Will the Rapture happen before or during 2014? Please watch this video...thoughts?

[Quantum Paradise]

He's got some videos Purple. I watch a lot of his stuff for finding out what's really going on with our evil government that you will never hear on the lame stream media

lol, lame stream media...I like it. I am so adopting the phrase

 

[Gnarwhal]

Especially when the numbers were bogus to begin with. According to what I read, there are about 2.18 billion Christians worldwide. Of that number, roughly 63% are Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox. Those folks generally believe nothing even remotely like what B2 is on about. Of the remaining 37-38% who are Protestant, the enthusiasm for End Times fantasizing is confined largely to American evangelicals and fundamentalists, who make up a relatively small percentage of the world's Protestants.

So, a billion who believe in Luciferian conspiracies, android antichrists, multiple returns of our Lord, restoration of the temple and temple sacrifice, and most of the other arrant nonsense that had been attached to futurist eschatology? Not even close. A few million, maybe tens of millions here in the States. But still a smallish minority of the Church Militant.

Boom. Lawyer'd.

 

[Houly]

Androids and all? Literally? Luciferean conspiracies? All that science fantasy arglebargle is literally mentioned in Scripture? Where?

Literal global tribulation, during which all of mankind will be directed to receive the mark of the beast, reject Jesus Christ, and worship the Antichrist: a man who will perform great signs, stand in a temple in Jerusalem, and declare himself to be the Messiah, since that is what scripture literally tells us.

You know where the scripture says those things, but you read it as figurative for the ongoing (or "historic and repeated") struggle in mankind. I read it literally, and I don't add science fantasy.

 

[Interplanner]

"Ongoing" is not as accurate as historic and repeated. If you know the historic then you know a bit of what might repeat. Or is it Houly who used to say Mt 24 & //s have nothing to do with the 1st century ordeal?

 

[Houly]

If you see it as historic and repeated, then can't you understand why so many people expect a future tribulation (another repetition in your view)? The final tribulation before the return of Jesus Christ is the "great tribulation" that we are expecting (it could be in today's generation or it could still be future). We think that scripture has given us details and warnings about that great tribulation, since it will be mankind's final trial before our Lord returns.

 

[Houly]

A few million, maybe tens of millions here in the States. But still a smallish minority of the Church Militant.

I agree that the numbers don't reveal the truth (every single person on earth could be wrong).

But you are wrong to say that it is a "smallish minority of the Church Militant" who expect the literal future fulfillment of John's Revelation.

Newsweek: Forty Percent of Americans Believe the World Will End as the Bible Predicts: A Battle Between Jesus and the Antichrist at Armageddon. - Free Online Library

 

[Bible2]

Houly said in post 68:

. . . there will be a literal global tribulation, during which all of mankind will be directed to receive the mark of the beast, reject Jesus Christ, and worship the Antichrist . . . since that is what scripture literally tells us. The tribulation idea isn't a "conspiracy theory." It's a literal reading and acceptance of prophecy.

That's right

The "mark of the beast" (Revelation 13:16-17, Revelation 16:2) will be a literal, physical mark which will be visible to people, so they can easily tell (in every situation, even one without electricity) whether or not someone should be permitted to buy or sell (Revelation 13:17). It will be visible also because the original Greek of Revelation 13:16 shows that the mark will be placed only "on" (epi), not inside, people's right hands or foreheads. Also, it will be placed on people probably by scarification. For in Revelation 13:16, one of the definitions of the original Greek word (charagma, G5480) translated as the "mark" is "a scratch or etching" (Strong's Greek Dictionary), and scarification is the scratching or etching (i.e. the cutting) of the skin to leave a permanent mark. The reason people will be given the mark in Revelation 13:16, in the context of what had been shown just previously in Revelation 13:4,8,15, will be to serve as a visible indicator to other people that they're loyal worshippers of Lucifer (the dragon, Satan) (Revelation 13:4, Revelation 12:9) and of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) and his image (Revelation 13:4,8,15), just as some Luciferians today put a mark on themselves by scarification.

The mark will consist of only the Antichrist's name "or" some representation of the gematrial number of his name (666) (Revelation 13:17-18), meaning that the mark will be the Antichrist's name for some people and a representation of the gematrial number of his name for other people. And the mark will be placed only on the right hand (probably on the palm) "or" on the forehead (Revelation 13:16), meaning that it will be placed on the right hand of some people and on the forehead of other people.

Those who refuse to receive the Antichrist's mark won't be allowed to buy or sell anything (Revelation 13:17), and they will be executed by being beheaded if they refuse to worship the Antichrist and his image (Revelation 13:15, Revelation 20:4). Christians must be willing to suffer this fate rather than agree to receive the Antichrist's mark or worship him or his image, for those who agree to do those things (even if they're Christians) will suffer God's wrath in fire and brimstone forever (Revelation 14:9-13), whereas those Christians who refuse to do those things, even though they will be beheaded, will subsequently be physically resurrected into immortality (along with the rest of the obedient church of all times) at Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 20:4-6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52-58). And even before their resurrection, at the moment of their death, their still-conscious souls will be brought into the presence of Jesus in heaven (cf. 2 Corinthians 5:8, Philippians 1:21,23, Revelation 6:9-10, Luke 23:43,46).

In the future, when the world begins to worship the Antichrist as God (Revelation 13:8; 2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36), some people could gladly be willing to have his name placed by scarification on their right palm, just as lovers in the past were sometimes known to have their loved ones' initials placed by scarification on their palm (cf. also Isaiah 49:16, Jeremiah 48:37, Leviticus 19:28, Leviticus 21:5). Other of the Antichrist's worshippers could gladly be willing to have his name placed by scarification on their forehead, thinking (mistakenly) that they're fulfilling the Christian idea of Revelation 22:4, which refers to the future point in time when Jesus will put God's name visibly on the forehead of obedient Christians (Revelation 3:12). The Antichrist's miracle-working False Prophet, who will be the one to cause everyone to be marked with the Antichrist's mark (Revelation 13:16-18), could even convince people that he (the False Prophet) is Jesus returned (but he won't say that he's the Christ, for he and the Antichrist will deny that Jesus is the Christ, and will deny that Christ is in the flesh: 1 John 2:22; 2 John 1:7).

Instead of having the Antichrist's name engraved on their right hand or forehead, some of his worshippers will have the gematrial number of his name (666) (Revelation 13:17c-18) engraved on their right hand or forehead. But because some people could refuse to have "666" placed on their body, in order to make a mark of 666 acceptable to all people, it could be disguised to look like something else in those cases where people demand something other than "666". For example, it could be disguised in some cases to look like "777", or "111", or "WWW", or "VVV", or "|| || ||", or "FFF". For the 6th letter of the ancient Hebrew alphabet (Vav) represents the number 6, but it looks like a "7", or a "1", and it's transliterated into English as either a "W" or a "V". Also, two thin vertical lines "||" represent the number 6 on many UPC codes. And the letter "F" has a numerical value of 6 in English gematria.

