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YECism and the appearance of age vs. history

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a post by Alan Smithee
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I recently saw this posted on Facebook:

first person said:
And 'why would God create a universe that looks old'?
second person said:
Well why do car manufacturers pump out sedans in a matter of hours instead of building them over several years?

If the whole point is creating a place for beings made in His own likeness to prosper, then the point is to bust it out, not dillydally. But for some reason nobody's accusing car manufacturers of deception b/c it would take so long for cars to build themselves.

The first bit of the response by the second person prompted me to note that it was a poor analogy and explain why by using examples of the appearance of history that I thought I'd share here.

me responding to the second person said:
Those two situations are not analagous. To make your response analagous, the auto manufacturer would make a new car with road wear on the tires, sun-faded paint, some spilled beverage stains and cigarette burn holes in the upholstry and bugs on the windshield.

This is what it comes down to when we look at the "auto" of the world around us. It has wear on the tires and spilled coffee on the floormats and a ding from an accident that happened 23 million years ago - and it has always had those things.


I'm asking AV not to reply to this thread or I'll have the mods close it. I'd rather have 0 replies than... well, what usually happens. TYIA.
 
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juvenissun

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God creates and give us, one of His creation, the ability of using science to interpret.

What we do is to interpret His creations and concluded that God has to be this way or that way, otherwise, He is cheating.

God is bigger than science. You MUST acknowledge that FIRST. Otherwise, leave God alone and enjoy your science.
 
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biggles53

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God creates and give us, one of His creation, the ability of using science to interpret.

What we do is to interpret His creations and concluded that God has to be this way or that way, otherwise, He is cheating.

God is bigger than science. You MUST acknowledge that FIRST. Otherwise, leave God alone and enjoy your science.

Argument from ignorance......
 
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Split Rock

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God creates and give us, one of His creation, the ability of using science to interpret.

What we do is to interpret His creations and concluded that God has to be this way or that way, otherwise, He is cheating.

God is bigger than science. You MUST acknowledge that FIRST. Otherwise, leave God alone and enjoy your science.

God is also bigger than your faulty interpretation of scripture.
 
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jpcedotal

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Let's try another angle.

IF the earth is only 6000 -10000 years old, is there any other theory besides literal translation of the first 12 chapters of Genesis that works?

Scientifically speaking, if we narrow time down that would mean we would have to increase pressure, right?

The Flood covers it. It covers the breaking up of the continents. It covers the extinction of animals that could not survive on earth today because of air pressure or climate. It covers fossils of ocean lifeforms being found 100s if not 1000s of miles inland. It covers how coal is made. It covers how large groups of animals are fossilized together...and on and on and on.

In fact, every other man-made theory of origins falls apart if time is limited.

Infinite time can allow any theory to have a certain amount of creditability because all one has to do is say the earth was very different 1000000000000000000000000000000 years ago. To me, that is weak. It is like the big cop-out. If it can't be proven, just add more time.

Take evolution for instance. This is the only science that requires a natural progression of physical matter. Everything else has at it core a breaking down of matter over the long haul. Still, it needs this eons of time, yet the fruit fly is still a fruit fly no matter how hard scientist try to make it something else (but that is just a lack of "know-how", not false science - sarcasm).

It just seems that this "atheistic only" origin science will not even objectively concede that, whether proven or not, the story in Genesis does cover the basic questions of origins. It gives very plausible reasons for the way things are today. And to me, the #1 proof IS the way things are today...the steady deterioration of everything physical (and moral). If humans with self consciousness and pride were around more than 100000 years, we would not be around today. We are our own worst enemy.

It all lines up perfectly with the Bible. There is no need for any revisions or modifications...because it came from the Creator Himself AND physical origins was just a small side topic.
 
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Subduction Zone

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Let's try another angle.

IF the earth is only 6000 -10000 years old, is there any other theory besides literal translation of the first 12 chapters of Genesis that works?

Scientifically speaking, if we narrow time down that would mean we would have to increase pressure, right?

The Flood covers it. It covers the breaking up of the continents. It covers the extinction of animals that could not survive on earth today because of air pressure or climate. It covers fossils of ocean lifeforms being found 100s if not 1000s of miles inland. It covers how coal is made. It covers how large groups of animals are fossilized together...and on and on and on.

In fact, every other man-made theory of origins falls apart if time is limited.

Infinite time can allow any theory to have a certain amount of creditability because all one has to do is say the earth was very different 1000000000000000000000000000000 years ago. To me, that is weak. It is like the big cop-out. If it can't be proven, just add more time.

