Why did God create Lucifer with the pride or whatever it was that made him rebel?

Optimax

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That happened during or after the Incarnation of Christ. Clearly, Satan still had a place in heaven during the times of Job and Ahab...or do you think he had to be ejected from heaven twice?

The devil did have access again to heaven after Adam fell.

He gained that authority from Adam.
 
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Smidlee

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Interesting. Let us pursue that pov further.
What would you say to this: If what you say, that without free will very little in the Bible would make sense, what then of scriptures that relate that God is all knowing (omniscient=knowledgeable of all things unto infinity), and that all things that occur do so according to the predestination of them, according to the creator of all things will and plan.

I look forward to your thoughts. :)
I see many examples in scripture support the idea that man has free will with his actions but not the reactions of his actions. Man actions is according to his free will but the reactions of those actions are predestined by God.
Thus Satan was free to act against God but God is in full control of the reactions which He uses to fulfill His purpose. The book of
Esther you clearly see the free will of man in Mordecai, Esther and Haman but God predestined the ending. As Mordecai pointed out to Esther If she wouldn't act God would send someone else.
I do believe Paul replaced Judas. Both were strongly against Jesus doing their own thing but Judas didn't accept Jesus when he kissed him in betrayal and Jesus called him friend.
I also believe Job was a testimony against Satan as he was bless just like Job but turn his back against God in prosperity. The acts of Job will help condemn Satan on the day of judgement.
 
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yeshuasavedme

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You certainly have a "unique" view of this subject.

Satan was created as Lucifer.

Rebelled against God after convincing a third of the angels to follow him.

Was kicked out of heaven.

Isa 14:12-15

12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
KJV
Lucifer is not the name of any Satan, and the only man/Adam person who has attempted to ascend into heaven is Nimrod & Co, at the tower.

The king of Babylon is an Assyrian, a descendant of Nimrod and of Adam, and bears the curse of his ancestor Nimrod, and bears the curse of the one Adam spirit [death as a son of God and corruption of the flesh] until the controversy is settled [for us, it is settled at the Cross if we repent and believe] as we all bear the generational curses because of the particular sins of our father's -just as the Scripture says.

and that is just like the Pharaoh of Egypt in Ezekiel's time, who was under the generational curse of the Pharaoh of the Exodus, who said -under the influence of the dragon- to Moses, "Who is YHWH?. My River is my own and I have made it for myself".

zekiel 29

King James Version (KJV)
29 In the tenth year, in the tenth month, in the twelfth day of the month, the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,
2 Son of man, set thy face against Pharaoh king of Egypt, and prophesy against him, and against all Egypt:
3 Speak, and say, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I am against thee, Pharaoh king of Egypt, the great dragon that lieth in the midst of his rivers, which hath said, My river is mine own, and I have made it for myself.
4 But I will put hooks in thy jaws, and I will cause the fish of thy rivers to stick unto thy scales, and I will bring thee up out of the midst of thy rivers, and all the fish of thy rivers shall stick unto thy scales.
5 And I will leave thee thrown into the wilderness, thee and all the fish of thy rivers: thou shalt fall upon the open fields; thou shalt not be brought together, nor gathered: I have given thee for meat to the beasts of the field and to the fowls of the heaven.
6 And all the inhabitants of Egypt shall know that I am the Lord, because they have been a staff of reed to the house of Israel.
7 When they took hold of thee by thy hand, thou didst break, and rend all their shoulder: and when they leaned upon thee, thou brakest, and madest all their loins to be at a stand.
8 Therefore thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will bring a sword upon thee, and cut off man and beast out of thee.
9 And the land of Egypt shall be desolate and waste; and they shall know that I am the Lord: because he hath said, The river is mine, and I have made it.
10 Behold, therefore I am against thee, and against thy rivers, and I will make the land of Egypt utterly waste and desolate, from the tower of Syene even unto the border of Ethiopia.
The Pharaoh of the Exodus said that, many centuries before God spoke to the Pharaoh at the time of Ezekiel.
And Pharaoh turned to Moses and Aaron and said to them, I know not the Lord whom you have declared, neither will I send his people.
47