In an awful coincidence (or maybe it's not just a coincidence), "FFF" also stands for an extremely powerful type of nuclear bomb: Fission-Fusion-Fission. Could this be the type of bomb that the 10 kings of the Antichrist's empire will employ to burn up the cities of the world at the end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Revelation 17:12,16,17a, Revelation 16:19, Revelation 19:2,11)?

The "WWW" which has been placed on many web addresses, and the "|| || ||" which has been placed across many UPC codes on products (i.e. they have a "||" at the beginning, middle, and end of their UPC codes), are harbingers of when Lucifer will give the Antichrist ownership of everything on the earth (Revelation 13:2b; cf. Luke 4:7), and of the Antichrist placing his "brand" on everything, like a rancher places his "brand" on all his cattle. For both "WWW" and "|| || ||" are disguised representations of the gematrial number of the Antichrist's name: 666 (Revelation 13:17c-18). But Revelation 13:16 isn't fulfilled by some web addresses having "WWW", nor by some products having "|| || ||" on their UPC codes, for Revelation 13:16 refers only to when people will be given the Antichrist's mark, either on their right hand or forehead.

Those assigned to have the mark placed on their forehead (instead of on their right hand) (Revelation 13:16) could be an elite, illumined, cognoscenti class of Gnostic Luciferians who alone will have been given knowledge of the ultimate secrets of the Antichrist's Gnostic Luciferianism. The Antichrist will be both a Luciferian, a worshipper of Lucifer/Satan the dragon (Revelation 13:4, Revelation 12:9), and a Gnostic, someone who denies that Christ is in the flesh (1 John 4:3), and forbids marriage and the eating of meat (1 Timothy 4:1-3). The cream of his cognoscenti could be a faux 144,000, consisting of male virgins (as a counterfeit of Revelation 14:4) who have never eaten meat. If they receive on their forehead the mark of the Antichrist's name (instead of a representation of the number of his name) (Revelation 13:17), this will be as a counterfeit of YHWH's 144,000 in Revelation 14:1. But the Antichrist won't pretend that he's YHWH, just as he won't pretend that he's Christ. Instead, as a Gnostic, he will utterly revile YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36). And his Gnostic denial that Christ is in the flesh (1 John 4:3) will disqualify him (under his mistaken Gnostic doctrine) from being the Christ.

Houly said in post 68:

Except for the billion or so of us who agree with him that there will be a literal global tribulation, during which all of mankind will be directed to receive the mark of the beast, reject Jesus Christ, and worship the Antichrist: a man who will perform great signs, stand in a temple in Jerusalem, and declare himself to be the Messiah, since that is what scripture literally tells us.

"Anti"-Christ can simply refer to anyone who is "against" the true Christ, as in anyone who denies that Jesus is the Christ (1 John 2:22), or denies that Jesus is the human/divine Son of God (1 John 2:22b), or denies that Christ is in the flesh (2 John 1:7). The spirit of antichrist (1 John 4:3) has been working since the first century AD (2 Thessalonians 2:7), animating many antichrists since that time (1 John 2:18; 2 John 1:7).

Note that nothing requires that the Antichrist will ever claim to be the Messiah/Christ, for his antichrist denial that Christ is in the flesh (1 John 4:3) will disqualify him as a mortal-flesh human (under his mistaken Gnostic doctrine) from being Christ. Instead, the non-mortal-flesh Lucifer (Satan, the dragon) could be the false Christ (i.e. the "Lucifer" Christ, and not the "Jesus" Christ: 1 John 2:22) during the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9), which will be in the latter half of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24.

But none of this means that there won't also be multiple false human Christs who will arise during the tribulation (Matthew 24:24), including one who will be a false ultra-Orthodox Jewish Christ/Messiah. For shortly after the start of the tribulation, the Antichrist could "cut" a peace treaty with a false ultra-Orthodox Jewish "Messiah" (Daniel 9:26a, Daniel 11:22-23a), promising this false Messiah and his ultra-Orthodox Jewish followers that they can keep for at least 7 more years (Daniel 9:27a) a 3rd Jewish temple (Revelation 11:1) which they will have built on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem.

 

[Bible2]

Quantum Paradise said in post 69:

A lot of things still have to happen before Jesus returns, and I highly doubt it will all unfold over the course of a year or two.

That's right.

The tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, which Jesus will return immediately after (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6) hasn't started yet. It will begin with a horrible war, which, with its aftermath of famines and epidemics, will end up killing 1/4 of the world (Revelation 6:4-8). The "great sword" of this war (Revelation 6:4) could be Israel's nuclear weapons. After this war, there will be a terrible series of natural disasters historically unprecedented in their magnitude, such as a gigantic volcanic eruption (Revelation 6:12-14), possibly of the Yellowstone Caldera, and then the collapse into the ocean of another erupting volcano (Revelation 8:8-9), possibly one of the Canary Islands, the collapse of which could set up a huge tsunami which could destroy the eastern seaboard of the U.S.

If such a tsunami occurs, it could cause a string of awful, Fukushima-type, nuclear-meltdown radiation disasters in the nuclear power plants and their nuclear-waste storage facilities all along the eastern seaboard of the U.S. Also, if the tsunami breaks open the germ-containment structures on Plum Island, just off the coast of Connecticut, especially-deadly viruses and bacteria could be washed inland and spread across the U.S. and Canada as they infect animals and people.

After the volcanic activity and possible tsunami, a comet will strike the earth (Revelation 8:10-11), possibly in the U.S. and Canadian Great Lakes region. As the comet falls from the sky, it will look like a great star, or like a burning lamp in the sky (Revelation 8:10). It will strike a region of the earth which contains 1/3 of the world's fresh surface water (Revelation 8:10b), and it will contain some poisonous element which will poison that water so that many who drink from it will die (Revelation 8:11b). Sometime after that, weird locust-like beings will swarm up from the bottomless pit of the earth to torment mankind with excruciating stings for 5 months (Revelation 9:2-10). The world could see them as "aliens" who had been hibernating for thousands of years in a cavern deep underground. The locust-like beings won't kill anyone, but they will make those they sting want to die, the pain will be so bad (Revelation 9:5-6).

After that, an army of 200 million weird horse-like beings and their (possibly fallen-angel) riders will come upon the earth (Revelation 9:16-19). If they descend from the sky in spaceships, the world could see them as aliens. But they and the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) could (falsely) say that they're YHWH God's main army. In fact, they could be loyal to Lucifer (Satan, the dragon, Revelation 12:9). The 4 fallen angels now bound at the Euphrates who will lead this army (Revelation 9:14-16) could employ it to make mankind completely desperate before its complete takeover by Lucifer and the Antichrist mid-tribulation (Revelation 12:9 to 13:18). For when the army starts killing 1/3 of mankind (Revelation 9:16-19), then could also begin one of the biggest deceptions ever wrought upon mankind. For the Antichrist, who by that time could have managed to have been elected as the Prime Minister of a Mediterranean Union formed by the joining of the European Union with an Arab Union stretching from Oman to Morocco, could announce to the world that he has sent a mental distress call to (what he could call) "My Father, our Lord Lucifer, to come with his legions of angels, and rescue mankind from this murderous army of YHWH".