Take evolution for instance. This is the only science that requires a natural progression of physical matter. Everything else has at it core a breaking down of matter over the long haul. Still, it needs this eons of time, yet the fruit fly is still a fruit fly no matter how hard scientist try to make it something else (but that is just a lack of "know-how", not false science - sarcasm).

It just seems that this "atheistic only" origin science will not even objectively concede that, whether proven or not, the story in Genesis does cover the basic questions of origins. It gives very plausible reasons for the way things are today. And to me, the #1 proof IS the way things are today...the steady deterioration of everything physical (and moral). If humans with self consciousness and pride were around more than 100000 years, we would not be around today. We are our own worst enemy.

It all lines up perfectly with the Bible. There is no need for any revisions or modifications...because it came from the Creator Himself AND physical origins was just a small side topic.


No, simply increasing pressure does not cover it. Even the pressure of magically appearing and disappearing of 5 miles of water.

It does not cover the fossils since the order that they are found in, down to microscopic index fossils cannot be explained by the flood. Now you may think that you can explain it by saying dinosaurs had different densities than mammals. That is an extremely dubious claim. Are you going to try to claim the same about different radiolaria? I am sorry, but you can't.

Nor does pressure explain half a million years of ice layers at Antarctica. It does not explain why God hates short lived radioactive elements, except those made naturally such as C14 yet he has no problem with long lived ones. It does not explain why very small asteroids tumble but any of significant size do not.

None of these and countless other pieces of evidence make any sense when looked at through a creationism paradigm.
 
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Split Rock

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IF the earth is only 6000 -10000 years old, is there any other theory besides literal translation of the first 12 chapters of Genesis that works?
I guess not, considering the simple fact that no one has ever looked at the earth and concluded it was 6,000 years old. Do you think this is in your favor somehow?

Scientifically speaking, if we narrow time down that would mean we would have to increase pressure, right?
Where do you come up with that idea? Are you implying all the carbon on earth is diamond or something?

The Flood covers it. It covers the breaking up of the continents. It covers the extinction of animals that could not survive on earth today because of air pressure or climate. It covers fossils of ocean lifeforms being found 100s if not 1000s of miles inland. It covers how coal is made. It covers how large groups of animals are fossilized together...and on and on and on.
Yeah.. The Flood covers everything that The Fall doesn't.. Make sure you include lots of handwaving, though.

Volcanic activity in the past? The Flood!
Impactors hitting earth in the past? The Flood!
Multiple ice ages in the past? The Flood!
The Grand Canyon? The Flood!
Fossils of extinct organisms? The Flood!
Mountains with fossils inside them? The Flood!

The Flood covers everything you want it to, doesn't it?

In fact, every other man-made theory of origins falls apart if time is limited.
But time is not limited like you want it to. Your problem is that it is too limited by your religious dogma. Try and shoehorn billions of years into 6,000 all you want, it will never fit.

Infinite time can allow any theory to have a certain amount of creditability because all one has to do is say the earth was very different 1000000000000000000000000000000 years ago. To me, that is weak. It is like the big cop-out. If it can't be proven, just add more time.
No one is claiming "infinite" time, though... are they? Strawman.

Take evolution for instance. This is the only science that requires a natural progression of physical matter. Everything else has at it core a breaking down of matter over the long haul. Still, it needs this eons of time, yet the fruit fly is still a fruit fly no matter how hard scientist try to make it something else (but that is just a lack of "know-how", not false science - sarcasm).
"Evolution" in general is not limited to "only" one science. It includes biology, geology, astronomy, cosmology, etc.

It just seems that this "atheistic only" origin science will not even objectively concede that, whether proven or not, the story in Genesis does cover the basic questions of origins. It gives very plausible reasons for the way things are today. And to me, the #1 proof IS the way things are today...the steady deterioration of everything physical (and moral). If humans with self consciousness and pride were around more than 100000 years, we would not be around today. We are our own worst enemy.

All of science if agnostic. It makes no sense to point out evolution as "atheistic only."

The stories of GEN1-2 are not plausible at all.
1. A man created from dirt.
2. A woman created from his rib who is not a clone.
3. Light before the sun.
4. The earth before the sun.
5. Plant life before the sun.
6. A tree that makes fruit which gives you instant knowledge.
7. A tree that makes fruit that gives you immortality.
8. A talking snake.
The list goes on and on....

It all lines up perfectly with the Bible. There is no need for any revisions or modifications...because it came from the Creator Himself AND physical origins was just a small side topic.
If physical origins is such a small side topic, why are you guys so angry about it? Why have a "crusade" against evolution and deep time?
 
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Subduction Zone

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Loudmouth

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Let's try another angle.

