The Beast, The Mark, Biometric ID's, Immigration Legislation, and E-Verify

[Jeraxel]

Hello,
This is my first post on this site, and I am unsure of all your etiquette here, so please pardon me if I do anything incorrect. I have posted this under the “Christian Currant Affairs” section as it seems to be the most logical place for it, but feel free to move it as required. This issue has caused myself and my family a lot of strife over the last three years, and I really need some guidance, support, or to have any problems with my logic and understanding pointed out to me.


First off, I am a Lutheran, and the Lutheran Church is not very vocal on their stances regarding the “End times”. I used to follow Futurism, not knowing any better, but it never really jived with Luther's remarks regarding the “antichrist”. So I dug, and finally learned about Historicism.


I assume that some here will know what I mean by Futurism and Historicism, and some may not, so to just quickly sum it up:


Futurism: Teaches that there will be a 7 year future tribulation period, during which an antichrist “man” will come to power, make a middle east peace treaty, and install the “mark”. Futurism was written by Jesuit Theologian Francisco Ribera as part of the Protestant Counter-reformation coming from the Council of Trent. This is the most common school of belief in modern day Christianity.


Preterism: Teaches that most of Daniel and Revelation have been fulfilled in Nero Claudius Caesar Augustus Germanicus and Antiochus IV Epiphanes. This is the version of eschatology presently held by the Roman Catholic Church, and also results from Protestant Counter-reformation and the Council of Trent. This doctrine was written by Jesuit Theologian Luis del Alcázar.


Historicism: Teaches that the “End Times” encompasses the entire “Age of the Church” beginning with the end of the “Age of the Jews” in 70AD, and continuing on until the return of Christ. It does not teach that there is a single person “antichrist”, but there is a single position of a man that is referred to as being the “Little Horn” or “Man of Sin”. There is no known “writer” of Historicism, Luther only stated parts of it, but from all the reference material I can find, all the original protestant founders believed in this version of interpretation. Sir Issac Newton was also a Historicist.


With that in mind, as I stated above, I used to be a Futurist, I am VERY familiar with Futurism, I believe it is exactly what it was written to be (counter-reformation propaganda), and giving me dogma based on the school of Futurism is not going to be very helpful.


I was raised to be a Christian here in America, I was also raised to be patriotic, and supportive of the military. I worked in the Aviation Industry and was required to give my fingerprints for US Customs. I also worked in the IT industry as a software/database developer. Yet now I find this HUGE conflict that is driving me crazy, has caused me to voluntarily surrender my Drivers License, is causing a tremendous amount of strife in my life and that of my family, and which I am finding is being supported by the very people who should be fighting this problem, conservative Christians.

Here is the problem:

According to Historicism, “Beasts” are ALWAYS “Kingdoms”, and this makes sense if you read Daniel. The Angel himself states that not only the levels of the statue in King Nebuchadnezzar's dream, but also the later beasts of Daniel 7 are all world dominating superpowers of their day. John used this exact same prophetic language in the writing of revelation, so it makes zero sense to switch the last two “Beasts” from countries to men (antichrist and false prophet). Now, the “Little Horn” is a man, more correctly its a “station of men”, and matches verbatim with the position of the “Pontifex Maximus” , later called the “Holy Pontiff”(sets the calendar, speaks as Gods voice on Earth, sets Jus divinum, etc). The last “Beast” of Revelation seems to also match verbatim with the United States...


John Wesley (father of the modern Methodist Church) working on his “Explanatory Notes” in 1760, wrote:

“Another . . . beast .... But he is not yet come, though he cannot be far off; for he is to appear at the end of the forty-two months of the first beast. And he had two horns like a lamb–a mild, innocent appearance”.

So he understood that the final beast (superpower) was going to start off as a meek country sometime around 1760. Obviously the US became in independent nation in 1776, started off as a “meek” christian based country, had no royalty (horns with no crowns), came out of the empty “land” as opposed to the “sea of people and nations”, is very much based on the Roman system of politics and laws, and was even the first to “call fire from the heavens” by being the first superpower to use atomic weapons. Now I fear we are implementing the “Mark”.


So here we come to the “Current events” part...


The Real ID Act an International Biometric ID System:
Most don't seem to understand exactly what is going on with this act, or what it's actual purpose is. Some believe that is has been a “failure”, and its even stated as such in Wikipedia. Some believe that their state has passed legislation against the Real ID, and its not being implemented...


All these things are incorrect.

1. The Real ID is the first International Biometric ID system to ever be produced in the history of the world. The United Nations set standards under their International Civil Aviation Organization for collection of biometrics used for the E-Passport system. The Real ID uses these same biometric standards (ICAO format).
2. In the same manner that all but a handful of countries are engaged in the same central banking scheme as the US, despite issuing their own currency (this is why you can trade currencies, what is printed on the actual note is meaningless), they are also engaged in world wide push for intentional biometric tracking. As of writing this, there are only a handful of countries left who are not issuing mandatory biometric National ID Cards, Drivers Licenses, Passports, or Visa's. Some countries such as India are collecting facial recognition, fingerprints, and retina scans. This means that if your country is issuing biometrics, and you decide to go to another one that isn't, you still have to submit to a biometric scan before being issued a passport or visa to go there.
3. All states in the US are presently complying with the Real ID Act for fear of losing federal funding, or the ability of their citizens to enter federal buildings and fly. States that passed Anti-Real ID legislation have still complied with the basic “benchmarks” either through issuing their own “Enhanced ID's” (Arizona, Michigan, etc), or have bypassed the laws by changing DMV internal procedures (OK, MO, etc). Missouri was caught by their public enacting the Real ID illegally, and capitulated to no longer require documents (birth certificate, etc), but still requires facial biometrics. This is telling in the fact that the real intent here is to collect the biometrics, not to procure other documents that they generated to begin with.

