Pope says you don't have to believe in God to be saved

Svt4Him

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Responding to a list of questions published in the paper by Mr Scalfari, who is not a Roman Catholic, Francis wrote: “You ask me if the God of the Christians forgives those who don’t believe and who don’t seek the faith. I start by saying – and this is the fundamental thing – that God’s mercy has no limits if you go to him with a sincere and contrite heart. The issue for those who do not believe in God is to obey their conscience.

Is this just a RCC thing or are there non-RCC's who believe this?
 

Messy

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Is this just a RCC thing or are there non-RCC's who believe this?

I believe when someone never heard the gospel, he can be saved (Romans 2) if the law is written in his heart and he loves his neighbour as himself, like the good Samaritan.
 
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Svt4Him

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Where in that paragraph does Pope Francis say you don't have to believe in God to be saved? I don't see anything like that.


Ummmm.... The issue for those who do not believe in God is to obey their conscience.

But that's not the whole article, but it's linked above.
 
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Messy

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I agree with what he says. If you have the law written in your heart and you do what He says you go to heaven.
I was hungry and you gave Me something to eat.

Problem is most atheists don't have the law written in their hearts and need Jesus and if you only tell 'em this, they might think: oh I'm such a good person, I'll go to heaven by my good works, a lot are proud and don't see themselves as sinners.
So I don't know if he preaches that too, otherwise he teaches only one part.
Romans 2
who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:[a] 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, 9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; 10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.

12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law 13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; 14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.
 
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Yitzchak

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Is this just a RCC thing or are there non-RCC's who believe this?

I have heard this several times over the years in Protestant churches also.

The basic starting point which I have heard is the idea that babies go to Heaven Becuase they have not had a chance to believe. Once that premise is set , then other exceptions are considered , as well. Mentally challenged people , insane people , etc. People in a remote tribe in Africa who have never had a chance to hear the Gospel. Usually the passage from Romans is presented as scriptural support for the idea of God judging some by another standard. The idea is that those people walked in the light that they had with a pure heart and God who sees the heart honors that.

Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
Rom 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.


I can see the logic behind it all. One downside of it is that the whole only by Jesus argument seems to get watered down a bit once we allow exceptions in our doctrine.

One other side note. I have also heard the argument presented along with this that Moses and Elijah are in heaven without calling upon the name of Jesus. The idea being once again that God has more than one plan of salvation for special circumstances. The logic being that if Moses is in heaven and he lived before Christ came and died and before the Gospel was revealed , then he must have gotten to heaven by some other way than by believing the Gospel of Christ crucified.

Anyway , I hope that helps. I am not 100% sure how I feel about all of this. Just relaying what I have heard presented by various church people over the years.
 
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Yitzchak

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Of course one major downside to this whole line of thinking is that it makes the assumption that people are basically good which is grounded more in humanism than it is in Christianity.

The Gospel message is not that people are simply at a disadvantage and need some help. It is that people are hopelessly lost. Being sincere is not enough to get the victory over sin. For that we need a savior.

What at first seems like a harmless allowance for exceptions begins to unravel some pretty important doctrines of the Christian faith when thought through to it's conclusions. The need for a blood sacrifice for sin is just one of these important doctrines which is undermined by this Philosophy.

Anyway, just providing both sides of the issue. I am undecided on this one. God is sovereign and can save whoever He wants to by whatever means that he wants to. I don't think that God will contradict His word , but He may contradict my understanding of His word.
 
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The Unforgettable Fire

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Works based religious systems, be they Christian or not, will inevitably elevate man and try to bring Christ down.

There is a direct correlation between seeing our complete inability to make ourselves right with God and our need for Christ.

To rely upon my righteousness or goodness is to not rely upon God's righteousness and goodness given to me as a gift in Christ.

The two can never go together and by works no man shall be justified.
 
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ByTheSpirit

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I agree with what he says. If you have the law written in your heart and you do what He says you go to heaven.
I was hungry and you gave Me something to eat.

Problem is most atheists don't have the law written in their hearts and need Jesus and if you only tell 'em this, they might think: oh I'm such a good person, I'll go to heaven by my good works, a lot are proud and don't see themselves as sinners.
So I don't know if he preaches that too, otherwise he teaches only one part.
Romans 2
who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:[a] 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, 9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; 10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.

12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law 13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; 14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.

So I guess John 3:16, 18, 36; John 14:6; Acts 2:38, 16:31; Romans 10:9-10, 13; Ephesians 2:8-9 have nothing to do with it then.

The Law is only written on the hearts of those in the covenant relationship with God, Heb 10:11-16, the covenant that was enacted by the blood of Jesus. There is no other way. Those scriptures that you quoted, of Jesus saying I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink were not ever meant for those outside of a faith relationship with Him. Why in the world would God save some by faith, and others by works? Again Ephesians 2:8-9, saved by grace through faith, not works. Please consider this!
 
