Mark Driscoll 'Crashes' John MacArthur's Strange Fire Conference?

[Biblicist]

So, now I am wondering what lasting good this senseless confrontation accomplished. Was anybody saved, fed, clothed, encouraged, edified? Except for providing another publicity stage for the principals and, maybe, proving that someone was right and the other was wrong, I can’t see much else was achieved.

If Driscoll’s attempt to enter into the conference had the result of demonstrating that the underling purpose of the conference, which was to undermine the work and person of the Holy Spirit was a fraud, then I would say that Driscoll with one stroke, may have been able to help many of our less than astute brothers and sisters (and the rest) to realise that what MacArthur, Sproul and others were promoting was nothing less than a false humanist gospel.

In post #54 Andrea411 mentioned that she was unable to find any secular references to the event so I gather that the secular media has left it alone. If I had not seen some earlier references to this worldly conference in this forum, as it was organised by MacArthur, then I really wonder if I would have taken notice of it when the online Christian magazines made mention of it – as I’ve mentioned before, for me, MacArthur is simply a bit of a yawn so I doubt if I would have bothered clicking on the articles heading for any more info.

So hopefully, his presence, which may have only been outside of the conference building has had an impact, along with the numerous articles by Pentecostals and charismatic commentators which have pointed out MacArthurs dishonesty with the purpose of the event.

 

[tulipbee]

What does this have to do with anything? I attend a Charismatic Church and I can assure you there is no head-banging going on during the worship service or any other part of the service...

I didn't say anything about head- banging. Where did that come from?

 

[JimB]

If Driscoll’s attempt to enter into the conference had the result of demonstrating that the underling purpose of the conference, which was to undermine the work and person of the Holy Spirit was a fraud, then I would say that Driscoll with one stroke, may have been able to help many of our less than astute brothers and sisters (and the rest) to realise that what MacArthur, Sproul and others were promoting was nothing less than a false humanist gospel.

In post #54 Andrea411 mentioned that she was unable to find any secular references to the event so I gather that the secular media has left it alone. If I had not seen some earlier references to this worldly conference in this forum, as it was organised by MacArthur, then I really wonder if I would have taken notice of it when the online Christian magazines made mention of it – as I’ve mentioned before, for me, MacArthur is simply a bit of a yawn so I doubt if I would have bothered clicking on the articles heading for any more info.

So hopefully, his presence, which may have only been outside of the conference building has had an impact, along with the numerous articles by Pentecostals and charismatic commentators which have pointed out MacArthurs dishonesty with the purpose of the event.

If Driscoll walked on water every morning just to get his morning paper or raised the dead in funeral parlors, I still would not approve of his actions nor would I want to follow his example. The best proof of Driscoll’s claims would be to do them, not crash someone’s party with an agenda. The gifts were not given to us to debate, but to use; they are like tools to help build the kingdom. Instead, Driscoll and Macarthur are like two carpenters arguing over which hammer is the best, Stanley claw hammers or DeWalt ball peens. Arguing over whose hammer is best never nailed anything and never got anyone's hands dirty. We need to do the stuff in the marketplace, not quarrel about it in a classroom (or at a conference). At least was that Jesus’ and the Apostle’s way. They did not demonstrate with symbolic gestures, they did it with power— “my speech and my preaching were not with persuasive words of human wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power.” Spiritual power is not given to us to be debated but to be used.

IOW, Don’t tell me what you believe, show me.

 

[Biblicist]

If Driscoll walked on water every morning just to get his morning paper or raised the dead in funeral parlors, I still would not approve of his actions nor would I want to follow his example. . .

As this is your position on this type of behaviour then who am I to say that you are wrong, you simply have to do what you believe is the right thing to do.

The best proof of Driscoll’s claims would be to do them, not crash someone’s party with an agenda. The gifts were not given to us to debate, but to use; they are like tools to help build the kingdom.