“It is not widely known that all states in the United States are “capturing” a digital facial image/photograph that is facial recognition compatible.” -Mark Lerner co founder of the Constitutional Alliance

So what exactly is the Real ID and Facial Biometrics, and why do I believe it is the “Mark”?



According to Representative Sam E. Rohrer :

“Under REAL ID biometric facial recognition technology you become a number literally worn on your face - a number which is read by computer tracked by surveillance camera and distributed worldwide.”
Article:Sam E. Rohrer -- REAL ID: Connecting the dots to an International ID

This is coming from a US representative, not some crazy guy on the street corner holding a "the end is neigh" poster. This should send chills up the spine of every christian on the planet.


What a biometrics facial recognition scan is, is simply a “high resolution” picture (yes even the passport photo you get at your local drugstore is high enough resolution), that is then run through a piece of software, which breaks it down into a set of unique measurements (the unique “number of a man”). Those measurements become a “key” in a database that can then be used to quickly query millions of records a second. This means that it is used for “real time” tracking.


States such as Florida, specifically Hillsborough and Pinellas Counties have already installed facial recognition tracking cameras in intersections that are capable of reading your facial biometrics through the windshield of your moving car, then querying them against the DMV database and tracking your position. The FBI just received a $3billion dollar grant to install these cameras around the nation. This is why there is no real push to enact RFID chips, as it would cost billions to install the short range reader stations, as opposed to using already existing networked cameras that can read your biometrics without your knowledge in a crowd from hundreds of feet away. They can even read FR biometrics with airborne drones.


The presently debated “immigration bill” sponsored by McCain and friends, which I find disturbingly supported by conservative Christians, is aiming to make biometrics a requirement to be employed in the United States. While its not directly stated in the bill itself, other than the use of the term 'photo tool' (a code word for facial recognition), it does state that you will have to use E-Verify to apply for a job and prove citizenship. E-verify only accepts “Class B” documents that have been issued by the government, and contain a photo. As of now the only accepted government produced photo ID's are all using Facial Biometrics. This is the real reason for the push to get your photo on your voters registration card, which is the only “Class B” document without a biometric photo on it at this time. This is also why its the only “Class B” document not accepted by E-Verify.


I cannot even begin to tell you the number of federal and state laws this system is breaking. Your Constitutional Right to freedom of Religion, your Constitutional Right to be secure in your documents (including biometric) without a warrant issued on probable cause, religious freedom restoration act, many state constitutions, etc... Yet, no one has been able so far to win against this new system in court. Even the Mennonites and Amish, have for the first time in history, been denied their beliefs that photos constitute “graven images”, and had their “photo exemptions” removed...


Oddly enough, the DHS refers to the “gold star” they place on the new license or ID card as a DHS “Mark” in their “benchmark checklist”. I find that frightening considering that every other government agency refers to their “logo” as a “seal”.






Some other random issues:

1. It can't be the mark because I can ditch the license.
   While its true that you can ditch the license, you cannot remove your information from their database. You could just as easily remove a sub-dermal implanted RFID chip using an x-acto knife, and pitch it in the trashcan. You would simply be issued a new one, just like being issued a new license, because they have your information on file in their database system.
2. The Bible says it must be “in” your forehead or hand.
   Not really, what the bible says is “epi”, which has multiple translations. Until the 2000's the idea of your hand or face being “in” a database would not have made much sense, so it was translated with the present day understanding of the translators, and what made the most sense to them. Another translation of “epi” is “based on”, meaning a “mark based on your forehead or hand”. Based on the biometric measurements of your body.
3. But what about terrorists?
   If you are placing your faith in your government for your protection and survival, I suggest that you review whether your government is your god, or God is. Showing allegiance to a man made entity in trade for economic survival and/or physical protection really is what the “mark” is all about. You should be looking to God as Christians for protection, not to any man made organization.
4. What about illegal Aliens?
   Persecuting downtrodden people who are here “illegally” because they were born on the wrong side of some geopolitical “man made” map, persecuting the homeless because they “panhandle” or are “unsightly”, charging people ungodly sums of usury in an attempt to gain worldly wealth, feeling that you are “special” and “due a certain standard of life” because of where you were born, these are doctrines straight from the mouth of the dragon... Your status as a member of a first world nation does not equate to your being “privileged”, “special”, or “more loved/blessed by God”.
   
   We are all sinners equally, God loves us equally, and he sent his son to die for us all...
   Rather then Conservative Christians being worried that God is going to “punish” us over issues such as homosexuality, which is nothing more then the same adultery or fornication that many Christians hypocritically engage in themselves, maybe he's more upset with our treatment of the poor or “guests”? Christ said very little regarding sexual immorality, but he had a LOT to say about the treatment of the poor, sick, strangers, the charging of usury, Christians acting as pharisees, and general unkindness of man to man.

So with all this in mind...
Thoughts?

 

[Psalm 91]

So with all this in mind...
Thoughts?[/quote]


Welcome, Jeraxel,

I am not sure I have all the answers but first of all, the "futurism" you described is written in the Books of Daniel, Thessalonians and Revelation, with a few others mentioning it like Ezekiel and Luke, etc. They didn't need to be written by any theologian, unless he was just giving a concise statement to describe it. I don't understand at all what you mean by "counter-Reformation propaganda". It is Scriptural. The Scripture in Revelation states that the antichrist will be a man. I think that most disagreements between Christians has to do with the Rapture, which you didn't even mention. But we mostly agree that the antichrist will be a man, a leader. I have, in the past, wondered if it was a certain religion which would rise to power but as I said, the Bible states it will be a man.


I don't think that the U.S. is the last "beast". Yeah, we did use the first nuclear weapon of war, but I think that you are not focusing at all on who we used it against. In WWII we were losing 500 men a day. The kamikaze pilots were destroying our ships and our planes. I'm not saying I'm in favor of what was done, but my parents, who lived at that time, said, "It had to end!!" It wasn't so much us who killed all of those people but the Japanese leaders also were responsible.

