The Book of Enoch

[yeshuasavedme]

Doesn't the Scriptures say that angels govern the elements?

After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth to prevent any wind from blowing on the land or on the sea or on any tree. Revelation 7:1

Still another angel, who had charge of the fire, came from the altar and called in a loud voice to him who had the sharp sickle, "Take your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of grapes from the earth's vine, because its grapes are ripe. Revelation 14:18

Then I heard the angel in charge of the waters say: "You are just in these judgments, O Holy One, you who are and who were; Revelation 16:5

Yes, and the lightnings answer God and the winds and waves obey His voice.
He calls all stars by name, and they obey Him.
and the Hebrew word ruwach is "spirit" and "wind"...
and God is the Father of all spirits. Every single created thing operates by the created spirit of the kind.
Hbr 12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

Plant a seed and put it on time lapse and watch the spirit of the kind carried in that germ of life fulfill the command of the creator and make a new "house"/plant, etc for that seed come to fruit in its kind to do what it was created to do, in.
Watch the spirits of the created kinds build a house for the kind come to fruit in the germinated seed in time lapse videos -beautiful examples of created spirits obeying the voice of the Creator
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4w04os447Mo

The spirit called "radish" creates a house for the germinated seed to fill up with its "spirit" stretched out in it, being what it was created to be.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d26AhcKeEbE



The KJV translates Strongs H7307 in the following manner: Spirit or spirit (232x), wind (92x),

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Psalm 148

1 Praise the Lord.

Praise the Lord from the heavens;
praise him in the heights above.
2 Praise him, all his angels;
praise him, all his heavenly hosts.
3 Praise him, sun and moon;
praise him, all you shining stars.
4 Praise him, you highest heavens
and you waters above the skies.

5 Let them praise the name of the Lord,
for at his command they were created,
6 and he established them for ever and ever—
he issued a decree that will never pass away.

7 Praise the Lord from the earth,
you great sea creatures and all ocean depths,
8 lightning and hail, snow and clouds,
stormy winds that do his bidding,
9 you mountains and all hills,
fruit trees and all cedars,
10 wild animals and all cattle,
small creatures and flying birds,
11 kings of the earth and all nations,
you princes and all rulers on earth,
12 young men and women,
old men and children.

13 Let them praise the name of the Lord,
for his name alone is exalted;
his splendor is above the earth and the heavens.
14 And he has raised up for his people a horn,
the praise of all his faithful servants,
of Israel, the people close to his heart.

Praise the Lord.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zWKm-LZWm4

 

[Jipsah]

The way the book of Enoch is written sounds as if it were written from the perspective of someone who's already read the scripture, and not someone who was first to prophesy

I was hoping I wasn't the only one who noticed that.

 

[Jipsah]

So, we are all supposed to go along with you on anything you say just because you said so?

I think that by your rules you have to do so unless you can cite Scripture that says he's in error.

 

[Gnarwhal]

I was hoping I wasn't the only one who noticed that.

Nope, you're not alone.

 

[Lion King]

I think that by your rules you have to do so unless you can cite Scripture that says he's in error.

Only if he claims to be a prophet.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

The Revelation of Jesus Christ given to John and written by John for us has its roots in the revelations of Enoch, in the Book of Enoch.
Firstly, the revelation of Jesus Christ given by John is the fulfilling of the prophecy of the Son of Man in heaven that Enoch wrote of, first.
Secondly, the things John wrote of for the end times were first written by Enoch, and the two, together, compliment one another.

Enoch saw the throne of God in heaven and the four presences around the throne, and named them. John saw them.

Enoch wrote of the battle of the last days and named the kings of the east whom the angels stir up, as the kings of the Medes and Persians. John called them the kings of the east, but Enoch named them.

Enoch said the blood of the slain on that coming day will be up to the chariot wheels of the horses. John said the blood will be as high as the horses bridles

Enoch saw the temple of God in heaven as built of cut crystals [diamonds] and pillars of fire. John saw the sea of crystal [I believe it is all cut diamonds/ crystals] before the throne mingled with fire.
Rev 15:2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

Rev 4:6 And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind.