(And all of this will be part of only the first half of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24.)

It's at this point that Lucifer and an army of his angels could be cast down out of heaven to the earth permanently after losing a mid-tribulation war in heaven (Revelation 12:7-9). But instead of coming down as a defeated force, they could descend for all the world to see in gigantic, magnificent golden spaceships onto the "Champ de Mars", Mars being the same as Marduk the dragon, the chief god of ancient Babylon. The "Champ de Mars" is the large open area in front of the Eiffel Tower in Paris. After landing there, Lucifer, a literal, 7-headed dragon (Revelation 12:3,9), could emerge in great splendor and command the army of fallen angels that descended with him to capture the army of 200 million weird horse-like beings and their (possibly fallen-angel) riders, who could then pretend to defect from serving YHWH to serving Lucifer. Lucifer could then confirm that he has come to rescue mankind because the Antichrist, who he could say is his only-begotten "Son", called upon him (like in an Antichrist counterfeit of Matthew 26:53). Lucifer and the Antichrist could then be received wholeheartedly by the unsaved world as the saviors of mankind. And the unsaved world could be left thinking (mistakenly) that Lucifer and his angels were more powerful than even YHWH's main army.

Lucifer and the Antichrist, along with the Antichrist's miracle-working False Prophet, will then deceive the world into actually worshipping Lucifer and the Antichrist and a speaking (possibly android) image of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:4-16, Revelation 19:20; 2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). And everyone will be made to receive a (possibly scarification) mark of the Antichrist, either on their right hand or forehead, consisting of either the Antichrist's name or some representation of the gematrial number of his name (666) (Revelation 13:16-18). After Lucifer and the Antichrist have ruled the world for 3.5 literal years (Revelation 13:4-18), YHWH will send 7 vials of wrath against the unsaved world (Revelation 16).

Near the end of the 7 vials, unclean spirits like frogs will come out of the mouths of Lucifer, the Antichrist, and the False Prophet (Revelation 16:13). And these unclean spirits like frogs will go forth and perform amazing miracles to convince the world's armies to gather together at Armageddon (Har Megiddo: Mount Megiddo in northern Israel) (Revelation 16:16) to battle against YHWH himself (Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:19). After gathering together at Armageddon as a staging area, the armies will travel south and pillage Jerusalem, right before Jesus (who is YHWH: John 10:30) returns from heaven and defeats them completely (Revelation 19:11 to 20:6, Zechariah 14:2-21).

When Jesus returns, immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Revelation 19:7-21, Matthew 24:29-31), he will descend bodily from heaven on a white horse (Revelation 19:7-21; 1 Thessalonians 4:16, Zechariah 14:3-4, Acts 1:11-12) with all the holy angels (Matthew 25:31; 2 Thessalonians 1:7) for all the world to see (Matthew 24:27,30, Revelation 1:7). Then the church will be bodily resurrected (if dead) or physically changed (if alive) into immortality (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:16, Revelation 20:4-6) and caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (Matthew 24:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1) as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

At that meeting, he will judge the church (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27; 2 Corinthians 5:10, Luke 12:45-48) and marry its obedient part (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12) in the clouds, before it mounts white horses and comes back down from sky (the first heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:14) as he defeats the world's armies (Revelation 19:19,21) and the Antichrist and False Prophet (Revelation 19:20), and has Lucifer (Satan) bound in the bottomless pit for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:1-3).

Jesus will then make the marriage supper of Revelation 19:9 for the obedient part of the church in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54), while the birds will feast on the corpses of the world's defeated armies (Revelation 19:17-18). Then Jesus and the obedient part of the church will rule the surviving nations with a rod of iron for the full 1,000 years of the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 2). After the 1,000 years are over, Lucifer will be released from the bottomless pit and bring about the Gog/Magog rebellion, only to be defeated for the last time (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39).

At least 7 years after that defeat (Ezekiel 39:9b), the great white throne judgment will occur, in which all those who hadn't been resurrected and judged at Jesus' return will be resurrected and judged (Revelation 20:11-15). Then God will create a new heaven (a new first heaven: a new sky/atmosphere for the earth) and a new earth (a new surface for the earth) (Revelation 21:1; 2 Peter 3:10b,13). Then God the Father will descend from the 3rd heaven in the literal city of New Jerusalem (Revelation 21:2), the Father's house (John 14:2, Revelation 21:3), and he will dwell on the earth with Jesus and the church (Revelation 21:3).

In one area outside the walls of New Jerusalem on the new earth will be the lake of fire (Revelation 22:15, Revelation 21:8) in which all of unsaved humanity will be punished forever in fire and brimstone with Lucifer and his fallen angels (Revelation 20:10,15, Matthew 25:41,46).

 

[Bible2]

Jipsah said in post 71:

The Antichrist will fulfill 2 Thessalonians 2:4 after he by force takes control of a 3rd Jewish temple . . .

Ain't one.

Not yet. But Revelation 11:1-2, Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31,36, and 2 Thessalonians 2:4 require that there will be a 3rd Jewish temple in the earthly Jerusalem during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. This 3rd temple will coexist with the church like the 2nd temple did (Luke 24:53, Acts 2:46, Acts 22:17) and like the temple building in heaven does (Revelation 11:19). The 3rd temple could be built on Jerusalem's Temple Mount by the ultra-Orthodox Jews after they (or great earthquakes) clear the site by destroying the Muslim Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa Mosque. Shortly after they build the temple, the Antichrist could attack and defeat them and a false Messiah leading them (Daniel 11:22).

Then the Antichrist could "cut" a peace treaty with them and their false "Messiah" (Daniel 9:26a, Daniel 11:23a), permitting them to keep the temple, and to continue to perform the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices in front of it, for at least 7 more years (Daniel 9:27a), so long as they give up the outer court of the temple (Revelation 11:2a) to the Muslims, so that the Muslims can rebuild the Al Aqsa Mosque on the southern end of the Temple Mount and resume worship there. The ultra-Orthodox Jews could grudgingly agree to this, if the only other option is for them to lose the temple entirely. They could then build a high wall between the temple and the mosque, in order to keep the temple from being defiled.

But then, only some 3.5 years after making the peace treaty, the Antichrist will break the treaty, attack the temple, stop the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices, place the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing android image of the Antichrist) in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the temple (Daniel 9:27b, Daniel 11:31, Matthew 24:15), and then sit himself in the temple and proclaim himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). Thus could begin the Antichrist's literal 3.5-year Luciferian (Satanic) worldwide reign of terror (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9; 2 Thessalonians 2:9).