Can you tell me what Scripture John Wesley used to cause him to think that a meek country would start up around 1760? I mean, how did he come up with that? Was he clairvoyant?

And yes, we have become an evil nation due to the leaders we have chosen in the last two administrations. But there are communist countries and countries which have elected terrorist dictators, as well as countries in the EU which have a very bloody past and murdered many of God's people. I realize that we are the most powerful country which has become the police of the world whereas there are countries which are just as powerful and yet they mind their own business. But NONE of the Bible scholars have stated what you have just stated about the last beast. Many of them are focused on the EU and some are focused on the Middle East and "the Assyrian". I mean, as far as John Wesley is concerned, look what happened to his meek little religion. It has become one of the most liberal religions on earth. I don't think he'd be pleased.

I agree with you about some things but the driver's license, though it's a means of obtaining money for the state and city, people do have to take a driving test to get one and that makes me feel a little safer. The driver's license has been a means of identifying victims of accidents, etc. and has been used for a very long time. Finger prints help in finding criminals. The state has my fingerprints from the '70's when I worked in a County hospital.


It says in Revelation 13 that the Second Beast, the false prophet, will cause all " Both small and great, both rich and poor, both free and slave, to be marked on the right hand or the forehead." Rev. 13:16 So who is the "second beast"? I am under the impression that he has not made his appearance yet. According to Revelation, neither the antichrist or false prophet is a country.

None of us, other than you, are concerned or have really uncomfortable feelings about it. We are led by the Holy Spirit and I have no doubt that if the driver's license were the "Mark of the Beast", many of us would have a real uneasiness about getting one. Christian persecution would have begun with that refusal and this country would be in real chaos. Also, as we are definitely being desensitized to the number 666, where is it in the driver's license. Maybe hidden but I think it will be in the open at that time because we are seeing it in addresses, license plates, etc. I think it will come at a time and in a way that people won't take notice so there would be no need to hide it.

The driver's license is not necessarily held in the right hand. Some people are left handed. So it has nothing to do with the right hand or forehead. The picture may have some kind of identification computer technology which I don't understand, maybe they use the "right eye" for that special identification they are using now. But I still believe that God would warn us about the DL or that the Holy Spirit would cause an uneasiness, even vomiting or something over getting it.

DHS may call it a "mark" but that could also be a desensitization to the word as the real "Mark" may be down the pike. There are increased cameras everywhere and I think they want a method of ID that can be seen on camera. That way they can catch everyone who doesn't have one, like us. With a card, they will not be able to know who doesn't have the MARK unless the police stop us for something or we are reported by someone.

So I don't think we are in the Tribulation period yet. The antichrist and false prophet are not present though they are on the horizon and it's the false prophet who will institute the Mark. As of this time, I really believe that if the driver's license were a threat to God's people we would have been told.

In your comments about Illegal Aliens, I think you are ignoring the fact that they are here illegally. They do not learn the language, many times living in squalor with many people living together in small apartments or even garages. They are paid very low wages because the employer knows they're illegal and that they can't do anything about what they are paid. They spend whatever they make on falsified identification. The crime rate is high wherever there is a large population of illegal immigrants. Many are very good and hard working people but they need to come here legally instead of breaking our laws. And the number one issue I have with them is that they do not care about this country. They fly the Mexican flag over the U.S. flag. They vote illegally and vote for whoever will give them the most money or freebies. I am in favor of allowing those who have been here many years to stay but I am in favor of a fence to keep them out if they won't do the right thing. I feel they are a drain on the federal government and change the outcome of our political races which makes the voices of people who disagree, null and void.

As far as homosexuality is concerned. It is not the same thing as adultery. We as Christians and as humans are wired certain ways. We all have an issue that really touches our hearts more than others. And we have a right to fight for what we believe in. Some may be concerned about the changes in this society or the fact that homosexuality is being forced down our throats or about moral issues in general. For me, it is abortion. We represent Jesus and so to ignore the state of others' souls and the moral state of our country would be wrong. Yes, illegal immigrants are poor and they do get help, a LOT of help but they will always be poor because they came here illegally. They broke the laws. If I broke a law, I'd expect to not only be punished by the legal system but also by God. Their poverty is a punishment in a sense because they did things the wrong way. What do we do when we choose the wrong way? We repent and we make things right.

 

[Jeraxel]

First off, thank you for your response.
In writing the above, I tried to skip a lot of detail or I cold have written for pages, so let me go back with a bit of greater depth in some areas to answer you. Let me start with the most important and then get into the details.

I agree with you about some things but the driver's license, though it's a means of obtaining money for the state and city, people do have to take a driving test to get one and that makes me feel a little safer. The driver's license has been a means of identifying victims of accidents, etc. and has been used for a very long time.

I don't have an issue with having a drivers license. I have an issue with world wide collection of internationally uniform biometric data, this is exactly what the bible warns us against. The drivers license is being used as an excuse to collect those biometrics, so is E-Verify, and now they are even fighting over requiring a biometrics Facial Recognition photo for your voter registration card.

Their whole point is not to make things more secure, nor is it to make it uniform, its to make it possible to track you by collecting everyone’s biometrics. If you upset the wrong person, say like Edward Snowden did, they just shut off your ID and you cease to exist. A person who no longer legally exists is NOT granted any of the legal protections of our constitution. Rights that the Constitution states are “God given” and no one may take away.

Hopefully this points out the danger of what is going on right now.
If the Nazi's had a system like the one we are implementing, not a single Jew or POW would have be able to escape from Germany alive. Everyone who reads this, Christian or not, needs to start writing your state reps and demanding that this collection, storage, and sharing of biometrics be abolished.

first of all, the "futurism" you described is written in the Books of Daniel, Thessalonians and Revelation, with a few others mentioning it like Ezekiel and Luke, etc. They didn't need to be written by any theologian, unless he was just giving a concise statement to describe it. I don't understand at all what you mean by "counter-Reformation propaganda". It is Scriptural.