I seem to recall that Jesus wasn’t overly impressed with the ‘party’ that the Jews were holding in his Fathers temple so he marched right in and upset their apple (money) carts. We could take Luthers example where he marched up to the front door of the Roman Catholic cathedral and pinned his objections to their immoral behaviour and shoddy doctrine on their front door, though this could be a problem today as we would probably have to use blue-tack and the paper would probably end up getting stuck in the automatic sliding doors.

Was Driscolls attempt to enter into that worldly conference any different to those churches who hold stalls at the various New Age conferences? Though I acknowledge that they have followed due process in that they will be required to register their intention to do so.

Instead, Driscoll and Macarthur are like two carpenters arguing over which hammer is the best, Stanley claw hammers or DeWalt ball peens. Arguing over whose hammer is best never nailed anything and never got anyone's hands dirty.

Well…with this one I would say that Driscolls concerns are addressing the very core of the Gospel in that he is objecting to the way in which MacArthur and his mates are disparaging the work and person of the Holy Spirit – we are now talking about life and death issues.

We need to do the stuff in the marketplace, not quarrel about it in a classroom (or at a conference). At least was that Jesus’ and the Apostle’s way. They did not demonstrate with symbolic gestures, they did it with power— “my speech and my preaching were not with persuasive words of human wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power.” Spiritual power is not given to us to be debated but to be used.

With regard to my earlier reference to Luther, from what I can tell in the New Testament, Jesus and the Apostles were certainly prepared to challenge the status quo whenever and wherever it was required to do so. As for Paul, he seemed to engage head-on with everyone from the synagogue through to the market place.

As I mentioned earlier, you can only follow your own conscience and as you feel that this type of behaviour is not appropriate then you have made the right decision in that you are following your conscience on this particular issue.

 

[Stone Butterfly]

Mark Driscoll at the Strange Fire Conference - YouTube

Mark Driscoll gifted his books. They were not confiscated.

 

[Biblicist]

Mark Driscoll gifted his books. They were not confiscated.

Thanks for that video though I found a few parts a bit hard to understand as the audio was a bit unclear. It does seem that Driscoll and the security team both did a good job and of course the security boys were simply doing the job that they were being paid to do.

As much as the security team siezed or removed Driscolls books from wherever he left them, we can certainly understand why they would not want anyone to leave any Biblically based material on hand for the conference attendees to come across - especially from someone like Driscoll who had a far better knowledge of the subject than did the conference speakers.

 

[Stone Butterfly]

As much as the security team siezed or removed Driscolls books from wherever he left them,

I don't think you get it. The point of that video, that had subtitles at key points, proves the security team did not sieze Driscoll's books. Driscoll gifted them to grace!

This is a different video link, turn up the volume so you can hear.
The security team did not seize these books!

Mark Driscoll at the Strange Fire Conference - YouTube

This means that when Mark Driscoll says the security team seized his books that he's lying! That wouldn't reflect a higher knowledge of grace, God, scripture, or moral character. Especially if he presumes to think he's of a better standard than those who organized this conference he thought to crash.

 

[Biblicist]

I don't think you get it. The point of that video, that had subtitles at key points, proves the security team did not sieze Driscoll's books. Driscoll gifted them to grace!

This is a different video link, turn up the volume so you can hear.
The security team did not seize these books!

This means that when Mark Driscoll says the security team seized his books that he's lying! That wouldn't reflect a higher knowledge of grace, God, scripture, or moral character. Especially if he presumes to think he's of a better standard than those who organized this conference he thought to crash.

I think that you might be failing to understand that the security team did in fact sieze or remove Driscolls books and of course they were legally entitled to do so, which undoubtedly Driscoll would agree with. In fact I would be greatly surprised if Driscoll ever thought that they would dare leave them within the conference precinct. All he was trying to do was to make a statement which he certainly succeeded in doing.

The plus side of Driscoll attempting to make a stand for Biblical truth is that many cessationists would have been compelled to take a deeper look into the false teachings of the conference; so Driscolls cheeky inroad into this worldly venue has undoubtedly achieved a fair amount of fruit.