At the very end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, the Antichrist (Daniel 11:45) and the world's armies will pillage Jerusalem right before Jesus' 2nd coming (Zechariah 14:2-21). And at the 2nd coming there will be tremendous earth changes in the vicinity of Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:4-5). These events could result in all of Jerusalem's structures, including the 3rd temple and the Wailing Wall (also called the Western Wall), being broken down so that not one stone will be left on another (Luke 19:44, Matthew 24:2). Then the returned Jesus (Zechariah 14:4, Acts 1:11-12) will rebuild Jerusalem and make it the capital of the world (Zechariah 14:8-19, Micah 4:1-4). He will also build a 4th temple there (Zechariah 14:20-21, Zechariah 6:12-13). It will serve a similar function for the church during the future millennium (of Revelation 20:4-6) as the 2nd temple served for the church in the first century AD (Luke 24:53, Acts 2:46, Acts 22:17) and as the temple building in heaven (Revelation 11:19) serves for those in heaven (Revelation 7:15).

Jipsah said in post 71:

The Antichrist will fulfill 2 Thessalonians 2:4 after he by force takes control of a 3rd Jewish temple . . .

Ain't one.

One reason that the 3rd Jewish temple hasn't been built yet is the Israeli government is protecting the Muslim Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa Mosque (the 3rd-holiest buildings in Islam, right after those in Mecca and Medina), knowing that if the ultra-Orthodox Jews were to destroy these buildings in order to clear the Temple Mount for a 3rd Jewish temple, this could mean the end of the state of Israel. For enraged Muslim armies and militias could attack Israel en masse in an all-out jihad and defeat it completely. While the ultra-Orthodox Jews are no doubt aware of this danger, they believe that the 3rd temple must nonetheless be built exactly where the prior temples stood: right over the Rock of Sacrifice (the Rock of the Dome of the Rock) on which Abraham almost sacrificed Isaac. And the ultra-Orthodox Jews could be brought to the point where they will even desire to see the end of the current, secular state of Israel, believing that only in its demise will God make it possible for them to establish a new, perfectly ultra-Orthodox, theocratic state of Israel.

Something that could bring the ultra-Orthodox Jews to this point would be them getting squeezed out of their settlements in Samaria and Judaea (also called the West Bank), and in East Jerusalem, as part of a peace deal handing these areas over to a Palestinian state. For the ultra-Orthodox Jews (rightly) see Samaria, Judaea, and Jerusalem as the historically most important and holy parts of the land promised by God to Israel since the time of Abraham (Exodus 32:13). So when they start to get squeezed out of these areas, in a rage they could suddenly mass in their tens of thousands, armed with machine guns (which they're allowed to have for self-defense against the Palestinians). And led by 3 huge bulldozers, they could march as a great army to the Old City of Jerusalem, and go up onto the Temple Mount and destroy the Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa Mosque (or simply clear way their rubble, if they've already been destroyed by great earthquakes by that time).

Besides getting squeezed out of their settlements, something else that could tip the scales toward this happening would be the rising up of a false, miracle-working, ultra-Orthodox Jewish "Messiah" (cf. Matthew 24:24), who could tell the ultra-Orthodox Jews something like:

"God says that now is the time for us to take back religious control of the Holy Temple Mount, and rid it of all the detestable shrines which the Muslims have placed upon it. We are to sanctify it in the name of our God, so that we might rebuild His Holy Temple there. Listen, my brethren, fear not the Muslims' reaction when we retake religious control of the Holy Temple Mount. For God Himself is with us. He will protect us perfectly. Have I not shown you His mighty Power working through Me? Fear not any men, but fear only our Mighty God, who now commands us to rebuild His Holy Temple at the place He determined from the time of our Father Abraham. Our God gave us back the Holy Temple Mount way back in 1967 C.E. But what have we done with it over all the time since then? Nothing! How can this be? How can we have allowed some merely-secular, so-called 'Israeli' government invented by sinful men to keep us, God's holy people, from even setting foot back on the Temple Mount? Let us rise up, my brethren! Let us all rise up, in the name of our God, and let us do mighty exploits to the Glory of His Holy Name!"

Something else that could help tip the scales regarding the ultra-Orthodox Jews in Israel becoming violent is their finding out the location of the Ark of the Covenant, which could be buried under an ancient ruined fort in the desert east of Jerusalem. The Copper Scroll could contain the clues as to where the Ark is buried in the fort (e.g. "under the third step"). The Ark could have been located there already with ground-penetrating radar by some non-religious treasure hunters, but the Israeli government could be holding up a digging permit to retrieve the Ark because the government is afraid that the ultra-Orthodox Jews could see the discovery of the Ark as (in their words) "an unmistakable sign from God that now is the time for us to rebuild His Holy Temple". So the Israeli government has a motive to keep the location of the buried Ark top secret.

Jipsah said in post 71:

and has the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist . . .

Like the android figure of Lincoln at Disneyland.

Yes, but much more advanced and lifelike.

Jipsah said in post 71:

As there's no "the antichrist" in Scripture, I don't see that as a problem.

Note that the idea of the individual-man Antichrist doesn't have to be explicitly referred to in scripture as "the Antichrist", in order for it to be true and supported by scripture (see the references in post 58), just as, for example, the idea of the Trinity doesn't have to be explicitly referred to in scripture as "the Trinity", in order for it to be true and supported by scripture (e.g. Matthew 28:19, John 1:1,14, Acts 5:3-4).

 

[Bible2]

Jipsah said in post 73:

Androids and all? Literally?

Yes. For the original Greek word (eikon, G1504) translated as the "image" of the beast (Revelation 13:15) means something made in the likeness of something else, such as the image of a man engraved on a coin (Luke 20:24). So an android made in the likeness of the Antichrist could be referred to in the Greek as being an "eikon" of the Antichrist. That is, the "image (eikon) of the beast" (Revelation 13:15) could be an android image of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast). The Antichrist's False Prophet (Revelation 13:11-16, Revelation 19:20) could cause it to be made after the Antichrist receives a terrible head wound (Revelation 13:3,14b). For this injury could leave the Antichrist's facial and bodily appearance permanently marred, and could render him unable to speak clearly, like someone after a bad stroke, so that the Antichrist won't want to appear or speak in public again.

Did you ever see that movie "Dave"? It had a President who was in a coma, so his handlers found a regular guy who looked exactly like the President, and had him be a public stand-in for the President. He was able to speak just like the President did. It could be like that with the Antichrist's image. It could be the Antichrist's "Dave", his double, that appears and speaks (Revelation 13:15) before the world instead of his wounded self. But instead of letting people think that the Antichrist's android image is the Antichrist himself, the False Prophet could tell people from the beginning that the image isn't the Antichrist himself, but still fully represents him.