And they answered and said to the king, The Lord God of Gods is his name, and he proclaimed his name over us from the days of our ancestors, and sent us, saying, Go to Pharaoh and say unto him, Send my people that they may serve me.
48

Now therefore send us, that we may take a journey for three days in the wilderness, and there may sacrifice to him, for from the days of our going down to Egypt, he has not taken from our hands either burnt offering, oblation or sacrifice, and if thou wilt not send us, his anger will be kindled against thee, and he will smite Egypt either with the plague or with the sword.
49

And Pharaoh said to them, Tell me now his power and his might; and they said to him, He created the heaven and the earth, the seas and all their fishes, he formed the light, created the darkness, caused rain upon the earth and watered it, and made the herbage and grass to sprout, he created man and beast and the animals of the forest, the birds of the air and the fish of the sea, and by his mouth they live and die.
50

Surely he created thee in thy mother's womb, and put into thee the breath of life, and reared thee and placed thee upon the royal throne of Egypt, and he will take thy breath and soul from thee, and return thee to the ground whence thou wast taken.
51

And the anger of the king was kindled at their words, and he said to them, But who amongst all the Gods of nations can do this? my river is mine own, and I have made it for myself.
52

And he drove them from him, and he ordered the labor upon Israel to be more severe than it was yesterday and before.
53

And Moses and Aaron went out from the king's presence, and they saw the children of Israel in an evil condition for the task-masters had made their labor exceedingly heavy.
For the reason of generational curses, Daniel repented of the sins of his own fathers as if they were his own, when it was time to return to Israel, just as Moses said to do in Leviticus -our pattern for repentance of the sins of our fathers and to be cleansed of generational curses is in that:

38 And ye shall perish among the heathen, and the land of your enemies shall eat you up.
39 And they that are left of you shall pine away in their iniquity in your enemies' lands; and also in the iniquities of their fathers shall they pine away with them.
40 If they shall confess their iniquity, and the iniquity of their fathers, with their trespass which they trespassed against me, and that also they have walked contrary unto me;
41 And that I also have walked contrary unto them, and have brought them into the land of their enemies; if then their uncircumcised hearts be humbled, and they then accept of the punishment of their iniquity:
42 Then will I remember my covenant with Jacob, and also my covenant with Isaac, and also my covenant with Abraham will I remember; and I will remember the land.
43 The land also shall be left of them, and shall enjoy her sabbaths, while she lieth desolate without them: and they shall accept of the punishment of their iniquity: because, even because they despised my judgments, and because their soul abhorred my statutes.
The above is the principle of curses. Because of the Atonement, we can be free of the curses on us by being born in Adam, and free from those on us by being generationally cursed by the specific sins of our fathers -but we need to repent and confess the sins of our fathers to have the cleansing of the blood.


Anyway: in the passage you bring up, there is no way that satan was ever a cherub, he is not named lucifer, nor is he cast out of heaven -he is there still; nor have the third of the angels been cast out of heaven to earth -that comes in the tribulation.
Satan is many names in the Word, but never a holy angel, never anything other than the evil spirit in heaven and the Prince of Darkness [the Prince of the Lake of Fire]; but he can shapeshift, and pretend to be an angel of Light to deceive the gullible.




Cherubs have the face of an ox/cherub face, lion, Adam, and eagle. They have hooves like calves and hands like an Adam under their wings. Satan is called a twisted serpent, a dragon, Leviathan, but never lucifer, never a light bearer and never, ever, a holy angel!

God rebukes and mocks an Adam person, and holds him guilty for Adam's sin as an Adam person, and for Nimrod's sin af attempting to exalt his throne above the angels of God, as a descendant of Nimrod.