Enoch 40:
The Four Presences
2And on the four sides of the Lord of Spirits I saw four presences, different from those that sleep not, and I learnt their names: for the angel that went with me made known to me their names, and showed me all the hidden things.
3And I heard the voices of those four presences as they uttered praises before the Lord of glory.
4The first voice blesses the Lord of Spirits for ever and ever.
5And the second voice I heard blessing the Elect One and the elect ones who hang upon the Lord of Spirits.
6And the third voice I heard pray and intercede for those who dwell on the earth and supplicate in the name of the Lord of Spirits.
7And I heard the fourth voice fending off the satans and forbidding them to come before the Lord of Spirits to accuse them who dwell on the earth.
8After that I asked the angel of peace who went with me, who showed me everything that is hidden: "Who are these four presences which I have seen and whose words I have heard and written down?"
9And he said to me: "This first is Michael, the merciful and long-suffering: and the second, who is set over all the diseases and all the wounds of the children of men, is Raphael: and the third, who is set over all the powers, is Gabriel: and the fourth, who is set over the repentance unto hope of those who inherit eternal life, is named Phanuel."
10And these are the four angels of the Lord of Spirits and the four voices I heard in those days.

Enoch makes it clear that the Ophannim are living spirits. Ezekiel saw the Ophannim, but because Enoch was lost to the translators, they translated the word as "wheel", in Ezekiel 1 & 10.

 

[WisdomTree]

Luther acted on his beliefs, and wrote his own Bible translation, and he shows that "canon" was not by consensus of all men of all the age of all the Church.

Granted, but it was the consensus of most.

 

[Gnarwhal]

Granted, but it was the consensus of most.

Correct. With the exception of the Ethiopian church, nobody else seemed to disagree with the canon. I've even heard fellow Protestants admit that Luther and/or other Protestants in the Reformation may have "over-corrected" when drumming up the 66-book canon. Not necessarily out of devious motives, but simply because they thought that everything was wrong, including the nature of the biblical canon.

 

[WisdomTree]

Correct. With the exception of the Ethiopian church, nobody else seemed to disagree with the canon. I've even heard fellow Protestants admit that Luther and/or other Protestants in the Reformation may have "over-corrected" when drumming up the 66-book canon. Not necessarily out of devious motives, but simply because they thought that everything was wrong, including the nature of the biblical canon.

Well Ethiopia is a bit out of the way when it comes to Imperial matters (later Catholic Church), thus communication with them would've been difficult (like Far Eastern Syrians and Indians), especially after the advent of Islam. Also to note, the Ethiopians is known to have manuscripts that the rest of us did not have hence the unique biblical canon.

 

[Lollerskates]

Too many parts of the book don't add up for me. Despite the angels leaving heaven to get married...There were other parts of the book that bothered me. I posted it earlier, but I'll share it again so you can see:




What spirits exist within nature? Spirit of mist? Of dew? And one should note that "hail" didn't exist before rain, so I'm having a problem with hail having it's own angel.

Well, the angels left their heavenly abode for reasons that may seem ridiculous to us, but I am inclined to believe it was a step in a campaign to overthrow the Most High off of the throne, and retain individual glory for themselves (i.e. creation.)

Spirits within nature? Why not? Spirit of mist? Why not? Elementals are common motifs of literature and mythology. Things that existing as pure fire, water, mist, smoke, rock, etc. have been throughout history. Art imitates life; these things came from somewhere. I don't see why the Most High couldn't designate an angel to "oversee" every single process in Creation.

And, who says hail can't come before rain? Scientists - aka humans? The same humans that only know of 1% of our oceans, but swear that they know the secrets of the universe [/hyperbole]? I have seen some inexplicable things in my lifetime; hail before rain is categorized as less than impressive to me.

But, I don't really see any of the specific qualms you state in the sections you quoted. Where did you get that particular section? Also, it sounds like "spirit" is being used as "essence," or "driving force," and not necessarily an angelic/spiritual being.

That said, I feel like there are too many parts that steal (yes, steal) from the prophetic books of Isaiah and Daniel. And Jesus wasn't the Son of man until after His incarnation. Calling Him the Son of Man pre-incarnation is totally incorrect.

Well, the "steal" part is an archeological issue. A lot of the Book of Enoch came from the dead sea scrolls, and other ancient texts. Perhaps Isaiah and Daniel gleaned from the book of Enoch? After all, the book of Enoch was part of the Hebrew canonup until the first century A.D. It was as common to the Hebrews as Genesis and Matthew is to the contemporary Christian.