In Revelation 13:15, the original Greek word translated as "life" or "breath" (pneuma, G4151) can mean "spirit" in the sense of consciousness (1 Corinthians 2:11a, Luke 1:47), so that the android could appear to have a spirit, to have consciousness. The way this could be achieved would be through the android having wireless connections to huge banks of supercomputers running advanced artificial intelligence software. The False Prophet could claim that the Antichrist's consciousness dwells within the android by means of neural networks imprinted with the Antichrist's brain patterns. But this could be a lie, in that the android won't actually have the Antichrist's consciousness, or any true consciousness, but will only appear to have consciousness, by its being able to pass even the most stringent Turing Test. This is a test whereby one speaks with a computer and can't tell whether it has consciousness or not, because all of its answers are the same as if it had consciousness.

But the android's "consciousness" could appear far more advanced than any human's, for it could have access to huge databases containing every fact known to man, so that the android will appear to be omniscient. In this way, it could convince the world that it's not just a machine, but a material incarnation, a machine avatar, of the true God, a literal "deus ex machina", a literal "God from a machine". And this machine "God" could boast not only of his mental powers, but also of his physical powers: he could be extremely strong. And he could boast of the "immortality" of his machine body, which could be made of titanium, covered with some practically-everlasting flesh-like silicone. People could just be completely awestruck by his (what they could call) "omniscient wisdom, his strength, his indestructibility". They could consider him more than worthy of worship by (in their words) "mere humanity, which is so mentally and physically limited, made out of mere flesh and blood, which is so weak and so mortal". The world will actually worship the Antichrist's image (Revelation 13:15), just as it will actually worship Lucifer (the dragon, Satan) and the Antichrist (Revelation 13:4,8, Revelation 12:9).

The Antichrist's image could be placed standing in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem, so that the image will become the abomination of desolation (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31). And in order to make it easy for everyone in the world to be able to see the image and worship it (Revelation 13:15), it could appear on every cell phone, television, computer, GPS navigation system, and electronic billboard at set times each day. And to make it possible for everyone to interact with it personally, it could appear as a computer generated image on each individual's cell phone, speaking in and understanding each individual's language, conversing with each individual with personalized messages and responses devised by supercomputers running artificial intelligence and language software.

And it could discuss with them even the most intimate details of their lives, for it could have access to huge databases compiled by the Antichrist's worldwide intelligence, law enforcement, economic, and health agencies, databases containing all the facts about everyone: who their family and friends are, where they live and work, who their neighbors and coworkers are, how much they make, what cars and properties they own and use, where they go, where they shop, what they buy, where they eat out, what shows and videos they watch, what they read, what they say, what they write on the internet, what their health problems are, etc., so that the Antichrist's image could seem to know everything about everyone.

And the worship of the image could be connected with a daily surveillance and subjugation of everyone. For the image's supercomputers could make his image automatically appear on everyone's cell phone at set times every day to be worshipped. And cell phones contain GPS chips which can be secretly pinged in order to determine the exact location of the cell phones. So when the image appears on everyone's cell phone, the image's supercomputers could ping the GPS chip of everyone's cell phone and know exactly where everyone is.

Also, cell phones contain cameras and microphones, which can be remotely opened secretly in order to see and hear what's going on around the cell phones. So when the image appears on everyone's cell phone, the image's supercomputers could open the cameras and microphones of everyone's cell phone to determine what everyone is doing and saying, and the image could then demand that the individuals worship him as God, saying some set prayer of praise and adoration. And if any individual refuses, the image's supercomputers could detect that individual's noncompliance, and notify the nearest police officers of that individual's exact location, and order the officers to arrest that individual for blasphemy and treason. The offending individual could then be given a chance to be "reformed" (i.e. in a brainwashing camp, or through physical torture, if necessary), but if he proves recalcitrant, he will be executed (Revelation 13:15) by being beheaded (Revelation 20:4).

The beheading process itself could be made into a televised and webcasted spectacle, to serve not only as a dire warning to anyone thinking of refusing to worship the image, but also to serve as an amazingly-horrific entertainment for the masses, like how the ancient Romans made it an entertainment for the masses to gather them into the Colosseum in Rome and let them watch Christians being thrown to lions and devoured alive.

Colossal beheading structures could be built, by which twenty "traitors" could be beheaded at one time by one fall of one blade. The "traitors" could be bound in a row along an upright "U"-shaped device with a track for a huge guillotine blade, which could start out in a resting position at the top of one side. The blade could be so massive and so sharp, that when it's released, it will easily slice down through 10 necks on one side of the "U" and continue on by its own momentum up the other side of the "U", shearing off another 10 heads. This all could happen so quickly that it will appear as if all 20 heads are struck off almost in unison, followed immediately by 20 geysers of blood rushing out in unison for all the Antichrist's "faithful" to gawk at and cheer over in the comfort of their own homes before their televisions, computers, and web-enabled devices.

Also, immediately after the show is over, at the site where it took place, teams of surgeons could rush in to "harvest" all the fresh organs and other body parts from the beheaded bodies to be used for transplants (beheading being the best way for a body to die if you want to harvest its parts). What's left of the bodies could then be stuffed into shipping containers, which, once full, could be stacked like stones into a gigantic Pyramid of Death, which could eventually reach some 30 stories high and contain millions of bodies. A huge plaque could be erected in front of the pyramid that will read: "This is a monument to the shame of YHWH, who created everything to die". (Of course, the truth is that he didn't, for Adam and Eve were created immortal; it wasn't until they sinned that they became mortal: Genesis 2:17. And YHWH will restore immortality to saved humans through Jesus Christ: Romans 6:23.) Also, any such plaque would be hypocritical, for it will be the Antichrist who will have murdered the people in the Pyramid, not YHWH.

Regarding the worship of the Antichrist's image, to help foster a group dynamic, every neighborhood and village in the world could be helped to create a group worship center in which everyone in that neighborhood or village will have to gather together at a set time each evening to bow down and prostrate himself or herself before a life-size, lifelike image of the Antichrist, which could be a computer-generated, animated, holographic or widescreen 3D HDTV image of him clothed in beautiful golden robes and standing majestically before them (or sitting on a magnificent golden throne), and speaking computer-generated customized messages to them as a group.

This worship could be accompanied by the most beautiful symphonic music (cf. Daniel 3:5), or whatever is the most beautiful music to the local people, to help them (in the words of the Antichrist's propaganda machine) "be uplifted into the true spirit of praise and worship of our gracious Lord and Master. Praised be His Majestic Name forever and ever!", etc. And what with the wonderful music, and all their fellow worshippers around them, and customized messages of encouragement spoken in a deep, soothing voice by a life-size, holographic or 3D HDTV image of the Antichrist, to certain members of each "worship group", it could be that some people in each group will start to really get into the evening worship sessions, and even begin to (in their words) "truly feel the Living Presence of our loving God among us, loving us so tenderly, so personally! Oh, how I love Him! He is So Great!"

But the world's worship of the Antichrist's image (Revelation 13:15), no matter how blissful it may become for some people, and the world's worship of the Antichrist and Lucifer (Satan) the dragon (Revelation 13:4, Revelation 12:9), will last for less than 4 years (Revelation 13:5, Daniel 12:11-12) before Jesus Christ returns from heaven and completely defeats the Antichrist and Lucifer (Revelation 19:20 to 20:3), and Jesus then sets up his own, 1,000-year physical kingdom on the earth with the bodily resurrected church (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).

