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marc32123
Guest
If Lucifer decided to rebel, couldn't it only have been because God created him with the pride or whatever it was that made him want to?
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No. It was not because God created him with pride. God made him a marvel to behold. Strong, smart , beautiful and talented.
In his free willed nature the enemy wanted more. He wanted adoration unto himself. Not with God as the rightful heir of praise for his wonderful nature. But for himself.
God did not create any jealousy or pain for the enemy. He created it for himself.
Wanted to be more than he was meant to be.
But praise the Lord. God used/is using his betrayal for our ultimate benefit.
God is good
In his free willed nature the enemy wanted more. He wanted adoration unto himself. Not with God as the rightful heir of praise for his wonderful nature. But for himself.
God did not create any jealousy or pain for the enemy. He created it for himself.
Wanted to be more than he was meant to be.
But praise the Lord. God used/is using his betrayal for our ultimate benefit.
God is good
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marc32123
Guest
If the enemy(Lucifer) wanted more, can't it can only be because God created him with the desire to want more. Why would God do this.
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marc32123
Guest
I don't see how the fall of Lucifer and the angels had any benefit to anyone.
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Philpy1976
Junior Member
Without free will, without acknowledgment of the gift of choice, very little in the bible makes sense.
To deny that we are given choice is basically saying:
God made Adam, God Made Eve, God created Eve to eat the fruit, God told her not to(knowing she couldn't resist because he created her/programmed her to do this very thing).
What's more, he also programmed Adam to join her in eating the fruit, no choice, just eat it.
Without choice, Adam and Eve would be innocent, unable to say no.
Without choice, what they did would be God's will, yet we know it wasn't.
Did Cain not have the option of leaving Abel alive? If he was created and programmed to kill his brother, then how can he be at fault?
To deny that we are given choice is basically saying:
God made Adam, God Made Eve, God created Eve to eat the fruit, God told her not to(knowing she couldn't resist because he created her/programmed her to do this very thing).
What's more, he also programmed Adam to join her in eating the fruit, no choice, just eat it.
Without choice, Adam and Eve would be innocent, unable to say no.
Without choice, what they did would be God's will, yet we know it wasn't.
Did Cain not have the option of leaving Abel alive? If he was created and programmed to kill his brother, then how can he be at fault?
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marc32123
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I already have another thread about my opinion on free will....I don't want to make this thread into a free will argument
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He was created with free will, which means that he was able to decide, using full knowledge and consent, to reject God.
Why some of the angels choose to go against God is quite beyond our reasoning.
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marc32123
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Yes but didn't the decision he made to rebel only come about because he was designed or created to want to do so?
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No, he was created and designed towards God. He had free will and the choice to reject his nature and make himself into whatever he wanted.
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Sophrosyne
Let Your Light Shine.. Matt 5:16
If there is no free will then nobody (even Lucifer) is responsible for sinning, and it makes God the ultimate sinner. We should all be allowed in heaven regardless of what evil we do because all the bad things done is God's fault. To equate Lucifer was programmed to sin is equating equally we are also programmed to sin too. The fact Jesus was sent to pay the price for our sins says God thinks otherwise because he allows people to choose or reject Jesus.
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Messy
Well-Known Member
That can't. God is Light and in Him there is no darkness at all. So He can't create someone with a wrong desire. That desire came later, satan was the one who invented sin. I don't believe this was His plan. I don't believe He even thought of the possibility, Light thinking about darkness. Where in the Bible does it say He foreknew this? Satan was created and fell before He said: Let there be light. If this was His plan, sounds like He knew good and evil. How can God know (which means: by experience) good and evil? Then He should have sinned Himself, which He didn't and couldn't. He only got to know it when Lucifer fell. How else could He have created Adam without knowledge of good and evil in His Image? They were innocent, so was God.
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seeingeyes
Newbie
No sin, no death. No death, no resurrection.
"For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your ancestors, but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect. He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake." (1 Peter 1)
The Lamb was chosen before the creation of the world.
This world is not God's 'plan B'. It's His 'plan A' and He is doing his work.
"For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your ancestors, but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect. He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake." (1 Peter 1)
The Lamb was chosen before the creation of the world.
This world is not God's 'plan B'. It's His 'plan A' and He is doing his work.
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Messy
Well-Known Member
Yes, I looked that one up, what the words mean, it's another word than the one used for earth, so it could be He had this plan for us after Lucifer fell. I believe in the GAP theory, that Lucifer fell before God (re)created the world.
Job 38:1
Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
earth: erets Hebrew Lexicon :: H776 (KJV)
Revelations 13:8
All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
world can also mean: the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human family
Greek Lexicon :: G2889 (NKJV)
A foundation usually requires a certain amount of destruction in the preparation of the ground, and then the materials that make up the foundation are laid down. The Greek noun ('katabole') for 'foundation' suggests something 'cast down' (cf. 2 Cor 4:9, Rev 12:10), because the related verb is made up of the word for 'throw' or 'cast' and a preposition that often conveys the sense of 'down'. Hence the meaning of the noun is that of a foundation which is laid down (cf. Hebs 6:1).
But even if He knew, I don't believe it was His plan to create a creature that would fall in sin and deceive everyone. Knowing is something else than that it's your plan. He might as well have created him bad then if that was the plan. Salvation of people was the plan, not because He wanted us to sin and this was His plan and will, but because He foreknew it would happen.
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seeingeyes
Newbie
I see no difference between 'foreknowledge' and 'planning' when it comes to the Creator of all things. If He foreknew how this world would be, and found it lacking, why did He still create it?
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People are afraid to admit to the ramifications of God's sovereignty--they don't want to see the ramifications of God's omniscience, His omnipotence, and His omnipresence. So they reduce God to someone who is not really omniscient, not really omnipotent, not really omnipresent in order to avoid acknowledging what scripture says:
Everything is unfolding precisely as God always intended it, it was always in God's plan for Satan to do precisely as Satan has done. Satan was intended for the purpose he is fulfilling.
Thinking otherwise means believing in a God who is kind of weak and stupid.
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Sophrosyne
Let Your Light Shine.. Matt 5:16
I think people want to blame God for their own sin, when in fact their sin is their own and God creating Lucifer isn't an excuse. In other words if we were not given the chance to sin we wouldn't be able to even consider blaming God for sin because we would not have the will to do so.
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seeingeyes
Newbie
Still, He made it with full knowledge. To say He made it but didn't want it makes Him a victim of His own creation. Which, ironically, ends up being exactly what He intended.
"Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one's life for one's friends."
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Dusky Mouse
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Interesting. Let us pursue that pov further.
What would you say to this: If what you say, that without free will very little in the Bible would make sense, what then of scriptures that relate that God is all knowing (omniscient=knowledgeable of all things unto infinity), and that all things that occur do so according to the predestination of them, according to the creator of all things will and plan.
I look forward to your thoughts.
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