What is written in Daniel, Revelation, etc. is open to interpretation, so the three schools I mention are the most prevalent schools in how to interpret the prophecies. Two of these schools where written by the Roman Catholic Jesuit Order under direct orders from the Council of Trent. One of this Councils primary functions was to organize a defense to the Protestant Reformation. Martin Luther was spreading the word that the Pope was the Antichrist, and as such the Catholic Church had to prove there was no way that could be the case. In order to do that, they came up with the schools of Futurism and Preterism. From Wikipedia:

In order to remove the papacy of the Catholic Church from consideration as the Antichrist (as an act of countering the Protestant Reformation), Ribera began writing a lengthy (500 page) commentary in 1585 on the Book of Revelation (Apocalypse) titled In Sacrum Beati Ioannis Apostoli, & Evangelistiae Apocalypsin Commentarij, proposing that the first few chapters of the Apocalypse apply to ancient pagan Rome, and the rest he limited to a yet future period of 3½ literal years, immediately prior to the second coming. During that time, the Roman Catholic Church would have fallen away from the pope into apostasy because of the Reformation cry stating that "the papacy is the seat of the true and real Antichrist." (Martin Luther, Aug. 18, 1520).

Sorry, I cannot give you a link, I don't have enough posts under my belt to allow that yet.

The Scripture in Revelation states that the antichrist will be a man.

The antichrist is NEVER mentioned in the book of Revelation. The word in not even in the text. You see, that is how effectively that Futurist propaganda has been implanted in peoples heads, folks actually believe that things are written in prophecy that aren't even there.

This happened because Futurism, which I assume is what your familiar with based on your response here, teaches that the “little Horn” of Daniel, the “Man of Sin”, and the “Beasts” are all the same entity, and in truth that is not the case at all. The bible makes no such connection as to them being one persona.

As a matter of fact, the bible says there will be MANY antichrists, and that anyone who denies Christ is an antichrist.

I think that most disagreements between Christians has to do with the Rapture, which you didn't even mention.

There is no “rapture” in Historicism, the rapture is the final judgment. Its Christian “wishful thinking” for which there is no scriptural basis, and again the word is not even in the Bible itself.

Historicism teaches that the entire “age of the church” or “age of the gentiles” is encompassed in prophecy. Some of what is talked about in Revelation and other books was the persecution of Christians throughout history, and especially of protestant Christians under the inquisition. God didn't miraculously whisk away Christians being burnt at the stake, quartered, sawn, etc... by the inquisition, so believing that somehow modern day Christians are going to escape any sort of future tribulation is simply “wishful thinking”.

Again, only futurism teaches a “future” tribulation period anyway, historicism teaches that the entire period from 70ad until the return of Christ is all the tribulation period.

But we mostly agree that the antichrist will be a man, a leader. I have, in the past, wondered if it was a certain religion which would rise to power but as I said, the Bible states it will be a man.

1 John 2:18 - Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

1 John 2:22 - Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

2 John 1:7 - For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

1 John 4:3 - And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that [spirit] of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

The "Little horn", "Man of Sin", and "son of perdition", were all believed to be the “Holy Pontiff” (Pontifex Maximus) by the original protestant fathers (Luther, Calvin, Wesley, even the Westminster Confession of Faith states this)

There is good reason for this as well. If you look at the "duties" of the Pontifex Maximus, a title held by emperors until Flavius Gratianus Augustus, who surrendered the title around 380 due to its being: "unbefitting a Christian", then was taken by the Popes starting with Pope Damasus I.

What Daniel 7 says about the "little horn":
think to change times
and laws
he shall speak great words against the most High
make war with the saints

Some of the primary Duties of the Pontifex maximus:
Set the Calendar (we still use a calendar set by a pope)
Set Jus Divinum or Divine Law
Speak with "papal" authority as the Vicar of God on earth (Proclamations of emperors were also held to be divine)
Prosecute and punish those no in accordance with church (including protestant Christians under the inquisition)

My point is don't “clump” all these prophetic characters together into one persona because the Bible does not support that. Only Jesuit Futurism teaches reading prophecy in that manner, and they were teaching it that way due to an agenda of covering for their own presence in the prophecy itself.

Look this up in Wikipedia or an Encyclopedia, this is history not “theory”.

Yeah, we did use the first nuclear weapon of war, but I think that you are not focusing at all on who we used it against.

The Bible doesn't support or condemn the beast for “calling fire down”, or its reasons for doing so. It simply states that it will be a sign of who the beast is, and that after this happens “the whole world will wonder after it”.

If you think about it, from the end of WWII, until now, the US has been the world leader at pretty much everything. Whether it be technology, the space race, military, etc... For a long time after WWII, the US could do no wrong in world opinion, we were the “shining pinnacle” of progress, technology, peace, and worldly standard of living. When another country got into trouble, they expected us to come to their rescue. The Whole world “wonders” after us, that is, until possibly in recent times when the world seems to be rightfully becoming more critical of our actions.

Can you tell me what Scripture John Wesley used to cause him to think that a meek country would start up around 1760? I mean, how did he come up with that? Was he clairvoyant?

He was following the Scripture regarding the 42 month religious/political reign of the “Little Horn”:

“Another . . . beast .... But he is not yet come, though he cannot be far off; for he is to appear at the end of the forty-two months of the first beast. And he had two horns like a lamb–a mild, innocent appearance”.

I underlined the part where he explains how he came to this calculation. As I stated above, the title of the Pontifex Maximus was transferred from the Roman Emperors to the Bishops of Rome around 380 AD. The Power of that Title came a bit later during the rule of Justinian I around 530 AD.

