force is a possibility then we better change that.

What? Did you miss something out of the story?

Nope. Point of the story was that using absolutely no force at all these teachers created same kinds of responses that anti-smacking advocates say makes smacking wrong.