-I used to think that particular Pharaoh of the Exodus was referring to the Nile, as a river made from dams? -but long since, I learned that there was a "Suez" Canal before there was a modern Suez Canal -and that is the "River" Pharaoh made "for himself" -a great wonder:)
 
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RDKirk

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The devil did have access again to heaven after Adam fell.

He gained that authority from Adam.

Adam did not have access to heaven ever. Satan didn't fall twice, he only fell once, and that--as Revelation 12 shows--was in the church age.

The Isaiah passage is prophesy not history.

Up until Jesus' temptation in the wilderness, Satan had kept his place. The wilderness temptation represented his first actual rebellion against God, the first time he tried to be like the Most High--which only became feasible when the Son became incarnate.
 
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Rev Randy

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Adam did not have access to heaven ever. Satan didn't fall twice, he only fell once, and that--as Revelation 12 shows--was in the church age.

The Isaiah passage is prophesy not history.

Up until Jesus' temptation in the wilderness, Satan had kept his place. The wilderness temptation represented his first actual rebellion against God, the first time he tried to be like the Most High--which only became feasible when the Son became incarnate.

I'm still attempting to understand the authority aspect.:confused:
 
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RDKirk

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I'm still attempting to understand the authority aspect.:confused:

Which authority aspect?

Adam's dominion was only over creation. Whatever authority Satan could steal from Adam could extend no more than that which Adam had been given by God.

Satan claimed to have authority over earthly nations--that is, the political-economic systems, not the planet itself--and Jesus did not dispute that. It's not a great thing to argue from silence, but it's possible Satan did have authority over that which he claimed.

If you haven't yet, try getting a copy of Anne Rice's "Christ the Lord: The Road to Cana." Her narrative of Jesus' wilderness temptation is riveting. The woman is an excellent novelist.
 
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RDKirk

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Where did I say that Adam had access to heaven?

Originally Posted by Optimax
The devil did have access again to heaven after Adam fell.

He gained that authority from Adam.

Adam had no access to heaven.

How could Satan gain authority from Adam that Adam did not have?
 
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Rev Randy

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Which authority aspect?

Adam's dominion was only over creation. Whatever authority Satan could steal from Adam could extend no more than that which Adam had been given by God.

Satan claimed to have authority over earthly nations--that is, the political-economic systems, not the planet itself--and Jesus did not dispute that. It's not a great thing to argue from silence, but it's possible Satan did have authority over that which he claimed.

If you haven't yet, try getting a copy of Anne Rice's "Christ the Lord: The Road to Cana." Her narrative of Jesus' wilderness temptation is riveting. The woman is an excellent novelist.
The aspect optimax spoke of.
 
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yeshuasavedme

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Adam did not have access to heaven ever. .
Eden is in the heavenly realm of earth.

Paradise, the Garden of God, is in the third heaven, where the Tree of Life is.
Paradise is in Eden.
Paradise is in the third heaven.
Eden is in the third heaven.

Adam was taken and set in Paradise, the Garden of God, where the Tree of Life is in the midst.

Eden is a Mountain.
It is the Mountain of God.

Adam was cast down from the third heaven to earth below.

The heavens were stretched out from earth on day 2 of creation week, and stretched out between the divided waters of creation.
Half the waters of creation are above the stretched out heavens, and half on earth beneath.


Everything I wrote above is in the Word of God.
 
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Messy

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Lucifer is not the name of Satan nor is it a proper noun in the Hebrew -ask the Jewish Rabbi's, they willl tell you.
This is a Christian myth.

Satan was created as an evil spirit and there is an entire class of them in heaven. His evil is perfection as to his being, for he was created to do God's work and he does it well and he has his rewards a-coming.
His rewards? Being punished in the lake of fire for all eternity, nice reward.
So God created an evil spirit. You have to be evil yourself to even think about creating something like that. God is not yin yang. He's Light and in Him there is no darkness at all. How can Light create darkness or even invent it?
 