The Son of Man issue is a paradox. Christ was the Son of God before He was son of man. But, Son of Man is more of a title of what He did - in the state He did it in - rather than an identity. It would be like calling Superman the "Man of Steel." His identity is Clark Kent/Superman, but Man of Steel is a descriptive title of his function(s) i.e. bullets bounce off of him. That title doesn't describe his flight, x-ray vision, etc. Likewise, son of man describes Christ's state when He executed the actions that gained us salvation. It doesn't describe His power as a creator, judge, defender, etc.

I said all that to say this: way back in the day [of Enoch,] it was no secret that God had a savior that would be born of humans - and provide us with saving grace and life again. That is why Christ was so upset people didn't recognize who He was - it was oral and written fact since Genesis 3:15. So, calling Christ the son of Man was a futurist descriptive term referring to the Christ, and His actions. Especially with Enoch being taken from earth dimension, there would have been no time distinction, so it wouldn't have been futurist to call Christ son of man.

There are other things as well that bother me, but like we've established, I'm not interested in arguing

I understand. I responded not to argue, but to give insight from my POV.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Well, the angels left their heavenly abode for reasons that may seem ridiculous to us, but I am inclined to believe it was a step in a campaign to overthrow the Most High off of the throne, and retain individual glory for themselves (i.e. creation.)

Spirits within nature? Why not? Spirit of mist? Why not? Elementals are common motifs of literature and mythology. Things that existing as pure fire, water, mist, smoke, rock, etc. have been throughout history. Art imitates life; these things came from somewhere. I don't see why the Most High couldn't designate an angel to "oversee" every single process in Creation.

And, who says hail can't come before rain? Scientists - aka humans? The same humans that only know of 1% of our oceans, but swear that they know the secrets of the universe [/hyperbole]? I have seen some inexplicable things in my lifetime; hail before rain is categorized as less than impressive to me.

But, I don't really see any of the specific qualms you state in the sections you quoted. Where did you get that particular section? Also, it sounds like "spirit" is being used as "essence," or "driving force," and not necessarily an angelic/spiritual being.




Well, the "steal" part is an archeological issue. A lot of the Book of Enoch came from the dead sea scrolls, and other ancient texts. Perhaps Isaiah and Daniel gleaned from the book of Enoch? After all, the book of Enoch was part of the Hebrew canonup until the first century A.D. It was as common to the Hebrews as Genesis and Matthew is to the contemporary Christian.

The Son of Man issue is a paradox. Christ was the Son of God before He was son of man. But, Son of Man is more of a title of what He did - in the state He did it in - rather than an identity. It would be like calling Superman the "Man of Steel." His identity is Clark Kent/Superman, but Man of Steel is a descriptive title of his function(s) i.e. bullets bounce off of him. That title doesn't describe his flight, x-ray vision, etc. Likewise, son of man describes Christ's state when He executed the actions that gained us salvation. It doesn't describe His power as a creator, judge, defender, etc.

I said all that to say this: way back in the day [of Enoch,] it was no secret that God had a savior that would be born of humans - and provide us with saving grace and life again. That is why Christ was so upset people didn't recognize who He was - it was oral and written fact since Genesis 3:15. So, calling Christ the son of Man was a futurist descriptive term referring to the Christ, and His actions. Especially with Enoch being taken from earth dimension, there would have been no time distinction, so it wouldn't have been futurist to call Christ son of man.





I understand. I responded not to argue, but to give insight from my POV.

The Bible does give insight on the nature/spirit of all created things. As I show in my earlier post, the spirit of each kind is "one" unique to the kind in all creation, and is the life force/nature that drives the seed of the kind to "be" what it is, to reproduce itself, and so on.

The same with the elemental forces of nature. they are created by the Creator to be what they are and to run the creation as they do. The winds are spirit, as the Bible shows, with the same Hebrew word translated spirit. The forces of nature are all created forces/spirits, and they obey the Creator to do what they were created to do.
God left nothing to "random chance", but made a perfect creation, and the forces of nature are His and they answer to Him, as we see in Job when God says "can you say to the lightnings, "go", and they answer you , "Here I am?".