From Wikipedia:

To accomplish this, Ribera proposed that the 1260 days and 42 months and 3½ times of prophecy were not 1260 years as based on the year-day principle (Numbers 14:34 and Ezekiel 4:6), but a literal 3½ years, hence preventing the arrival of the deduction of (i) the 1260 years to be related to the Dark Ages (according to the Historicism (Christianity) interpretation of eschatology from 538 A.D. when the papal power was fully established in Rome until its political blow in 1798 A.D., when Louis-Alexandre Berthier the general of Napoleon captured pope Pius VI as prisoner to Valence, France) and (ii) the Antichrist to be related to papacy.

So this further proves that Wesley was following, and believed in, Historicism. He was following the time line of the 42 month Political reign of the Popes, and based on his knowledge of the scripture was able to predict what would happen almost 38 years after he put pen to paper.

That in itself should be wake-up call as to the scriptural correctness of the school of Historicism vs that of other schools.

And yes, we have become an evil nation due to the leaders we have chosen in the last two administrations. But there are communist countries and countries which have elected terrorist dictators, as well as countries in the EU which have a very bloody past and murdered many of God's people. I realize that we are the most powerful country which has become the police of the world whereas there are countries which are just as powerful and yet they mind their own business

I understand that this might be hard to swallow at first, but give it some thought.

First off, the US is not a Democracy, we never were. We are a oligarchical Republic, the same a the Roman Empire. As a matter of fact many historians have said that you could take a US citizen, and transfer them back to the Roman Empire, and they would be quite comfortable (minus losing obvious technological comforts). Would you say that the Roman Empire was a “good” nation in the eyes of God?

We have gone to great extents to force our systems of government, capitalism, and morality on the rest of the world. The problem is that its a worldly system, a system based on greed, corruption, usury, and many other things that are against the will of God. Capitalism is nothing more then an excuse for “worldly greed”, and what is God's stance on being worldly?
What is Gods feelings on Usury?
Isn't our entire central banking scheme just a Usury scam?
Where does God feel you should put your trust for your safety?
Was Christ a capitalist, or did he live a life of poverty living from a “common” purse?
How did he respond to the “money changers” in the temple?

You see where the government, and our system is becoming diametrically opposed to the will of God?

 

[Jeraxel]

But NONE of the Bible scholars have stated what you have just stated about the last beast. Many of them are focused on the EU and some are focused on the Middle East and "the Assyrian".

The Seventh Day Adventists are one of the few remaining religions that properly teach historicism. The only gripe I have with their teaching on the subject is that they believe “Sunday keeping” to be the mark, as opposed to an actual “mark” ID system. As I said, throughout history, most all the protestant founders believed in historicism, even Sir Issac Newton was a historicist, and if that is still not enough evidence...

"Horae Apocalypticae (Hours with the Apocalypse) is doubtless the most elaborate work ever produced on the Apocalypse. Without an equal in exhaustive research in its field, it was occasioned by the futurist attack on the Historical School of interpretation. Begun in 1837, its 2,500 pages are buttressed by some 10,000 invaluable references to ancient and modern works. It ran through five editions (1844, 1846, 1847, 1851 and 1862)."[1] In 1868 he published a Postscript to comment on the events, or perceived lack of events, marking the prophetically significant years, 1865/7.

The most exhaustive and comprehensive modern writing on the topic of Christian Eschatology supports Historicism, and was written to counter Futurism.

It says in Revelation 13 that the Second Beast, the false prophet, will cause all " Both small and great, both rich and poor, both free and slave, to be marked on the right hand or the forehead." Rev. 13:16 So who is the "second beast"? I am under the impression that he has not made his appearance yet. According to Revelation, neither the antichrist or false prophet is a country.

The first beast is Rome, and it is made up of the preceding beasts in Daniel. Rome used to conquer countries and ingest part of their systems, cultures, and beliefs into itself.
The Second beast is the United States, which is based on the Roman Beast that came before it.
Again, nowhere in the book of Revelation is the word “antichrist” ever written.

None of us, other than you, are concerned or have really uncomfortable feelings about it. We are led by the Holy Spirit and I have no doubt that if the driver's license were the "Mark of the Beast", many of us would have a real uneasiness about getting one.

There are a number of people who have a “great uneasiness” about getting one, and some are legally battling with the states about it, but are being quietly dismissed. Remember that the Bible says there will be a “great deception” and a “great falling away”, a deception so great that even the “very elect” may be fooled by it. Also remember that according to Revelation “everyone” will be “forced” into this system, that possibly means that no one living today is going to be able to avoid it and survive. There is “predestination” in the bible, maybe everyone living today (including myself) is doomed to end up with this thing or dead.

desensitized to the number 666, where is it in the driver's license. Maybe hidden but I think it will be in the open at that time because we are seeing it in addresses, license plates, etc. I think it will come at a time and in a way that people won't take notice so there would be no need to hide it.

People have argued over this ad infinitum, and it never gets anywhere. I am looking at the description of what the mark does compared to anything that it can possibly be. The only thing that fits it 100% in history is the Real ID. BTW, biometrics do break you down into a unique “number” of digital measurements, making it the “number of a man”. Does it contain the numbers 666 in it? Unless you can get a hold of the detailed format for biometric storage and conversion, its impossible to say.

The driver's license is not necessarily held in the right hand. Some people are left handed. So it has nothing to do with the right hand or forehead.

Your head or hand is IN the system, and you are given a “mark” for being part of that system. The Greek word for “IN” is “EPI” and can also mean “based upon”. So it can also be a “mark” that is given based upon your “head or hand” (facial recognition or fingerprints). You can ditch a card, you can cut out an implanted RFID chip, you can have a tattoo surgically removed, but you cannot remove your information from their database once they have it.

There are increased cameras everywhere and I think they want a method of ID that can be seen on camera.

Your face becomes your ID, no card required. The card is just an excuse to get you to give them your biometrics. Since I cannot link you to somewhere that explains how this system works, I'll do my best to explain it again...