IF the earth is only 6000 -10000 years old, is there any other theory besides literal translation of the first 12 chapters of Genesis that works?

Is there any other reason, besides a religious belief in a literal Genesis, to conclude that the Earth is young?

Scientifically speaking, if we narrow time down that would mean we would have to increase pressure, right?

Wrong. Increased pressure will not change the radiometric age of rocks. It will also not produce 2,000 feet of sea lily fossils found in some deposits, or the hundreds of feet of chalk at Dover. Increased pressure will not produce uranium radiohaloes in rocks, or produce hundreds of thousands of lake varves with insect and leaf debris sorted by 14C concentration. Increased pressure will not produce any of the evidence for an old Earth.

The Flood covers it. It covers the breaking up of the continents. It covers the extinction of animals that could not survive on earth today because of air pressure or climate. It covers fossils of ocean lifeforms being found 100s if not 1000s of miles inland. It covers how coal is made. It covers how large groups of animals are fossilized together...and on and on and on.

It doesn't cover any of that. For instance, we find marine ECOSYSTEMS inland that would take millions of years to produce, such as the 2,000 feet of sea lily fossils and chalk deposits that I spoke of earlier.

Take evolution for instance. This is the only science that requires a natural progression of physical matter.

Actually, every theory in science that deals with matter uses a natural progression. Every one of them.

Still, it needs this eons of time, yet the fruit fly is still a fruit fly no matter how hard scientist try to make it something else (but that is just a lack of "know-how", not false science - sarcasm).

Humans are still apes, still primates, still mammals, still vertebrates, and still eukaryotes. All of the genetic evidence also points to a very long evolutionary history that could only be explained by an Omphalos type explanation as well.

It just seems that this "atheistic only" origin science will not even objectively concede that, whether proven or not, the story in Genesis does cover the basic questions of origins.

However, it does not explain the facts which you refuse to concede.

It gives very plausible reasons for the way things are today.

No, it doesn't. Your explanations above are perfect examples of the most implausible reasons that can exist.

If humans with self consciousness and pride were around more than 100000 years, we would not be around today. We are our own worst enemy.

Pride is thinking that the men who wrote the Bible were speaking for a deity.

It all lines up perfectly with the Bible.

No, it doesn't.
 
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juvenissun

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I recently saw this posted on Facebook:



The first bit of the response by the second person prompted me to note that it was a poor analogy and explain why by using examples of the appearance of history that I thought I'd share here.



This is what it comes down to when we look at the "auto" of the world around us. It has wear on the tires and spilled coffee on the floormats and a ding from an accident that happened 23 million years ago - and it has always had those things.

I'm asking AV not to reply to this thread or I'll have the mods close it. I'd rather have 0 replies than... well, what usually happens. TYIA.


I rather to have AV around. Otherwise, the thread is doomed.
 
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And-U-Say

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Let's try another angle.
OK. Others have taken a crack at this, but I can't resist as there are some additional points I would like to include.

IF the earth is only 6000 -10000 years old, is there any other theory besides literal translation of the first 12 chapters of Genesis that works?

First, how does this help you at all? Uniqueness does not validate a theory in any way shape or form. There are hundreds of examples of this from the past.

Second, all those other theories which do compete for a young earth explanation are all equally valid. Because, like yours, they all have to ignore libraries full of data and impress gullibility and ignorance on their believers. So your theory is just like all the others: in complete disagreement with the evidence. So in the end, yours is not really unique.

Scientifically speaking, if we narrow time down that would mean we would have to increase pressure, right?
Wrong. Temperature is far more important. And as others have pointed out, pressure and temperature do nothing to explain vast swaths of the evidence for an old earth.

The Flood covers it.
No, it doesn't. There is NO evidence for a world wide flood, EVER.


It covers the breaking up of the continents.
Not even sort of. Continents moving as fast as claimed by runaway subduction assertion (and not all creationists buy this) would fry the planet.

It covers the extinction of animals that could not survive on earth today because of air pressure or climate.
Not really. Were they not supposed to be on the ark? Are you telling me that a Tyrannosaurus could not survive post flood? That NO dinosaurs could survive? What insanity is this? The flood also cannot cover the geographical distribution of animals (despite the nutty assertions of AiG).

It covers fossils of ocean lifeforms being found 100s if not 1000s of miles inland.
Oh boy, not at ALL. There are thousands of feet of strata inland, no flood could begin to do that in a year. There are utterly massive aspects to soil movement that have to be ignored for the flood to produce the myriad of modern geological features we see today.