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ByTheSpirit

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More I read about Pope Francis and watch news clips, the more it does indeed seem he could be the Peter the Roman of Malachy's prophecy. The man is very unorthodox and people absolutely love him for it. Just it is a very dangerous thing for a man to declare himself "The Holy Father", parade around as some figure head within "the Church", and have literally MILLIONS of people who I bet would lay their lives down for him if he so desired.

2 Thessalonians 2:3-4, "3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness[a] is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God."

1 Corinthians 3:16, "Don’t you know that you yourselves are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit dwells in your midst?"

Watch and pray
 
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lismore

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Is this just a RCC thing or are there non-RCC's who believe this?

That's quite a widely held view now, especially given we are in the last days, deception will creep into the church more and more.
 
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lismore

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I believe when someone never heard the gospel, he can be saved (Romans 2) if the law is written in his heart and he loves his neighbour as himself, like the good Samaritan.

I don't believe the Lord Jesus would have gone through all the suffering on the cross if there was another way to be saved.
 
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ByTheSpirit

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I don't believe the Lord Jesus would have gone through all the suffering on the cross if there was another way to be saved.

:amen:

I do not treat the grace of God as meaningless. For if keeping the law could make us right with God, then there was no need for Christ to die. (Galatians 2:21 NLT)
 
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Tobias

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It's interesting how we don't have to do anything to inherit Adam's fallen nature, but salvation through Christ is conditional to whether we've had the opportunity to hear the Gospel message or not.


John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.


Before God sent His Son into the world, people were saved by faith believing that God would do what was necessary to fix the problem, right?

Why is it then, that according to our doctrine, we believe that Christ's death was a turning point. To where at that exact moment the entire world was judged and condemned to hell, unless they happen to have a chance to hear the Gospel? Once Christ "paid the price", anyone who died after that moment was no longer accepted by faith in God alone, but now must know the details of Jesus' life and death to qualify for salvation?

If we reject this doctrine based upon John 3:17 (and a bit of common sense), then we realize that people do not have to have heard the Gospel message preached accurately for them to ultimately be accepted by God.


To be a Christian you have to hear it and accept it; and to be a part of the Kingdom of Heaven which is present here on Earth you need to know certain things... But I don't believe that the only other option is to incur God's wrath and suffer for an eternity in hell. Jesus did not come here to condemn the world because they never heard of him!
 
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The Unforgettable Fire

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It's interesting how we don't have to do anything to inherit Adam's fallen nature, but salvation through Christ is conditional to whether we've had the opportunity to hear the Gospel message or not.

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.

Before God sent His Son into the world, people were saved by faith believing that God would do what was necessary to fix the problem, right?

Why is it then, that according to our doctrine, we believe that Christ's death was a turning point. To where at that exact moment the entire world was judged and condemned to hell, unless they happen to have a chance to hear the Gospel? Once Christ "paid the price", anyone who died after that moment was no longer accepted by faith in God alone, but now must know the details of Jesus' life and death to qualify for salvation?

If we reject this doctrine based upon John 3:17 (and a bit of common sense), then we realize that people do not have to have heard the Gospel message preached accurately for them to ultimately be accepted by God.

To be a Christian you have to hear it and accept it; and to be a part of the Kingdom of Heaven which is present here on Earth you need to know certain things... But I don't believe that the only other option is to incur God's wrath and suffer for an eternity in hell. Jesus did not come here to condemn the world because they never heard of him!

As one who is a reformed Christian, I can tell you that I believe All who hope in His mercy will be saved.
 
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nephilimiyr

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Is this just a RCC thing or are there non-RCC's who believe this?
Not only do some Protestants believe this but some also believe in universalism, in which the RCC doesn't teach.
 
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Svt4Him

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With Jesus there is life, without the wrath of God.

One has the law written on their heart, which is why their conscience will accuse them, not free them. Every lie, every time one takes someone that doesn't belong to them, their conscience accuses them unless they do it so often they no longer feel it. Their conscience won't save them, only show them their guilt.
 
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bhsmte

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Both Billy Graham and Joel Osteen are on record as stating you don't have to go through Jesus to get to heaven either, which is basically saying the same thing.

I believe, the immorality of how many christians judge good people who don't believe in the christian God to be something religious leaders are starting to see as problematic. Is it moral to say a serial killer who accepts Jesus 5 minutes before he is executed is now saved, but the person across the world who lives a loving/caring life, but doesn't believe in the christian God is doomed?

Basic common morality would tell you, any loving just God wouldn't want it that way.
 
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