Your photo is taken by a high resolution camera, its run through a piece of software that takes measurements of specific areas of your face on that photo. That then becomes a unique number, and is entered into a field on your record in the database. NOW, when you cross by a camera that is networked into the system, the camera runs the same calculation on your facial measurements, it gets the same number, and it runs a query against the database. That brings up your record, and they can tell if you have a valid ID, if your in the system, if you have any outstanding warrants, if your license plate is expired, your criminal record, etc... It brings up your entire record of everything that the government has collected on you over the years and placed in that database. It also knows where the camera is located, so it knows where you have been (tracking).

they will not be able to know who doesn't have the MARK unless the police stop us for something or we are reported by someone.

If the camera runs a query against the database, and fails to return a valid record, they know you don't have a card, and aren't in the system.

In your comments about Illegal Aliens, I think you are ignoring the fact that they are here illegally.

So you're saying that you believe that when God created the Earth he placed little borders all over it and said: “You go here, where you'll live in a third world country and will eat dirt all the days of your life... You on the other hand will live on this side of the line, and be in a first world country where you get to have air conditioning and shopping malls!..”

These are man made laws, and man made boarders.

God is very specific that we are to treat foreigners (sometimes referred to in the bible as “aliens”) BETTER then ourselves, not write laws to punish them for being born in areas less blessed than we are.

Again, show me where in the bible it says its okay to think poorly of, or treat someone with any less respect because of what side of a man made border they were born on? Last I checked it says just the opposite.

As far as homosexuality is concerned. It is not the same thing as adultery.

Adultery, Homosexuality, abortion, lying, murder, stealing, etc... These are all the same in the eyes of God, they are all equally sins and doom us to hell.

God does not “rank” sin, humans are the ones who do that. In the eyes of God, murder is the same as “bearing false witness”. Homosexuality is essentially nothing more or less than fornication, having sex outside of wedlock for personal pleasure.

We represent Jesus and so to ignore the state of others' souls and the moral state of our country would be wrong.

I'm pretty sure Christ said otherwise:

Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.- Matthew 7:5

In other words, mind your own business, worry about your own sins, and let God handle what they are doing. I mean, how horribly hypocritical, you are a sinner, just like they are, without Christ you are Damned just like they are, who are you to judge anyone? You cannot save yourself, and you cannot save them. Your sins are just as horrific in the eyes of God as any serial killer sitting on death row.

Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.
- Matthew 7:1-5

They broke the laws. If I broke a law, I'd expect to not only be punished by the legal system but also by God. Their poverty is a punishment in a sense because they did things the wrong way. What do we do when we choose the wrong way?

Please show me chapter and verse in the bible where God gave America to the US government by divine right? Show me where he gave any land to any government outside of Israel? Ownership of land was a practice started by the descendents of Cain in Nod, shortly after followed by theft and murder.
So are you telling me that the government cannot pass a law the conflicts with the laws of God?
So what happens if a government does so?
Since when does breaking the laws of man constitute a sin?
I speeding a sin?
How about not paying your taxes?

 

[RDGSr]

Welcome, Jewaxel,
I marvel at how inteligent these on this forum seem to be.
There are many here who love to be...arguementative.
I like Jack Van Impe's thing where he agrees with Luther and Calvin that the two legged monument are the Muslims and ... His Words in our mouths.
I lost most when I had the stroke; so don't rely too much on me.

 

[Psalm 91]

The Seventh Day Adventists are one of the few remaining religions that properly teach historicism. The only gripe I have with their teaching on the subject is that they believe “Sunday keeping” to be the mark, as opposed to an actual “mark” ID system. As I said, throughout history, most all the protestant founders believed in historicism, even Sir Issac Newton was a historicist, and if that is still not enough evidence...

The most exhaustive and comprehensive modern writing on the topic of Christian Eschatology supports Historicism, and was written to counter Futurism.



The first beast is Rome, and it is made up of the preceding beasts in Daniel. Rome used to conquer countries and ingest part of their systems, cultures, and beliefs into itself.
The Second beast is the United States, which is based on the Roman Beast that came before it.
Again, nowhere in the book of Revelation is the word “antichrist” ever written.



There are a number of people who have a “great uneasiness” about getting one, and some are legally battling with the states about it, but are being quietly dismissed. Remember that the Bible says there will be a “great deception” and a “great falling away”, a deception so great that even the “very elect” may be fooled by it. Also remember that according to Revelation “everyone” will be “forced” into this system, that possibly means that no one living today is going to be able to avoid it and survive. There is “predestination” in the bible, maybe everyone living today (including myself) is doomed to end up with this thing or dead.



People have argued over this ad infinitum, and it never gets anywhere. I am looking at the description of what the mark does compared to anything that it can possibly be. The only thing that fits it 100% in history is the Real ID. BTW, biometrics do break you down into a unique “number” of digital measurements, making it the “number of a man”. Does it contain the numbers 666 in it? Unless you can get a hold of the detailed format for biometric storage and conversion, its impossible to say.



Your head or hand is IN the system, and you are given a “mark” for being part of that system. The Greek word for “IN” is “EPI” and can also mean “based upon”. So it can also be a “mark” that is given based upon your “head or hand” (facial recognition or fingerprints). You can ditch a card, you can cut out an implanted RFID chip, you can have a tattoo surgically removed, but you cannot remove your information from their database once they have it.



Your face becomes your ID, no card required. The card is just an excuse to get you to give them your biometrics. Since I cannot link you to somewhere that explains how this system works, I'll do my best to explain it again...

Your photo is taken by a high resolution camera, its run through a piece of software that takes measurements of specific areas of your face on that photo. That then becomes a unique number, and is entered into a field on your record in the database. NOW, when you cross by a camera that is networked into the system, the camera runs the same calculation on your facial measurements, it gets the same number, and it runs a query against the database. That brings up your record, and they can tell if you have a valid ID, if your in the system, if you have any outstanding warrants, if your license plate is expired, your criminal record, etc... It brings up your entire record of everything that the government has collected on you over the years and placed in that database. It also knows where the camera is located, so it knows where you have been (tracking).



