Salvation...and Mary!

Ignatius21

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This is worth reading...it isn't long. It's a great perspective on "prayer" to Mary. As with everything in the ancient Church, the practice is rooted in the reality of the Incarnation.

Please do not throw flaming darts unless you've at least read the article.

Otherwise, let the calm and rational discourse begin ;)

Saving Mary | Glory to God for All Things
 

sdowney717

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Really now, Mary Flesh?, and 'No one is saved alone' and 'My salvation, like my sin, is never mine alone'?

Including Mary as 'co-redeemer' is disrespecting Jesus. There is only one name given under heaven whereby we must be saved.
The catholics push this all the time for centuries.

For the language is not idolatrous – but rather a careful theological expression of the Christian doctrine of salvation.

No one is saved alone.

I didn’t get into this mess by myself. I mean to say that the whole mess of my sin and the brokenness of my existence is not entirely my fault. Each of us bears responsibility – but none of us got here by ourselves. We are the children and offspring of sinners. We enter a broken world. Even the ugly mess of contemporary Christian disunity is not of our making. Regardless of how innocent I may enter the world (Orthodoxy holds that we are, by nature, good), I did not enter an innocent world. Born into pain and pleasure, the passions quickly become my companion, even in childhood. We are nurtured and raised by broken men and women, even at their best. Thus, my sins will not be original with me, but will often represent the collective legacy of a broken humanity.

My salvation, like my sin, is never mine alone.

God’s work for our salvation did not avoid the collective quality of our existence. He did not descend among us at a distance nor come to us in a world apart. He took flesh of the Virgin Mary and was made man. The flesh of the God/Man, Jesus Christ, is thus always Mary-flesh. There is no incarnate Son of God who is not also the incarnate Son of Mary.

And in Christ, we become Mary-flesh. “Whosoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood, abides in me and I in Him.” Christ’s flesh becomes our flesh, his blood becomes our blood. Bone of His bone and flesh of His flesh, we share in the cup of the marriage banquet.
 
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sdowney717

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Why not read this on perverting the gospel of Christ?

Calvin - Sermons

Hits hard on the 'papists' and still true today.

an excerpt where Calvin says Papists are reprobates.

We must have resolute determination, so that we can say, ‘Here is the faith by which we are going to live and die.’ We meet many who do not openly oppose the teaching of the gospel, and who even suffer us to preach the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ. Indeed, if we were to ask such people what they disagree with in the gospel, [their answer would be] ‘Nothing!’ But then, if they were to see an altar adorned with grotesque statues, sure enough, they would flock to it! They would go and hear Mass and do all the other excesses of the Papists; it is all the same to them. And if all this is set before them as error, they still cannot see that it makes any difference. Take good note — such base behaviour reveals that they do not have faith. How? Well, this is how we can know, and even feel, if we ourselves are believers: when we have discernment about the gospel, and conclude that it is the infallible truth of God, and that it cannot lead us astray if we follow it. However, the Papists have invented a faith (as they call it) which is veiled; this suits them fine (even though the poor souls know nothing), as long as they continue to say, ‘I rely on our Holy Mother Church; I hold to what she believes.’ These people openly display that they have no faith, and do not know how to be saved. It is written that we can only obtain justification and salvation through faith, when we embrace Jesus Christ as the one who communicates all blessings. Therefore, if the Lord Jesus Christ is unknown, there can be no faith. Popish leaders and teachers have been bewitched by a most awful deception of Satan to speak as they do, which proves to us that they have no knowledge of God; indeed, they are following the path of reprobates.
 
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Ignatius21

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sdowney717 said:
Really now, Mary Flesh?, and 'No one is saved alone' and 'My salvation, like my sin, is never mine alone'? Including Mary as 'co-redeemer' is disrespecting Jesus. There is only one name given under heaven whereby we must be saved. The catholics push this all the time for centuries.

Where does the article call her "co-redeemer?"

I think your response partly proves the authors point about insisting upon understanding "save" and "salvation" in only one way.

I'm not seeing what Calvin's screed against the Catholics has to do with the nuanced understanding of salvation as meaning much more than just deliverance from destruction.
 
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AndOne

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Where does the article call her "co-redeemer?"