I wonder if his books were put into the nearest bin or if the security team were able to sneak a few copies for their own reading.

 

[JimB]

*****

As I mentioned earlier, you can only follow your own conscience and as you feel that this type of behaviour is not appropriate then you have made the right decision in that you are following your conscience on this particular issue.

Best response yet!!




.

 

[Stone Butterfly]

I don't side with a minister disrupting another pastors conference so as to get publicity for his book. How would Driscoll like it if a pastor did the same to his church? Walked in during a Sunday sermon with arm fulls of his new book and offered them for sale to people in the pews? A book that contradicted Driscoll's teachings?
Would that show respect in the house of God?

And no, they don't have the right to confiscate and keep Driscoll's books. That's theft. They can confiscate because he didn't go through the proper vetting channels. But they have to give them back to him or else they can be charged for stealing his books.

"Driscoll’s claim is being disputed.
Rich Gregory, assistant to John MacArthur, said he was there when it happened and that Driscoll’s books were not confiscated and there was nothing confrontational.
“It was great, we were happy to have him at the conference. He brought books to hand out. We explained to him that all the books distributed on campus need to be approved. He told us that he wanted them to be a gift to us from him. One of our conference directors took that gift and brought them up to the offices. If you hear from him and he wants them back, we can send those back if he wants them. We were not looking at him like, ‘Boy you’re trying to stir up controversy.’ I don’t want to judge his motives for what he wasn’t trying to do. I wish they had actually stayed for the actual content of the conference.”
A call to Mars Hill has not been returned.
Both pastors have new books they are promoting."
October 18, 2013 RNS John MacArthur vs. Mark Driscoll: Megachurch pastors clash over charismatic theology

I think that you might be failing to understand that the security team did in fact sieze or remove Driscolls books and of course they were legally entitled to do so, which undoubtedly Driscoll would agree with. In fact I would be greatly surprised if Driscoll ever thought that they would dare leave them within the conference precinct. All he was trying to do was to make a statement which he certainly succeeded in doing.

The plus side of Driscoll attempting to make a stand for Biblical truth is that many cessationists would have been compelled to take a deeper look into the false teachings of the conference; so Driscolls cheeky inroad into this worldly venue has undoubtedly achieved a fair amount of fruit.

I wonder if his books were put into the nearest bin or if the security team were able to sneak a few copies for their own reading.

 

[Andrea411]

If Driscoll walked on water every morning just to get his morning paper or raised the dead in funeral parlors, I still would not approve of his actions nor would I want to follow his example. The best proof of Driscoll’s claims would be to do them, not crash someone’s party with an agenda. The gifts were not given to us to debate, but to use; they are like tools to help build the kingdom. Instead, Driscoll and Macarthur are like two carpenters arguing over which hammer is the best, Stanley claw hammers or DeWalt ball peens. Arguing over whose hammer is best never nailed anything and never got anyone's hands dirty. We need to do the stuff in the marketplace, not quarrel about it in a classroom (or at a conference). At least was that Jesus’ and the Apostle’s way. They did not demonstrate with symbolic gestures, they did it with power— “my speech and my preaching were not with persuasive words of human wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power.” Spiritual power is not given to us to be debated but to be used.

IOW, Don’t tell me what you believe, show me.

IDK if any good came from Driscoll's actions but I do agree with you... an all out slugfest bt them would be unworthy of Christ. It might just be best to let the Lord deal with JM and we can deal with the issues brought up in our private churches and address the them without going public to the unbelieving world. I can not see where that in any way glorifies Christ. I think it was very wrong of JM to make this conference so public... he could have had open conferences in any number of churches and addressed these concerns with Charismatic leaders. No one would have thought much about our doctrinal differences but by using that forum he has made the church vulnerable to much criticism.
Of course it wouldn't have the publicity and sell books.... hmmmm. Same with Driscoll... why didn't he go into the conference and wait for an opportunity to speak... and if none arose his presence would have spoke for itself.
God bless, andrea