If the camera runs a query against the database, and fails to return a valid record, they know you don't have a card, and aren't in the system.



So you're saying that you believe that when God created the Earth he placed little borders all over it and said: “You go here, where you'll live in a third world country and will eat dirt all the days of your life... You on the other hand will live on this side of the line, and be in a first world country where you get to have air conditioning and shopping malls!..”

These are man made laws, and man made boarders.

God is very specific that we are to treat foreigners (sometimes referred to in the bible as “aliens”) BETTER then ourselves, not write laws to punish them for being born in areas less blessed than we are.

Again, show me where in the bible it says its okay to think poorly of, or treat someone with any less respect because of what side of a man made border they were born on? Last I checked it says just the opposite.


Adultery, Homosexuality, abortion, lying, murder, stealing, etc... These are all the same in the eyes of God, they are all equally sins and doom us to hell.

God does not “rank” sin, humans are the ones who do that. In the eyes of God, murder is the same as “bearing false witness”. Homosexuality is essentially nothing more or less than fornication, having sex outside of wedlock for personal pleasure.



I'm pretty sure Christ said otherwise:

In other words, mind your own business, worry about your own sins, and let God handle what they are doing. I mean, how horribly hypocritical, you are a sinner, just like they are, without Christ you are Damned just like they are, who are you to judge anyone? You cannot save yourself, and you cannot save them. Your sins are just as horrific in the eyes of God as any serial killer sitting on death row.




Please show me chapter and verse in the bible where God gave America to the US government by divine right? Show me where he gave any land to any government outside of Israel? Ownership of land was a practice started by the descendents of Cain in Nod, shortly after followed by theft and murder.
So are you telling me that the government cannot pass a law the conflicts with the laws of God?
So what happens if a government does so?
Since when does breaking the laws of man constitute a sin?
I speeding a sin?
How about not paying your taxes?

Are you an anarchist? We are a republic surrounded by borders. We have no problem accepting people from other countries if they follow our immigration laws. People cannot just come in and out when they feel like it. It has to do with health and safety for the people who live here. You sound as if you are suggesting we just let anyone in. That is irresponsible. We have laws and we need to keep order in the towns and cities of our country. Do you think you would have let those illegal aliens who killed the farmer in Arizona just walk right over the border? They did and they did it illegally and an innocent farmer is dead. I think you are saying we should just have roads for them to walk or drive right into the country. That is just plain dangerous. And it is unfair to those who have entered legally.

If the settlers in this country landed here and won a war for their freedom and independence, then God gave them this country. And the government has already passed laws that conflict with the laws of God: abortion, gay marriage, eminent domain, etc. I believe that speeding is a sin and I believe that not paying your taxes is a sin. You endanger other lives when you speed and the law has deemed a certain speed limit to be safe for a certain type of road. Though I question the proper ratification of the income tax, we are required to pay it and Scripture says that we are to render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's...


And to answer your Scripture about treating foreigners better, we do treat the illegal aliens better than we treat ourselves.

I didn't appreciate your accusation of me as judging sinners. Even Christians are to speak to other Christians when they are in sin. The Scripture says so and if the friend won't listen, we are to take another Christian with us to speak to him... I personally don't care that you want to live without limits in this world. But I resent being called a hypocrite simply because I identify immorality and wrong living at the same time that we are all sinners. There is a difference. I try to live the right way and I am convicted by the Holy Spirit when I have sinned and I repent immediately for it. That is a huge difference.

The other things you have said are very, very strange IMO but I will think about them. I think it's better to follow the Word of God rather than books written by men.

 

[Jeraxel]

Are you an anarchist?

No.

We are a republic surrounded by borders. We have no problem accepting people from other countries if they follow our immigration laws. People cannot just come in and out when they feel like it. It has to do with health and safety for the people who live here. You sound as if you are suggesting we just let anyone in.

So you're a Native American then?
Did your ancestors legally come into this country, or steal it from its indigenous population then put them to death? Oh well, I guess that you have no more God granted right to be here then the guys down in Mexico then.

As a matter of fact, many people from Central and South America have more of a birth right to this land than you or I do. Many of them are descendants to the original indigenous people of this land.

We have laws and we need to keep order in the towns and cities of our country.

We've had laws, which the government refused to enforce, and now they want to make more laws because the original laws supposedly didn't work. Its an excuse to make it impossible to be employed in this country without surrendering your biometrics. There have been guys arguing to get this system in place going back to the Reagan Administration...

You know what Reagan had to say about it when the issue of a National ID card due to immigration came up during his administration?

According to Martin Anderson, the White House domestic policy adviser at the time, Reagan blurted out “My god, that’s the mark of the beast.” As Anderson wrote, “that was the end of the national identification card” during the Reagan years.

Do you think you would have let those illegal aliens who killed the farmer in Arizona just walk right over the border? They did and they did it illegally and an innocent farmer is dead.

I guess you're saying that you should put your faith in the government, and its laws, for your safety rather than in God.

Lets just go back to Theology 101 here:
First commandment: Thou shalt have no other gods before me...

You know I also believe that Christ said:

Luke 6:35 - “But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return, and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, for he is kind to the ungrateful and the evil.”

Matthew 5:39 - “But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also”

If the settlers in this country landed here and won a war for their freedom and independence, then God gave them this country.

So you believe that God told our ancestors to come here, steal the land from the American Indians, put them on reservations that were little better then concentration camps, then send them on a forced death march across half the country so he could GIVE us this country?

Sixth commandment: thou shalt not kill.
Eighth commandment: Thou shalt not steal.
Tenth commandment: Thou shalt not covet anything that is thy neighbors.

I believe that speeding is a sin and I believe that not paying your taxes is a sin.

It's very likely driving is a sin to begin with due to its damaging the environment, and requiring resources that are exploited from other people around the globe...But speeding...Hm, not any more of a sin then driving in general, its not even a crime, its only a citation. It's certainly does not fall under any of the Ten Commandments.