 

[Bible2]

Interplanner said in post 76:

If literal is ordinary sense, the most literal reading of Mt 24 & //s is that they refer to what happened to them in that generation until you get to the 'immediately after this' point of v29.

It is confusing, bizarre, and fantastical to think that this kind of warning and instruction was given to them but actually was meant to be about things thousands of years in the future.

Just as partial preterism admits that Matthew 24:30 was about thousands of years in the future, so partial preterism should be able to admit that Matthew 24:34 refers to the fulfillment of "all these things", all the events of the tribulation and Jesus' 2nd coming and the gathering together (rapture) of the church "immediately after" the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31; cf. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, Revelation 19:2 to 20:6), which events Jesus had just finished describing in Matthew 24:2-31, and which he would later show in great detail in Revelation chapters 6 to 19. Matthew 24:34 didn't mean that the tribulation, 2nd coming, and rapture would be fulfilled during the temporal generation alive at the time of Jesus' first coming, for none of those things was fulfilled during that temporal generation.

Instead, Matthew 24:34 could mean that the temporal generation which would see the 1948 AD reestablishment of Israel, which could be symbolized by the rebudding of the fig tree (Matthew 24:32-34, Hosea 9:10, Joel 1:6-7, Luke 13:6-9, Matthew 21:19,43), won't pass, i.e. won't die off completely, until the future tribulation and 2nd coming of Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 19 are fulfilled. A temporal generation may not pass until 70 or 80 years (Psalms 90:10), or 120 years (Genesis 6:3).

This doesn't require that the 2nd coming will occur right before, like one year before, that generation will pass: i.e. 69, or 79, or 119 years after 1948: in 2017, 2027, or 2067. And if the tribulation which will immediately precede the 2nd coming and rapture (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6) will last 7 years (Daniel 9:27), the tribulation's first year didn't have to be in 2011, and won't have to be in 2021, or 2061, but could be in a future year (e.g. 2020) earlier than 2021.

Matthew 24:34 could also include the meaning that the figurative, all-times generation of the elect (Matthew 24:22, Luke 16:8b, Colossians 3:12; 1 Thessalonians 1:4) won't pass away from the earth during the future tribulation of Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 18, but that some of the elect will survive (Matthew 24:22) until Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53) "immediately after" the tribulation of Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 18 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

~

The rebudding of the fig tree (Matthew 24:32) can refer to the 1948 reestablishment of Israel, just as Jesus' cursing of the fig tree (Matthew 21:19) was symbolic of his curse on unbelieving, Old Covenant Israel (Matthew 21:43). The Israel that was reestablished in 1948 is the same Old Covenant Israel that Jesus cursed at his first coming, for it still rejects Jesus and still considers itself to be under the Old Covenant. This Israel merely "putting forth leaves" again (Matthew 24:32) in 1948 was nothing more than a restoration to what the fig tree in Matthew 21:19,43 had been before it was cursed forever by Jesus and then destroyed in 70 AD: a tree with leaves, but without any fruit. And the unbelieving, Old Covenant Israel that was reestablished in 1948 may never bear fruit, for it could be destroyed before Jesus' 2nd coming, during a future war, by a Baathist army, just as it had been destroyed in 70 AD by a Roman army.

Interplanner said in post 76:

If literal is ordinary sense, the most literal reading of Mt 24 & //s is that they refer to what happened to them in that generation until you get to the 'immediately after this' point of v29.

Note that just as the highly detailed tribulation events of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 find no historical fulfillment, so the tribulation events of Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 find no historical fulfillment. For example, Luke 21:24 refers to the same future treading down of Jerusalem by the Gentiles as Revelation 11:2b, during the Antichrist's future, literal 42-month worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18), the details of which time period are shown from 4 different angles in Revelation chapters 11 to 14 (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5,7, Revelation 14:9-13). The myriad details of these chapters have never been fulfilled. Similarly, Jesus' 2nd coming and the church's gathering together (rapture) in Matthew 24:30-31 (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) have never been fulfilled, but must occur "immediately after" the future tribulation of Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21, and Revelation chapters 6 to 18 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:2 to 20:6).

Also, the end of Herod's temple building (also called the 2nd temple building) in 70 AD didn't fulfill Matthew 24:2. For the stones of the 2nd temple's Western Wall (also called the Wailing Wall) still stand today one on top of the other, just as they did when Jesus spoke that prophecy. Matthew 24:2 included the Wailing Wall, for Matthew 24:2 wasn't referring to only the single 2nd temple building in the center of the Temple Mount (the building that contained the holy place and the most holy place), but was referring to "all these things", all the plural "buildings"/structures/oikodome (G3619) of the entire 2nd-temple complex (Matthew 24:1). Indeed, Matthew 24:2 could even have been spoken just to the north and west of the Wailing Wall, for it was spoken just after Jesus had departed from the temple complex (Matthew 24:1), and one of the main temple-complex exits (called Wilson's Arch and bridge by archaeologists) was just to the north of the Wailing Wall and at the same level as the top of the Temple Mount (see the temple-complex map-insert in the December, 2008 issue of National Geographic magazine).

Also, in Matthew 24:2, the "here" can include not just the entire 2nd-temple complex, but every structure throughout Jerusalem. For the similar statement in Luke 19:44 applied to the whole city (Luke 19:41-44). Matthew 24:2 and Luke 19:44 could be fulfilled at the very end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, right before and at Jesus' 2nd coming (Zechariah 14:2-21, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

 

[Bible2]

gasman64 said in post 77:

You will be in your own personal version of "Left behind" Start doomsday pepping now. You won't do well in the wild I would think.

Biblical Christians won't do well even in the cities, during the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 13:4-18). Regarding "doomsday prepping", Isaiah 26:20-21 can be addressing those Biblical Christians who will still be alive on the earth at the time of the 7 vials of God's wrath (Revelation 16), the final stage of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. These Biblical Christians will still be waiting for Jesus' coming as a thief (Revelation 16:15). And Isaiah 26:20 can refer to them going into protective chambers which they will have prepared for themselves on the earth, just as Noah and his family went into the protective ark which they had prepared for themselves on the earth (Genesis 7:7).

Also, nothing forbids believers from preparing these chambers now, and hiding in them out in the wilderness at some point in our future (Revelation 12:6a), not only during the time of the 7 vials, but also during the preceding, literal 3.5 years (Revelation 12:6b) of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18). For his reign will involve the wrath of Satan coming against those in the church who will still be alive on the earth at that time (Revelation 12:17, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

One way for believers to prepare these chambers would be for them to bury old shipping containers. Shipping and trucking companies could have such shipping containers stacked up in their back lots ready to sell cheap to anyone who will take them off their hands.

