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Gxg (G²);64426410 said:Indeed....
Context on what you noted makes a difference - as was discussed before in another thread pertaining to that very issue
Moreover, although I saw the thread dynamics and wasn't really planning on getting involved extensively, one can go here for more extensive information on the issue from the perspective of a Jewish individual who's Eastern Orthodox and married to a Melkite Catholic - as I appreciated her perspective.
Others I've greatly appreciated have been folks such as Fr. James Bernstein of the book "Surprised by Christ" in which he shares the experiences that led him to his conversions first from Judaism to Protestant Christianity, then to Orthodoxy under the Antiochian jurisdiction.....with the battles against anti-Semitism being real and yet later coming to understand just how much confusion there was in not properly understanding the Church Fathers (both in their struggles - as well as seeing them as reflections of the times they lived in) and seeing what the Church was meant to point to for the Jews.
There's also what's seen in how St. Vladimirs Seminary professor Dr. Peter Bouteneff reflects on his fascinating opportunity over 4 weeks in February of 2009 to address a Jewish congregation on the subject of Christians and Jews in the First 4 Centuries of our Era (from the podcast Sweeter than Honey by Dr. Peter Bouteneff ) - as noted here.
Seeing the thread, I've seen it said repeatedly by some that anyone supporting things within the NT is automatically against the concept of fulfillment - although I disagree for a number of reasons when seeing what was actually practiced within the Church itself.
For fulfillment being found in practices of Christianity isn't something opposite of appreciation for where something developed. You recognized things as shadows/previews of what's to come - but you don't HATE your shadow or divorce yourself from it like Peter Pan trying to catch his And in the same way, practices that were incomplete in the OT (because they were done in preview of who the Messiah was/what He'd do) don't cease to be valuable simply because of His arrival and what the Church went on to do......NO more than artifacts/relics (part of the heritage of a culture with high meaning) in a museum have to be destroyed because society has advanced past them. You recognize the past and appreciate the future it set up for you..
And when and if you want to utilize it, you don't do so assuming all aspects of it are superior to what has developed since it is incomplete. It's the same within Christianity. Jesus made it clear that He was the fulfillment of the Torah and Prophets (see Matthew 5:17-19), while the disciples recognized Him to be the one of whom Moses and the prophets spoke (see John 1:45; Acts 3:24-26). After His resurrection, the Lord said to His disciples, This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms (Luke 24:44), commissioning them to preach repentance and forgiveness of sins . . . in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem (Luke 24:47) - and yet within the history of the Church, you saw it where Jewish believers continued to celebrate their Jewish heritage the Lord gave them (i.e. circumcision, celebrating the Feasts/Festivals, Synagogue practice, etc.) - while you had Gentile Christians celebrate what the Lord had developed in them within Gentile culture....and other Gentiles who chose to live Jewish due to what the Spirit called them to.
And both seeing what occurred in the OT as a matter of Christ being present/previewing what was to come (one of the reasons why study of the Law was valuable when it came to knowing the concept of shadow pointing to SUBSTANCE in Christ - Colossians 2:16-18 Hebrews 8 Hebrews 10:1-3 )
All of it was working together to show the work of Jew and Gentile one in the Messiah - together for Him - and having different battles...knowing that only in Christ was true redemption present, while BOTH understood the reality of what it meant to be a part of God's Israel - the Church (Jew and Gentile) being the New Israel (contrasted with non-believing Israel that unsaved Jews were with)...
And in MANY parts of the Church, this is an everyday reality. We see this with the Ethiopian Orthodox in how they live out their lives and how they repeatedly practiced things....even celebrating on Saturday as well as Sunday as well as other customs(consistent with early Jewish practice - due in part to many who were Ethiopian Jews while also due to respecting the lifestyle of Jewish culture).....and thankfully, they have remained consistent in doing so with the example of the early Church since it's done in honor of the Lord/celebration of Him.
Theology itself in the Early Church doesn't lend itself to the idea to assume that anything pertaining to the OT was automatically within the negative and only that within the NT was good. That was something akin to the heresy of Marcionism which tried to divorce the God of the OT from the God of the NT in a false scenario ...but the Early Church valued OT practice (more shared here, here, here). ...one of the basic examples of that being seen in what occurred with Jewish Iconography in Ancient Synagogues being the template from which icons in the Early Church/Orthodoxy came to develop from....for anyone remotely aware of Ancient Jewish Icons....and there are other aspects to the issue as well (more shared in #88 / #15/ #214 ).
Of course, anything trying to impose that Gentiles HAVE to be akin to the Jews in how they live is something the Apostles/Jesus himself fought against (which was what was at stake with the Heresy of the Ebionites - #91 )...in the same way that they didn't cease being Jewish in practice since different churches had different battles (some having Gentiles ignore/disrespect the Jews in their lifestyle and others where Gentiles were being pressured to live as Jewish believers - both addressed in Romans 14-15 and Galatians 2-4 and Acts 11 and Acts 15 for more info).....and Paul having to note the reality of respect. The Early Church was very much Jewish in practice - and evolved over time in multiple respects when it coms to Orthodox practice...
And there were many complicated reasons for those developments - including the aspect of how other Church Fathers who were Jewish got forgotten in history .... Hegesippus coming to mind.. But as noted elsewhere...sadly, within many parts of Orthodoxy, it seems that there is a strong anti-Jewish sentiment that is neither truly what Orthodoxy is meant to be about - nor what the Early Church was ever meant to reflect........and that's something that is unfortunate, even though it is also understandable seeing that many were reacting against what they saw in Judaism when seeing how non-believing Jews were treating those who considered Christianity (i.e. persecuting Christians, selling them out to Romans to be destroyed, defaming Christ/slander, etc.) - with this not necessarily being what ALL unbelieving Jews were doing but a significant number nonetheless - and thus, they (i.e. many of the Fathers) reacted equally extreme by being against any/everything connected to Jewish practices which even the Lord was not ashamed of. And sadly, many of the Jewish Christians got caught in the cross-fire..
People are not infalliable - and neither were the Fathers, as amazing as they are and instructive for how we're to live our lives - but we can still understand where they were at and be thankful for them rather than dismissive.....and not understanding where they were coming from when it came to the very REAL threat of believers choosing to be swept into full-blown Judaism due to Jews seeking to gain converts from among the Christians (more shared in #13 ). For more scholarly study, there's an excellent work known as In the Shadow of the Temple: Jewish Influences on Early Christianity By Oskar Skarsaune (more shared here and here and here) - with there being many views among the people.
YES! I too was wondering if you were going to comment
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