The reason why we are a First World Nation is because we have been successful in exploiting labor, and resources from other nations. We call this “Capitalism”, but God would simply call it “greed”, “coveting”, and “theft”.

When you see someone that is rich, you might say, “hey, that person is really blessed”, where the reality is that you only get more by causing someone else to have less.

So I believe that its possible that driving in general may be a sin, especially if the vehicle is bought out of pride (as a status symbol), selfishness, or envy (coveting your neighbors).

Though I question the proper ratification of the income tax, we are required to pay it and Scripture says that we are to render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's...

That is true, but it also says that Usury is wrong.
All income tax in the US goes to the Federal Reserve (a group of private bankers) to service the usury debt they placed on the fiat money when it was created out of “thin air”. Its all 100% theft. A “ponzi scheme” that was foisted on the US public while the congress was on leave for a holiday.

Again though, there is no commandment that “not paying your taxes” would fall under unless you did it maybe out of selfishness. Heck, 100 years ago there wasn't any income tax in this country.

BTW... God also is not in favor of census's either, let alone tracking and spying on your entire population. God gave us free will for a reason, he put the “Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil” in the garden for a reason. Now some folks are seeking to remove those freedoms from us despite the fact that God obviously found it important to grant them. I believe that “free will” is part of the “test” that life is for us, and by removing that from us they are going directly against the will of God.

Even Christians are to speak to other Christians when they are in sin. The Scripture says so and if the friend won't listen, we are to take another Christian with us to speak to him...

Yes they are, but that is not the same as judging them. Only God can read a mans heart, and whether or not he repents his sins.

But I resent being called a hypocrite simply because I identify immorality and wrong living at the same time that we are all sinners.

John 8 - 3 The scribes and the Pharisees brought a woman caught in adultery, and having set her in the center of the court, 4they said to Him, “Teacher, this woman has been caught in adultery, in the very act. 5“Now in the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women; what then do You say?” 6They were saying this, testing Him, so that they might have grounds for accusing Him. But Jesus stooped down and with His finger wrote on the ground. 7But when they persisted in asking Him, He straightened up, and said to them, “He who is without sin among you, let him be the first to throw a stone at her.” 8Again He stooped down and wrote on the ground. 9When they heard it, they began to go out one by one, beginning with the older ones, and He was left alone, and the woman, where she was, in the center of the court. 10Straightening up, Jesus said to her, “Woman, where are they? Did no one condemn you?” 11She said, “No one, Lord.” And Jesus said, “I do not condemn you, either. Go. From now on sin no more.”

I think it's better to follow the Word of God rather than books written by men.

Laws are books written by men.

 

[Psalm 91]

Well, if you know it all, then you don't want to hear anyone's opinion. Fine.

 

[Jeraxel]

I honestly don't mean to upset you or sound rude, but I came here because I understood this was the largest christian discussion forum on the net. I assumed that I would be debated on the topic using sound scriptural doctrine. I believe I even mention in the OP that using Futurism would be unhelpful as I already know that school of eschatology VERY well, and reject it.


Its going to take being able to backup claims to prove to me that I am incorrect here. I have spent way to much time and effort on this. I am that sure in my convictions. Enough so as to have not had a license for 3 years now. Think about that for a second, most people struggle giving up chocolate for lent, now try three years without driving.


As far as laws and such are concerned: Yes, God allows governments to exist, and to implement laws, as long as they are JUST laws. Laws that do not contradict the commands of God. Creating unjust laws for control, or as an excuse to be unkind to your neighbor is opposed to the commandments of God. After all the ten commandments can be simplified to two: “Love thy neighbor as thyself, and Love God above all”. Spreading fear (what about the illegals who come across the boarder and kill people?) is still not justification to treat your neighbor poorly, and is not a proper Christian attitude. I believe we are to love our neighbor, even if they may cause you harm, and you are to put your trust in God to keep you safe. Putting your faith in the government, and its laws, is replacing God with the government.


I assume that you realize there are governments out there that outlaw the belief in, and teaching of, Christianity. Would you still believe in that instance you should “give unto Caesar what is Caesars”? If you were in such a country, would you trust in God to protect you in the face of hostility and those who may wish to cause you harm, or would you do as the government orders? That situation is really no different than what I was explaining above.

 

[Chicken Little]

Isa 23:17

And it shall come to pass after the end of seventy years, that the LORD will visit Tyre, and she shall turn to her hire, and shall commit fornication with all the kingdoms of the world upon the face of the earth.
Isa 23:18

And her merchandise and her hire shall be holiness to the LORD: it shall not be treasured nor laid up; for her merchandise shall be for them that dwell before the LORD, to eat sufficiently, and for durable clothing.


seems you don't know him or his plan very well.
you need to study more.
those nations who are hungry are hungry because the people and the leaders allow usurping their neighbors, theft , bribery , rape murder and the like. He can't bless them or he would , he would let it rain on them so their crop were good if he could and if they wanted him to do it . so stop blaming and accusing us because of a one time abundance just because they lack.
one is not related to the other at all.
now that here they stole some of it from natives that they now mock and lie about !
now that will be up for discussion in a future setting I promise .
but obviously you don't understand his blessings and the cursing Of God .
I suggest you ask him about it.
mostly just stop asking people about it.
because in this system there is no one greedier than the leaders of a people , than the people voted them in.

 

[tulc]

Isn't this more of an eschatology thread?
tulc(just a thought)

 

[Crowns&Laurels]

First off, I am a Lutheran, and the Lutheran Church is not very vocal on their stances regarding the “End times”.

They believe the Roman Church is the Idolatress of Babylon. Luther was so convinced of this that he made it a literal decree of his faith.

No doubt they are not going to be vocal about it.

 

[thunderbyrd]

when it comes to Bible prophecy, being rigid in one's beliefs is the cause of much strife.