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HIM_In_Me_In_HIM

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Well...that's enough for me. Did I wander into unorthodox theology. Kinda thought I was avoiding that place.

...."anything goes" in general heresy, till the mod squad shows up.

Anything Goes Cole Porter With lyrics wmv - YouTube

Please take note of the lyrics and consider well if it doesn't apply generally/specifically to both the "church age" we're in as well as the secular world. (or perhaps your own "little-world" as well? Selah?!)
 
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RDKirk

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His rewards? Being punished in the lake of fire for all eternity, nice reward.
So God created an evil spirit. You have to be evil yourself to even think about creating something like that. God is not yin yang. He's Light and in Him there is no darkness at all. How can Light create darkness or even invent it?

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. -- Genesis 1



Notice that darkness existed.

Light is a thing, a created thing--made up of protons. Darkness is the absence of light--it needs no creation, it is simply the absence of light.

God is spiritual light, and spiritual darkness is the absence of God.
 
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HIM_In_Me_In_HIM

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His rewards? Being punished in the lake of fire for all eternity, nice reward.
So God created an evil spirit. You have to be evil yourself to even think about creating something like that. God is not yin yang. He's Light and in Him there is no darkness at all. How can Light create darkness or even invent it?

oh how much (ahem...) 'WE' all have to learn from H>S> revelation(s) in our lives.
In this servant-sons experience, there seems to be many (too many) children "who die for lack of knowledge." H>S> keeps this son, honest/humble (re: 'knowledge') by always reminding him of the "mirror-light-effect" (broken glass at the laver-bottom..."now we see thru the glass darkly" {<-- hint hint 4 any 'mature'} of the laver {at the foreshadowing temple as it pertains to our "temple"} as well as the application of the laver's water {the cleansing water of the Word, washing us 'clean'}.)
And even so....what this servant son "thinks" he understands is always (somewhat) subject to "change" (as in, "go deeper" son/daughter) despite Christian "folks" who love to whip out the "The LORD does not change" scriptures that "prove" their POV (or so they think/believe).

Many many yrs ago, this servant son "got torched" in spiritual warfare re: "Lucifer addition" to the OT on (Isa 14:12; by Jerome, look it up if u are Real Christian, not lazy, and care not to 'inflict harm' on others, be they "believers" or "un-b's") as there was a connection to same word in Peter 2:19 (daystar, Lucifer, depending on bible version u read) thereby connecting ha'satan/Lucifer to our lovely messiah, Jesus Christ.

This servant son cannot begin to describe for u the mental & yes, physical pain/anguish he went thru for weeks that seemed like yrs, all tks to 1. someone elses "error"; 2. his own "hunger" for truth, digging for it, but "falling for" ...3. the devils "trick(s)" re: attacking u by either a.) questioning/fouling up your "identity in Jesus" or ...b.) questioning/fouling up Jesus' wholesome/perfect/begotten "identity" and YOUR connection to Him, as it were. (basically, screwed both ways, u dig?)
All leading to a "wilderness period" (cliché or reality-experience o' reader?) that one soberly consider always, of a continual/seasonal nature, "this life" perhaps?

Perhaps some here have heard/read the cliché "the devil can quote scripture too"? Too many have no idea how well, how much, how often, this is true. Martin Luther learned how much, when he wrote the words "I am no beast..." Many a well trained/"seasoned" pastor, knows of what this son, speaks/writes. Yet too many do not.