I think your response partly proves the authors point about insisting upon understanding "save" and "salvation" in only one way.

I'm not seeing what Calvin's screed against the Catholics has to do with the nuanced understanding of salvation as meaning much more than just deliverance from destruction.

Yeah... But what about scripture?
 
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Ignatius21

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See post #2. Don't you follow your own thread?

I actually didn't see your first post. The point of the article is not to put forward an exegetical apologetic for a particular point of view. The point is to explain what is meant by a particular phrase that has been used by the Church since its infancy. So it's perhaps more akin to an article by a Calvinist explaining, at a more philosophical level, why TULIP doesn't reduce man to a puppet, or something similar.

Does it reference Scripture? Yes. Does it marshall a list of proof texts to use as ammunition against someone else's position? No.

Perhaps you'll read it. Thus far the only engagement I've received has been a response that only reinforced the point of the article, and then referred me to John Calvin's condemnation of the Roman Catholic Church. Cleary there's a disconnect somewhere.
 
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WisdomTree

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AndOne

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I actually didn't see your first post. The point of the article is not to put forward an exegetical apologetic for a particular point of view. The point is to explain what is meant by a particular phrase that has been used by the Church since its infancy. So it's perhaps more akin to an article by a Calvinist explaining, at a more philosophical level, why TULIP doesn't reduce man to a puppet, or something similar.

No Calvinist would ever explain TULIP on a philosophical level - it is a system solely based on scripture and therefore its explanation is based upon scripture proofs. Any Calvinist who would attempt to explain TULIP solely on a philosophical level should be ignored.

Does it reference Scripture? Yes. Does it marshall a list of proof texts to use as ammunition against someone else's position? No.
If the writer can't prove his position from scripture then its not worth the time or effort for me to read it. I kind of figured there would be no scriptural proofs but figured I would ask anyway.

Perhaps you'll read it. Thus far the only engagement I've received has been a response that only reinforced the point of the article, and then referred me to John Calvin's condemnation of the Roman Catholic Church. Cleary there's a disconnect somewhere.

I kind of liked the referral to John Calvin's sermon....
 
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Hammster

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For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, (1 Timothy 2:5 NASB)

If I'm to believe the article, I'd have to change this.

Me, to Mary, to Jesus, to the Father.
 
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Hammster

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In a nutshell, we can "pray" to Mary in the same way that those at the wedding feast "prayed" to her, and then she went to Jesus for more wine.

Oh, and we are all born good.
 
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AndOne

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In a nutshell, we can "pray" to Mary in the same way that those at the wedding feast "prayed" to her, and then she went to Jesus for more wine.

Oh, and we are all born good.

:doh: Glad I didn't waste time reading it...
 
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Tigger45

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Thanks Ignatius21 this article is very timely for me. As you may remember I was an EO catechumen last year. Keeping in mind there is a lot of stumbling blocks for a western minded evangelical believer to get through concerning Orthodoxy, one thing that intrigued me was the scriptural development of the Ark of the Covenant and the New Eve from the Old Testament to the New Testament. Belonging to a Lutheran congregation I am free to explore the topic.
 
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GigageiTsula

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For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, (1 Timothy 2:5 NASB)

If I'm to believe the article, I'd have to change this.

Me, to Mary, to Jesus, to the Father.

Like you, I will stick with Scripture. For example, Jesus Himself said that He is the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through Him (John 14:6). And it is also written in Scripture, "Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved” (Acts 4:12).
 
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Ignatius21

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Like you, I will stick with Scripture. For example, Jesus Himself said that He is the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through Him (John 14:6). And it is also written in Scripture, "Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved” (Acts 4:12).

He isn't sticking with Scripture. Nobody is. He's sticking with his Protestant tradition of interpreting Scripture. Ah, the nuances.

At the end of the day, it's tradition vs. tradition vs. tradition vs. tradition.

If you haven't read the article, please do. The whole point is that the verse you've cited does not refute or contradict the idea of praying to God with and through the saints. If asking your pastor to pray for you negates Christ's unique role of mediator, then we can talk. Otherwise, the verse you've cited doesn't apply. Not being combative, just pointing things out.
 
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