 

[hislegacy]

If Driscoll walked on water every morning just to get his morning paper or raised the dead in funeral parlors, I still would not approve of his actions nor would I want to follow his example. The best proof of Driscoll’s claims would be to do them, not crash someone’s party with an agenda. The gifts were not given to us to debate, but to use; they are like tools to help build the kingdom. Instead, Driscoll and Macarthur are like two carpenters arguing over which hammer is the best, Stanley claw hammers or DeWalt ball peens. Arguing over whose hammer is best never nailed anything and never got anyone's hands dirty. We need to do the stuff in the marketplace, not quarrel about it in a classroom (or at a conference). At least was that Jesus’ and the Apostle’s way. They did not demonstrate with symbolic gestures, they did it with power— “my speech and my preaching were not with persuasive words of human wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power.” Spiritual power is not given to us to be debated but to be used.

IOW, Don’t tell me what you believe, show me.

 

[Biblicist]

I don't side with a minister disrupting another pastors conference so as to get publicity for his book. How would Driscoll like it if a pastor did the same to his church? Walked in during a Sunday sermon with arm fulls of his new book and offered them for sale to people in the pews? A book that contradicted Driscoll's teachings?

As far as I can tell, I don’t really think that Driscoll was walking down the aisles offering books to those in the pews; I think that you might be trying to employ a bit of theatrical licence – though I could half imagine seeing Driscoll doing something like that.

Now if MacArthur were to walk into a Full Gospel conference (which would be a hoot) where he wanted to offer his books “as a gift”, then I suspect that he would be warmly welcomed and hopefully he would be offered a comfortable seat so that he could finally hear what the Word of God has to say regarding the person and ministry of the Holy Spirit; now that I think about it, wouldn’t it be great if he brought along R.C. Sproul as he seems to be just as confused as MacArthur. Of course, if he felt uncomfortable in this type of environment we could always grab a Sunday school teacher who could quietly explain the Word of God to him.

Would that show respect in the house of God?

That could be a bit of a problematic term here on this forum, I appreciate that there were some believers present, but I think that some of us could struggle with defining a new-age conference that is essentially been established to denigrate the person of the Holy Spirit as being “a house of God”. I mentioned to JimB that if some feel that his actions were inappropriate then so be it, but for me, when I see a well-known ministry making a gentle though cheeky stand for the Word of God and Biblical integrity, then I really find it a bit hard to criticise this type of action. In some ways it’s probably little different to how Paul used to go into the local synagogues to share with those who had not yet heard God’s Word correctly; but every case would undoubtedly have to be treated on its merits.

And no, they don't have the right to confiscate and keep Driscoll's books. That's theft. They can confiscate because he didn't go through the proper vetting channels. But they have to give them back to him or else they can be charged for stealing his books.

Even though I must purchase of copy of Driscolls new book (my first of his), if he or anyone else were to leave some unsolicited books within someone else’s conference then they would be in their right to remove and dispose of them. There may be different requirements in play depending on local laws, but here in Australia if this was done, particularly within a hired venue then no-one would be complaining if they were disposed of after the event – and I have no doubt that Driscoll would probably expect little else.

Hey, I see that you are not only a cessationist but also a KJO person, I haven’t met one of these here in Australia for a couple of decades.

 

[tulipbee]

I didn't know Driscoll is spirit filled Charismatic. I thought he was reformed. My guess is that Driscoll is the opposite of Macarthur. What denomination is Driscoll and Macarthur?

 

[AndOne]

Driscoll is Calvinist and Charismatic. Mac is Calvinist and cessationist.

 

[Dusky Mouse]

Even though I must purchase of copy of Driscolls new book (my first of his), if he or anyone else were to leave some unsolicited books within someone else’s conference then they would be in their right to remove and dispose of them. There may be different requirements in play depending on local laws, but here in Australia if this was done, particularly within a hired venue then no-one would be complaining if they were disposed of after the event – and I have no doubt that Driscoll would probably expect little else.