Also, in Genesis 1 we see that the spirit of all kinds of the beasts of the earth were called forth from the earth, each with their own body according to the kind and each body a living breathing soul -but from the earth. When the created beasts called forth from the earth die, Ecclesiastes says they go down, to the earth, which is where they come from, so "mother earth", in that sense, holds the spirit of each kind called forth from the earth on day 6 of creation week; but the spirit of Adam is also one kind, with the male Adam and the female Adam made one spirit, in the beginning, as Malachi 2:15 says. We have a share of the Adam spirit when we come to fruit in the womb, which builds our house/body for our soul to live in, and that is called having a "residue/remnant, of the spirit, as Malachi 2:15 says; "Wherefore did He make them one/echad? -because He sought godly seed =sons of God.

The female built from the male Adam by the Creator was built with by a residue of the Adam spirit [Malachi 2:15], and she was then "bone of his bone, flesh of his flesh", and all Adam creation is "one blood", as the Word also says.

So each kind has a nature/spirit/force created to "drive" that kind to be what the Creator made it to be, in the beginning.

So also with the forces of nature. Each is its own kind, and each answers to the Creator.

 

[Mazock]

As Christians we are not to argue...To me, the fact that Enoch is mentioned in the bible Jude, Heb., 2 peter, gives it a greater validity than just as an apocryphal book..

Well, it certainly has more credibility than Joel Osteen's books

 

[Stryder06]

I was hoping I wasn't the only one who noticed that.

That makes two of us

 

[Stryder06]

Doesn't the Scriptures say that angels govern the elements?

After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth to prevent any wind from blowing on the land or on the sea or on any tree. Revelation 7:1

Still another angel, who had charge of the fire, came from the altar and called in a loud voice to him who had the sharp sickle, "Take your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of grapes from the earth's vine, because its grapes are ripe. Revelation 14:18

Then I heard the angel in charge of the waters say: "You are just in these judgments, O Holy One, you who are and who were; Revelation 16:5

No scripture does not say that. This is prophetic. Winds represent strife. Keeping the "winds" in check is keeping the world from falling into too much turmoil.

 

[Stryder06]

To whom was Jesus speaking when He said "Peace Be still!"

The wind and the sea

Every created thing is spirit/power/force, according to the Word of God,

Where does the word of God say so?

Witchcraft is the misuse of the created natures of the spirits, so as to to do evil. so witchcraft is dominion in a wrong way over the forces of creation.

That's incorrect. Man cannot harness the power of nature and misuse it. Too much Harry Potter for you.

The stars are angels/spirits/forces, and each has a name, and they are to do God's will. They control the forces of nature in the winds, the rains, the hail, and so on...they bring in the seasons.

Not so. You're misrepresenting what God said to Job. He essentially told Him, "Unless you can command the elements the way I can, don't question Me."

There are angels/spirits of the four winds, in the Word, who do the will of God.
There is the spirit of the water, in the word of God.
Winds, water, lightning, hail, snow, and so on and so forth -all were made by God, ordained to do their special tasks for man on earth, and all serve Him.

Where is the "spirit of the water" at in the word of God? If your only reference is Enoch, you're not helping yourself any.

Your assumption that hail did not exist before rain is not Bible doctrine.

It's not doctrine. It's natural law. Hail - pellets of frozen rain that fall in showers from cumulonimbus clouds.

Tell me how you can have hail without rain?
Gen 2:5,6 - And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the Lord God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground. But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.

 

[Stryder06]

Ish -Sar- El ="Israel" is the name of the Kinsman/Redeemer and His own name was invoked over Jacob as a sign of the adoption to come.
Yes, that name was secret until it was invoked over Jacob.

Again, says who? The Angel defines what the name means when it was given to Jacob. It doesn't mean what you say it does. It wasn't a secret.

And the Son of Man is God the Word in heaven, as seen by Enoch, as "Wisdom, God in mystery hidden, whom God ordained before the world unto our glory" -as Paul wrote, quoting from Enoch.

Again, incorrect. He wasn't the "Son of Man" preincarnation. Look at the term. How could He be the Son of Man if He hadn't yet become a man? That's simple logic. When Daniel saw Him he said that there was one like, i.e, having the appearance of, the Son of man.

And Daniel 7 says The Ancient of Days/Christ in His body of incarnation, ascended and glorified, is seen sitting on the throne and one like the son of man comes on the clouds before him, and that one like the son of man is the one New Man =the entire congregation of saints of the Most High, raptured, who approach Him on His throne and receive the kingdom from Him, to reign with Him.