It covers how coal is made.
No, it does not. Had a flood like that have really occurred there would be no coal or oil because the organic matter would be far too spread out. It would NOT be in huge, thick, localized deposits. And another thing, sparky, the amount of organic matter in coal and oil is far too great to represent plant and animal life at a single point in time on earth.

It covers how large groups of animals are fossilized together...and on and on and on.
No, and No, and NO. Why are these groups so utterly narrow in the type of animal represented? Why no bunnies and trilobites mixed together? Why the perfect sorting by development path? Why the perfect dating of the layers? Nothing of the flood makes any sense to someone who spends any significant time really looking at it.

In fact, every other man-made theory of origins falls apart if time is limited.
What every other? What are you even talking about?

Infinite time can allow any theory to have a certain amount of creditability because all one has to do is say the earth was very different 1000000000000000000000000000000 years ago.
But nobody is suggesting that, are they. Current theories have very specific dates which are not gleaned from how long evolution should or should not take. This is meaningless.

To me, that is weak. It is like the big cop-out. If it can't be proven, just add more time.
Or course it would be weak, if anybody ever had proposed this. Luckily, smart people do these investigations, not you.

Take evolution for instance.
I am afraid of what I am going to see next.

This is the only science that requires a natural progression of physical matter.
What? No! Evolution does not need or require a progression. There is no progression in the Theory of Evolution. We only have organisms that are more fit for their environment.

And what do you mean "of physical matter".? Matter is the same now as it was billions of years ago. There has been no progression of physical matter. You don't understand any of this very well, do you.

Everything else has at it core a breaking down of matter over the long haul.
No. Nothing has matter "breaking down" over the long haul. Do you have any idea as to what you are writing? And even if you are trying to tie the 2LoT in here somewhere, this is not how it works. Not at all.

Still, it needs this eons of time, yet the fruit fly is still a fruit fly no matter how hard scientist try to make it something else (but that is just a lack of "know-how", not false science - sarcasm).
Only creationists can contradict themselves in the same sentence.

It just seems that this "atheistic only" origin science will not even objectively concede that, whether proven or not, the story in Genesis does cover the basic questions of origins.
First, it is not "atheistic only". It is evidence based. The problem, is that there is NO evidence for the supernatural including god, genesis, and the flood. Go get some evidence, and them we can talk. Until then, what do we have to talk about?

Second, you need to understand WHY a Scientist would "concede" (I think you really mean "to accept my assertion"). Again, evidence is what drives Science. No Scientist should EVER "concede" without evidence. And thats a good thing as otherwise we would still be praying for our car to run, using witch doctors for medicine, and howling at the moon at night.

It gives very plausible reasons for the way things are today.
Nope

And to me, the #1 proof IS the way things are today...the steady deterioration of everything physical (and moral).
Your own little story doesn't even jive with that. Think about it, people were so morally corrupt at one time that god killed all but eight people in the world. Boy, they had to be bad for that to happen. And destroyed two cities for that reason as well.

So where is all this smiting today if people are on some sort of moral decline? How come the world is a safer place than it has ever been? Although there is a long way to go, how come we now, with secular governments, come far closer to what jesus wanted in supporting the poor than at any time in history? There is less human misery, suffering, and misbehavior now than at any time in history. Every decade of human history screams that you are completely wrong.



If humans with self consciousness and pride were around more than 100000 years, we would not be around today. We are our own worst enemy.
It's not about pride and self consciousness, it's about numbers and technology. The Hawaiians fought wars of annihilation, but they didn't kill everybody because that is hard to do with spears. One hopes that our increased sense of morals can keep pace with the technology, people like you make that hard to happen.

It all lines up perfectly with the Bible. There is no need for any revisions or modifications...because it came from the Creator Himself AND physical origins was just a small side topic.
And how do you know this? What process do you use to differentiate this from other "creators"? It looks a lot more like you are just gullible.
 
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EternalDragon

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The original post about the car with worn tires, etc. does not follow either.

No one has seen a planet form. You assume that forming the earth quickly instead of through natural processes would show illusionary "wear and tear". You also assume that decay of isotopes is "wear and tear".

Adam and Eve were not created with "wear and tear" either although created as full grown adults with intelligence and speech.

Subduction Zone, I wanted to answer your question about where the water came from and disappeared to during the flood. (It has to do with your name). One model from a scientists explains that runaway subduction occurred along the Mid-Atlantic Rift. Bending the seafloor upwards and pushing the ocean water up. It is quite technical and deals with how deep seawater interacts with the subduction among other details.

The water for the flood came from the ocean and then went back into the ocean and lakes we have today. That is the easiest explanation.
 
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