[/quote]
The video that is posted in this thread pages back shows that Driscoll brought the books in boxes to the venue. But when he was approached by security who said they were going to help return them to Driscoll's car, Driscoll told them he'd rather gift the books to grace. I.E. let the minister and his church keep them as a free gift.

In the States if you mail unsolicited material to someone or leave it on their private property, i.e. their car, or at their house, they are permitted to keep it without paying for it.
If someone brings items with them to sell at another parties event, like this conference for instance, security may say they're seizing it but they have to return it to the owner in the reciprocal(s) and condition in which it was seized.
If those materials were left about in the conference area, like books laid on empty chairs, then it is the same rule about the freebie due to being unsolicited.

 

[AndOne]

I didn't say anything about head- banging. Where did that come from?

"Head-banging" is the term that I used to describe whatever it was you were describing in your post. That doesn't happen in my church bro.

 

[hislegacy]

Now if MacArthur were to walk into a Full Gospel conference (which would be a hoot) where he wanted to offer his books “as a gift”, then I suspect that he would be warmly welcomed and hopefully he would be offered a comfortable seat so that he could finally hear what the Word of God has to say regarding the person and ministry of the Holy Spirit;

First, I don't support MacArthur - I think he is skewed on many different levels - that said:

First, I think he is too much of a gentleman to walk into another ministers meeting. While he is consistent and verbose on his views, he has never actively approached anyone outside of his own camp. Something that can be applauded.

Second, just look at the animosity towards him on display here: Do you honestly think he would be warmly welcomed?

I seriously doubt it.

Shame on us.

I still think he is a false teacher of the work of the Holy Spirit today and do not agree with him, but he is one of the best OT expositors I have ever heard

 

[Biblicist]

First, I don't support MacArthur - I think he is skewed on many different levels - that said:

First, I think he is too much of a gentleman to walk into another ministers meeting. While he is consistent and verbose on his views, he has never actively approached anyone outside of his own camp. Something that can be applauded.

As for MacArthur being a gentleman, I think that this could be better rephrased by saying that he knows how to use a bit of spin and he does seem to be fairly careful with his public image - in much the same way as many other celebrities try and do. When it comes to his frequent caustic remarks about Pentcostals and charismatics, personally, I think that in this regard he simply comes across as being a rather ignorant and arogant individual who is more concerned about his own self interests than with anything else.

For me, I find it rather hard to have too many warm and fuzzy feelings toward any individual who has spent so much of his time with undermining not only the Church of God but with ensuring that Believers are kept away from embracing the fullness of the Spirit.

Second, just look at the animosity towards him on display here: Do you honestly think he would be warmly welcomed?

I seriously doubt it.
Shame on us.

I have absolutely no doubt that he would be warmly welcomed into any Full Gospel conference as would R.C. Sproul and any other well known commentator who attempts to keep the Church in bondage to the old relic of cessationism. For that matter I'm sure that the Dali Lama and the Pope would be warmly received as well - and why wouldn't they.

I still think he is a false teacher of the work of the Holy Spirit today and do not agree with him, but he is one of the best OT expositors I have ever heard.

The Old Testament is certainly a realm where people such as MacArthur and the liberal scholarly community can excel in as it tends to be a safer area of investigation. When it comes to the far more difficult and problematic New Testament, this is where a believer shows where they stand and unfortunately for MacArthur his understanding of the Gospel and his woeful understanding of the person and ministry of the Holy Spirit means that he sadly causes more harm than good within the Body of Christ.

Most importantly, MacArthur has shown his true colours with his conference in that he had no intention of simply trying to correct some of the excesses and abuses that we see within Pentecost, his goal was to simply attack and undermine the believers who are either Pentecostal or charismatic. If nothing else, his 'conference' has certainly allowed many to better understand his true motivations.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

"Don't let anyone ever say Driscoll isn't an opportunist"

Then him and Mac should understand each other pretty well.