Once you have a few 50-foot shipping containers at your wilderness site, you can rent a bulldozer for a few days and dig big trenches in which to bury the shipping containers. The trenches need to be deep enough so that once you've put the shipping containers into them you can pile 6 feet of dirt on top of the containers. For that much dirt is required to stop radiation from any nuclear fallout from reaching the containers. Also, 6 feet of dirt will serve as great insulation, so that no matter how hot or cold it gets on the surface, the shipping containers will always remain at a pleasant 20 degrees Celsius (68 degrees Fahrenheit) all year 'round.

Once you've put the shipping containers in the trenches, you can cut a manhole in the center of the top of each container, and then cut two smaller, 6-inch ventilation holes in the top of each end of each container. Then you can attach to each manhole a 7-foot-long vertical pipe with the same diameter as the manhole, and attach to each ventilation hole a 7-foot-long vertical pipe with the same diameter as the ventilation hole. Then you can use the bulldozer to carefully bury the containers, without breaking off the vertical pipes.

Then you can place a long, extendable, 14-foot ladder down the manhole pipe of each container. And you can go down into each container and place a small battery-powered fan inside one of its ventilation holes, to be turned on whenever fresh air is needed in the container. Your containers will then be all set to start stocking with canned food, water, bedding, batteries, and all other needed supplies whenever you want to do that. You will then need to secure the top of each manhole pipe with some sort of thick metal or thick PVC-like, perhaps screw-on, cover that can be locked from both the outside when you're away from the container, and from the inside when you're in the container. To keep any radioactive dust or ash from entering very far in the ventilation pipes, you can place a cylindrical air filter near the top of each pipe. And to keep rain, insects, and small animals from entering the pipes and affecting the filters, you can place a screen and side-vented cap over the top of each pipe. Another thing to worry about is floodwater pouring into the pipes. So your wilderness site shouldn't be in a floodplain, but on high-enough ground where it won't be flooded.

Because one of the reasons to go underground is to be hidden out of sight of hostile people during the Antichrist's worldwide reign, you will want to restore the surface of the ground above the buried containers so that it, as much as possible, appears like it did before you began digging. The tops of the manhole and ventilation pipes of each container will need to be camouflaged with brush, so that any hostile people passing by won't notice them. Also, in case some hostile people with dogs happen to pass by while you're hiding inside a container, you will need to place some long-dead (non-smelling) carcass of a small animal near enough to each ventilation pipe so that if the dogs pick up the scent of you and your family and pets emanating from a ventilation pipe, the hostile people with the dogs will think that their dogs are just interested in the carcass of the animal, and won't start rummaging through the brush and discover the ventilation pipe.

Besides camouflaging your underground hideout so that no hostile people will even notice it during the Antichrist's worldwide reign (in the tribulation's 2nd half), before the tribulation even begins and you're still thinking about where in the wilderness to prepare your hideout, you will need to be very circumspect about who you tell about your plans. You will want to tell only those people who are completely committed to joining you in hiding in your containers during the Antichrist's worldwide reign. For if you get any other people involved in knowing before the Antichrist's worldwide reign where your hideout is located, during the Antichrist's worldwide reign those same people could be captured by the Antichrist's police or soldiers and under torture or interrogation drugs tell them the location of your hideout. Or those same people, even if they're not captured, could start to get very hungry during the Antichrist's worldwide reign, and so could decide to go out to your hideout and demand to be fed with your supplies, even though you didn't store up enough for them because before the tribulation they'd said that they definitely weren't going to join you in your hideout.

Another thing to remember is that even before the Antichrist's worldwide reign, even when communicating with those who are completely committed to joining you in your hideout during the Antichrist's worldwide reign, you must never refer to the location of your hideout over the internet or over a cell phone or landline phone, or even in your car or home, as all of these could be currently tapped and recorded by intelligence or law enforcement agencies, and their surveillance records could later be searched by the Antichrist's police or soldiers to determine the location of your hideout. For the same reason, you mustn't have any device with a GPS chip (such as a cell phone, tablet computer, laptop computer, OnStar, LoJack, Garmin, TomTom, etc.) with you when you're out at your hideout, as the GPS chip could be secretly pinged remotely in order to determine your hideout's location. You will also need to have your car, shoes, clothing, and all supplies intended for your hideout electronically swept for any GPS chips covertly placed in them by intelligence or law enforcement agencies.

More generally, during the tribulation, as now, whenever you want to keep your cell phone with you but at the same time want to avoid having your movements tracked through it, place it in a small box, like a cigar box, and wrap the box completely with foil, so that no cell phone signals can reach the cell phone. To make sure that there are no tiny gaps or tears in the foil through which signals can enter, once the cell phone is in the foil-wrapped box, call it from another phone and see if it rings. If it does, hang up, wrap the box with a 2nd layer of foil and call again. If the cell phone doesn't ring, that means no signals can reach it, and so your movements can't be tracked through it.

And when you make your final trip out to your hideout, when you will begin hiding there during the Antichrist's worldwide reign, you will need to abandon your car miles away from your hideout and walk the rest of the way, as otherwise your car could catch the attention of any passing hostile people or patrolling drone aircraft. And even if you abandon your car miles away from you hideout, you will still want to camouflage it with brush to avoid it being seen and starting a general search of the area. Or, if there's not enough brush with which to camouflage it, you can let the air out of one of its tires which is visible from the road, so that people passing on the road will think that your car was left there only because it got a flat tire.

Some people think that everyone in the cities will try to go out into the wilderness during the tribulation. But that may not be the case, for almost all people in the cities don't have hunting/fishing and other wilderness survival skills, and won't know of any well-stocked hideouts in the wilderness, and so they won't think that there's any food out there, or that they will be able to construct any decent shelter out there. They will think of the wilderness as being only barren ground and brush, rocks, trees, and mountains, and so they will stay in the cities where they have some chance of finding food. And if the cities come under martial law, they could become the safest places to be, as the military could bring order to them and supply them with emergency food and water. And the cities have plenty of shelter.

But martial law will cut both ways in that once the Antichrist takes over everything (Revelation 13:7-18), the cities could become, in effect, huge military prisons, where people will have to receive the Antichrist's mark on their right hand or forehead if they want to be able to buy any food (Revelation 13:16-17). And everyone will have to worship Lucifer (the dragon, Satan) and the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) (Revelation 13:4-10, Revelation 12:9) and a speaking image of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:15) if they don't want to be beheaded (Revelation 20:4). Believers must be willing to be beheaded, for if they go ahead and take the mark and worship Lucifer, and the Antichrist, and his image, they will ultimately lose their salvation and suffer eternally in fire and brimstone (Revelation 14:9-14).

Believers shouldn't assume that they will necessarily be able to stand up well under the hunger (and possibly torture) and beheading which will be imposed on believers trapped within the cities during the Antichrist's worldwide reign. Many believers could eventually give in and take the mark when their hunger and the hunger of their crying little ones reaches a certain point (Isaiah 8:21-22). And they could give in and worship Lucifer, and the Antichrist, and his image, when they're confronted with they and their little ones being tortured and beheaded if they don't do those things. It will be much, much better for believers to avoid these horrors by fleeing into prepared places in the wilderness right before the Antichrist's 3.5-year worldwide reign of terror begins (Revelation 12:6, Matthew 24:15-16).