Incorrect. The Ancient of Days is the Father. The one who was brought to Him is Christ pre-incarnate. Dominion is given to the Son in Daniel. There are a plethora of texts that echo this same sentiment.

Jesus is seated on the throne, having ransomed the kingdom, and He gives the kingdom to His saints which kingdom Adam lost, and which He ransomed back.
In Enoch, the particular wording is the Head of Days, in Daniel and in Revelation it is the Ancient of Days -same thing, but the one like the son of man is the Church, raptured.

Nope. Wrong again (in my rafiki voice).

Dan 7:16 I came near unto one of them that stood by, and asked him the truth of all this. So he told me, and made me know the interpretation of the things....
Dan 7:18 But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.

Indeed. The saints receive the kingdom after it is given to Christ.

 

[Stryder06]

You never address the fact that Enoch was in circulation and read and studied by those who wanted to study the prophets when the LORD Jesus walked the earth in His New Creation human being body. His womb brother, Jude, said" Enoch the prophet, the seventh from Adam" wrote, ....and Jude wrote from what he read in the book of Enoch, itself.

The Book of Enoch which was in circulation and read, as history proves.
Even portions of many different copies of the Book of Enoch discovered in the Qumran caves date to the 4th century BC, and that was only the dating of the materials used to copy the ancient Book of Enoch, which has been saved through time as much as any Book of the Bible, because we do not have one single copy of a book of the Bible dating to as early as those Enoch copies, other than one pretty complete copy of Isaiah discovered in the Qumran caves which the Enoch manuscript copies actually date older than!

It being in circulation does not give it any credibility. As I said before, the entirety of the text lends itself more to the idea that it was written after the bible, than before. It's formatted in a way where random quotes are thrown in to try to give it credibility.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

No scripture does not say that. This is prophetic. Winds represent strife. Keeping the "winds" in check is keeping the world from falling into too much turmoil.

Your opinion on wind is not backed by Scripture.
The Hebrew word for wind 92 times in the AV Bible translation is the same word translated spirit, so spirit and wind are one single word, in Hebrew, and the wind is "spirit" in the word, and the winds/spirits are directed by angels, in the Word. In Daniel, he saw the four spirits/winds strive upon the sea:
Dan 7:2 Daniel spake and said, I saw in my vision by night, and, behold, the four winds of the heaven strove upon the great sea.

In Revelation, four angels hold the four winds -they are the chiefs of them, as the Greek word denotes.

Rev 7:1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.


And everything God created is spirit, and obeys Him. Even the altar in heaven's temple speaks with a voice, and John heard it!

Rev 9:13 And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,


In the Song 148, the psalmist, writing in the anointing of the Holy Spirit, commands all the creation to praise the LORD:

The things above:

1 Praise the Lord.

Praise the Lord from the heavens;
praise him in the heights above.
2 Praise him, all his angels;
praise him, all his heavenly hosts.
3 Praise him, sun and moon;
praise him, all you shining stars.
4 Praise him, you highest heavens
and you waters above the skies.

5 Let them praise the name of the Lord,
for at his command they were created,
6 and he established them for ever and ever—
he issued a decree that will never pass away.


7 Praise the Lord from the earth,
you great sea creatures and all ocean depths,
8 lightning and hail, snow and clouds,
stormy winds that do his bidding,
9 you mountains and all hills,
fruit trees and all cedars,
10 wild animals and all cattle,
small creatures and flying birds,
11 kings of the earth and all nations,
you princes and all rulers on earth,
12 young men and women,
old men and children.

13 Let them praise the name of the Lord,
for his name alone is exalted;
his splendor is above the earth and the heavens.
14 And he has raised up for his people a horn,
the praise of all his faithful servants,
of Israel, the people close to his heart.

Praise the Lord.

and in Revelation, all creation does praise the LORD:
Rev 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
There is much more, but it seems that no one reads what is posted anyway, because they come back with the same opinions that are already refuted by the Word of God, again and again.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

And I do not watch Harry Potter, and you are slandering my person to claim that I do -and that is sinning against me, but I forgive you, though you did not ask, but you'll have to work it out with my heavenly Father yourself