H>S> has "prompted" this son to share his (short version, believe that!) story/experience with all here for the purposes of:
- be careful/sober/loving in what u say/write for reasons u already "know" or shall come to "know," (with the emphasis on loving, but to whom loving ultimately?...selah?!) all via H>S> power/revelation.
- do not be quick to dismiss, disregard what others lovingly write/share with u, as it may benefit u (& your circles of influence) immediately or later on in 'your' journey/learning.
- become totally dependent upon H>S> guidance/teaching/leading in your speaking/writings; NOT what u think/believe; <--for this/that is one of many forms of blah, blah, blah, blasphemy (!) visa vie baa, ba, (baal/ba'al?) Babylon (!) (<--"has fallen, is fallen" selah?!)
- u shall be known by your "fruit," your word(s), or lack of, as case may be. H>S> speaks, teaches, exalts, bears witness to Jesus. H>S> "convicts" which is far different that "condemns." H>S> is "rooting it (condemns/condemnation & all that "sniffs" of it) out" of this servant son's vocab. Let us all pray/ask for this "blessing."


So wrapping this all up, & zoning in again on OP's orig "Q" (see above title if forgotten) from what H>S> has prompted this servant son to write:
There is no "Lucifer" as added to OT; it DOES matter for it calls into question the honest, perfect, accuracy of the bible, leaving "doubts" to those who discover [any] error &/via the acceptance by "Christians" who pooh-pooh it when shown it; as well as the dangerous, pseudo "connection" aforementioned (to Jesus, see above); as well as leading to imaginary tales/stories, books, movies (!) that flow from this "error," some of which have appeared here on CF thread(s); which in turn leads to these "rules:"
[For those who now read all this posts' words are no longer "ignorant" but "responsible" for the 'knowledge.']

1. keep the focus (<--important u "get this pt" please-->) on JESUS! (as much as humanly possible with H>S> power-help, of course)
[NOT...ha'satan dictating focus on/to you/us (?) in your/our life/mind] Paul alluded to this in his epistles in re: to Jesus' gospel reigning over any disputes/fairy tales via (ahem..) "casting down of imaginations" etc.

2. In discussing "pride" or the wiley ways of our "adversary" be it from within or without.....
Our lives' mission/battle/statement/energies/etc., should be CENTERED WITHIN OUR focus only/always ON JESUS dominating it ALL as He alone/best/perfectly displayed OUR ABBA in HIS ["...fullness in GOD"] fullness during His incarnation-time as a human-being, not satan.
FOCUS on Jesus. Focus on JESUS! (not satan, not yourself, etc.) Can't remember too many rules? Remember rule #1 then.

3. And/Or....think you're losing your problem/battle with the "enemy?" Could be u need to review rule #2.
Still no solution/victory? Go back (frame it, wallpaper it, do what u have to do) to rule #1, then.


***Smith Wigglesworth once told of waking one time and seeing satan at the foot of his bed. His (Smiths') response? "oh its you again." and he turned over in bed & went back to sleep. (SELAH !!)***


And if words don't move u, let worship music do so:
"Turn Your Eyes Upon Jesus" By Michael W. Smith - YouTube

Yeshua's Shalom upon u, whosoever/wherever u are! :prayer:
 
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ChristsSoldier115

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If we're going this questions route, why did God let Noah survive the flood if he knew man was going to go back to his wicked ways like 10 generations later?
Either God doesn't have omniscience or the fact we DON'T have omniscience so we can't grasp His logic or ever understand it. I go with the latter.
 
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Optimax

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Adam had no access to heaven.

How could Satan gain authority from Adam that Adam did not have?

Again you are reading something I did say.

What I said was that Adam had authority.

He was given authority by God.

Notice that God gave authority over the listed things in verse 26.

Gen 1:26
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. KJV

Notice that God gave dominion (authority) to Adam over all the earth.

Satan gained the authority over the kingdoms of the earth from Adam.
 
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Messy

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In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. -- Genesis 1



Notice that darkness existed.

Light is a thing, a created thing--made up of protons. Darkness is the absence of light--it needs no creation, it is simply the absence of light.

God is spiritual light, and spiritual darkness is the absence of God.
Yes, because he fell and took the old world in his fall.
The Bible, Genesis & Geology
I don't believe that God, who is Light created the heavens and earth in the evening of day one when everything was dark. Between Genesis 1 verse 1 and 2 can be billions of years and they found evidence for that in the ground.
 
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