 

[gasman64]

B2, do you actually have a couple of underground storehouses? Why would you need it if you are going to be one of the raptured?

 

[Gnarwhal]

B2, do you actually have a couple of underground storehouses? Why would you need it if you are going to be one of the raptured?

My in-laws bought some property about 15 years ago in the arm pit of Northern California because my mother-in-law convinced my father-in-law that Y2K was going to be the end of the world. They stockpiled my father-in-laws machine shop on the property with seven years of food supplies for their family, ya know, in case the whole rapture thing doesn't pan out and they're stuck here for the "tribulation".

Such a load of rubbish.

 

[Douggg]

My in-laws bought some property about 15 years ago in the arm pit of Northern California because my mother-in-law convinced my father-in-law that Y2K was going to be the end of the world. They stockpiled my father-in-laws machine shop on the property with seven years of food supplies for their family, ya know, in case the whole rapture thing doesn't pan out and they're stuck here for the "tribulation".

Such a load of rubbish.

What is rubbish?

 

[Gnarwhal]

What is rubbish?

Whatever worldview my in-laws have that compelled them to do something as looney as what I mentioned in my last post.

 

[Bible2]

gasman64 said in post 93:

B2, do you actually have a couple of underground storehouses? Why would you need it if you are going to be one of the raptured?

Because Jesus won't come and gather together (rapture) the church until immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). That's why the marriage of the church doesn't happen until Revelation 19:7, in connection with Jesus' 2nd coming and the bodily resurrection of the church at that time (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16). Matthew 24:30-31 refers to the same 2nd coming of Jesus and gathering together (rapture) of the church as 2 Thessalonians 2:1, which refers to the same 2nd coming of Jesus and catching up together (rapture) of the church as 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17.

Jesus won't return and gather together (rapture) the church until sometime after there's a falling away (an apostasy) in the church, and the Antichrist sits in a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaims himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4, Daniel 11:31,36, Revelation 11:1-2, Revelation 13:4-8), and the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the 3rd Jewish temple (Matthew 24:15-31, Daniel 11:31). For when Jesus returns to gather together (and marry) the church he will destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1,8, Revelation 19:7,20). Before Jesus returns, the church will have to go through the future, literal 3.5 years of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-31).

At Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30), the church will be resurrected and caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31), not to remove the church from the earth (Proverbs 10:30, John 17:15,20), but to take the church only as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

At that meeting, Jesus will judge everyone in the church (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27) by their works (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:19-30). And then Jesus will marry in the clouds the obedient part of the church (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12), those in the church (of all times) who "overcame" (Revelation 3:5). They will then mount white horses and come back down from the sky (the first heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:14) as he defeats the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) and all the world's armies (Revelation 19:15-21). Jesus will then make the marriage supper of Revelation 19:9 for the resurrected and married obedient part of the church in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54). Jesus and the obedient part of the church will then reign on the earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).

 

[Douggg]

Whatever worldview my in-laws have that compelled them to do something as looney as what I mentioned in my last post.

I wouldn't say that they were looney. I think that they may have had some concerns about the timing of the rapture. And were taking precautions, the best they could. Although the notion that somewhere in California would offer a safe heaven is pretty unrealistic imo.

What they must have believed is that the end times difficulties were close. That's pretty biblical. Yet I don't think anyone should quit their job tommorrow, sell the house, and go hole up in a cave somewhere.

I am not advocating that Christians go and make refuge hideaways. But I can understand their rationale.


Doug

 

[gasman64]

Because Jesus won't come and gather together (rapture) the church until immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). That's why the marriage of the church doesn't happen until Revelation 19:7, in connection with Jesus' 2nd coming and the bodily resurrection of the church at that time (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16). Matthew 24:30-31 refers to the same 2nd coming of Jesus and gathering together (rapture) of the church as 2 Thessalonians 2:1, which refers to the same 2nd coming of Jesus and catching up together (rapture) of the church as 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17.

Jesus won't return and gather together (rapture) the church until sometime after there's a falling away (an apostasy) in the church, and the Antichrist sits in a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaims himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4, Daniel 11:31,36, Revelation 11:1-2, Revelation 13:4-8), and the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the 3rd Jewish temple (Matthew 24:15-31, Daniel 11:31). For when Jesus returns to gather together (and marry) the church he will destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1,8, Revelation 19:7,20). Before Jesus returns, the church will have to go through the future, literal 3.5 years of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-31).

At Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30), the church will be resurrected and caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31), not to remove the church from the earth (Proverbs 10:30, John 17:15,20), but to take the church only as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

At that meeting, Jesus will judge everyone in the church (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27) by their works (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:19-30). And then Jesus will marry in the clouds the obedient part of the church (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12), those in the church (of all times) who "overcame" (Revelation 3:5). They will then mount white horses and come back down from the sky (the first heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:14) as he defeats the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) and all the world's armies (Revelation 19:15-21). Jesus will then make the marriage supper of Revelation 19:9 for the resurrected and married obedient part of the church in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54). Jesus and the obedient part of the church will then reign on the earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).

While I appreciate the shortness of your answer...you didn't really address the question.

 

[Interplanner]

B2 doesn't listen, doesn't know what others are saying, most of the time, MrGas, but he is definitely "short"!

B2: when you read the material historically, as they heard it, you realize that the 2nd coming was expected right after the ordeal in Judea in the 1st century--with an allowance. The allowance was that the Father alone would decide when. Check most church historians (for ex., K. Latourrette) and you will find that that is the understanding of this material. The document, when finalized, had to express both dimensions: the immediacy and the allowance.

You don't seem to know how to listen, so you zip off to the future on one of your Bible verse whirlwinds, and miss out on discussion.

as for the 2nd part of responding to my literal = ordinary comment (I only read your first lines because so much of it is non-listening), the reason you 'find no historical fulfillment' is because you don't know any (history). It is impossible to extricate Luke from the historical moment. I don't mean Luke 21, I mean the whole book. I notice you are one of many who bothered not to comment on my 'Luke on the DofJ' thread because it has as much overwhelming historic force as a temple stone landing on you.

2nd, there are legitimate historical readings that show that the visions of Rev have to do with that as well. see the thread, just recently brought forward, 'the woman on the beast.' It is an audio link.

The most accurate understanding of the material is 1st its own historical setting, and then any replication it might have in our time.

On history, find W. Keller's THE BIBLE AS HISTORY which has a chapter on the war. L. Gaston's NO STONE ON ANOTHER is about as historical a reading as you will ever find. Rhoads' ISRAEL IN REVOLUTION 6--73 CE shows what the interactions with the Galileans meant for Jesus' ministry. And let's not forget the most intriguing historical comment: Josephus on Dan 9, which is a thread here as well.